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| mithro | nash: ping? | 04:58 |
|---|---|---|
| mithro | ~tpb seen nash | 04:58 |
| tpb | I don't have a clue, mithro. | 04:58 |
| nash | mithro: Yo | 04:59 |
| mithro | hey nash | 04:59 |
| mithro | just replied to your email | 04:59 |
| nash | I saw - want replies here or on list? | 05:00 |
| mithro | nash: list is generally better | 05:01 |
| nash | cool | 05:01 |
| nash | For the record however, I do think you guys actually have a hell of a lot more on the website then most other projects... | 05:01 |
| mithro | btw if you have time could you read the "[tp-devel] An idea about new web site structure" thread? | 05:02 |
| nash | Linky? | 05:03 |
| mithro | http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/pipermail.php/tp-devel/2006-December/000247.html | 05:04 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/I81> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 05:04 |
| * nash shall | 05:05 | |
| nash | mithro: No real comments - looks reasonable. Unfortunately websites are more in the implementation then the design. | 05:14 |
| mithro | do you think it would help at all? | 05:16 |
| nash | Possibly. However it may hinder in the transition time. It takes a long time to redesign and update websites, and things tend to get unmaintained during the transition. I think it would be better to improve what is there. | 05:17 |
| mithro | nash: well it's more a reorg then a change - would be done in 1 weekend when i get time | 05:18 |
| nash | But you could do a lot of other stuff in that weekend correct? | 05:19 |
| nash | If you have a web monkey on the team - great. But it's a waste of time for your code and other monkeys. | 05:19 |
| mithro | nash: well my time is best spent getting people to join the project | 05:20 |
| nash | Get things to a point for a one-click download and install first - sod the other stuff, then worry about the other things | 05:22 |
| nash | You don't want to get people interested, try it, get annoyed and never come back. | 05:22 |
| mithro | well I have to admit it's loads easier under Mac and Linux | 05:33 |
| * nash is a linux user... | 05:33 | |
| mithro | just a normal download and run program | 05:33 |
| * nash would hate to try and do as a win32 user... | 05:34 | |
| nash | mithro: Enjoy ;-) | 05:54 |
| mithro | nash: so why did you start with the darcs versions? :P | 05:56 |
| nash | mithro: Multiple reasons... | 05:57 |
| nash | a) I'm (allegedly) a professional developer... this should be easy... | 05:58 |
| nash | b) I expect I will want to get newer versions - not just wait for releases | 05:58 |
| nash | I generally follow a rule if apt-get doesn't work, I want the revision control version | 05:58 |
| nash | c) I was thinking I may want to fiddle and send upstream | 05:59 |
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| mithro | Install, using YUM, apt-get, or other | 06:01 |
| mithro | * Python | 06:01 |
| mithro | * wxPython 2.6 | 06:01 |
| mithro | * PIL | 06:01 |
| mithro | * Numeric or NumArray | 06:01 |
| mithro | Then | 06:01 |
| mithro | mkdir tp | 06:01 |
| mithro | cd tp | 06:01 |
| mithro | darcs get --partial http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/scratchpad | 06:01 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/FE6> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 06:02 |
| mithro | darcs get --partial http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/libtpproto-py | 06:02 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/FE5> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 06:02 |
| mithro | darcs get --partial http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/libtpclient-py | 06:02 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/FE4> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 06:02 |
| mithro | darcs get --partial http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/tpclient-pywx | 06:02 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/FE3> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 06:02 |
| mithro | cd scratchpad | 06:02 |
| mithro | sh setup.sh | 06:02 |
| mithro | cd .. | 06:02 |
| mithro | cd tpclient-pywx | 06:02 |
| mithro | ./tpclient-pywx | 06:02 |
| mithro | could you follow those instructions and tell me if it works? | 06:02 |
| nash | I don't have a clean setup anymore... | 06:02 |
| mithro | hrm... o well | 06:02 |
| mithro | that should get you a tpclient-pywx devel enviroment | 06:03 |
| nash | Put them in an email, and I'll try it on my wife's computer. | 06:03 |
| nash | I assume it should work fine on amd64? | 06:03 |
| nash | I can give you the result either tomorrow or Friday | 06:04 |
| nash | Is that okay? | 06:04 |
| mithro | sure | 06:04 |
| nash | :-) Thanks | 06:04 |
| mithro | nash: when the client starts up it should include requirements.py which should die with a sane error message | 06:06 |
| mithro | o btw | 06:07 |
| mithro | http://metaserver.thousandparsec.net/ | 06:07 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec : Metaserver Server Listing (at metaserver.thousandparsec.net) | 06:07 |
| nash | Cool | 06:08 |
| nash | BTW: What is the licencing on the TP logo? | 06:09 |
| mithro | I'm going to intergrate into the website sometime soon | 06:09 |
| nash | Sweet | 06:10 |
| mithro | nash: GPL, but it's an "unregistered trademark" in Australia and New Zealand | 06:10 |
| nash | So is it GPL or are you claiming a trademark on it? | 06:10 |
| mithro | GPL == copyright law != trademark law | 06:11 |
| mithro | basically you are free to modify it and use it as normal GPL | 06:12 |
| mithro | however it is covered by a trademark in Australia/New Zealand so you can't use it to advertise "as" Thousand Parsec. | 06:13 |
| mithro | kind of similar to the Firefox system (however Australia trademark law is a bit different to the US one) | 06:15 |
| mithro | laymen terms, If using it regards to Thousand Parsec - ask, otherwise do what you want | 06:16 |
| nash | Yes, but the trademark restricts the usage (same as a patent), which means it is "further restriction" thus meaning it is not under a GPL as written. | 06:18 |
| nash | I didn't think the firefox logo for instance was under GPL | 06:19 |
| mithro | nash: well, the GPL doesn't really deal well with trademark/patent stuff | 06:20 |
| mithro | specially where the distributor and trademark/patenter are different people | 06:21 |
| nash | Quite the opposite, the GPL is designed that any futher restrictions from any source are forbidden. | 06:21 |
| nash | This intentionally includes patents and trademarks | 06:21 |
| mithro | nash: say for example I patent "xyz", if you produce code which is covered by patent "xyz" what happens? | 06:22 |
| nash | Hence the recent spats over GPLv3, the mozilla logos http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/faq.html | 06:22 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/I89> (at www.mozilla.org) | 06:22 |
| nash | I'm in shit. However you miss the point. | 06:22 |
| nash | If you distribute "xyz" under GPL, then try to nab me for the patent, I turn around and tell you to sod off I have a licence. | 06:23 |
| nash | For the patent. | 06:23 |
| nash | Because if _you_ distributed it under GPL - you are licencing it for me to use. | 06:23 |
| mithro | nash: true (althought untested) | 06:23 |
| mithro | nash: but it's trademarked by MITHIS, and not redistrbuted by MITHIS | 06:24 |
| nash | Okay - so question 1: Who owns the copyright? | 06:25 |
| mithro | the copyright is owned by "zzorn" a guy in Finland | 06:25 |
| nash | Excellent, what licence does he distribute it under? | 06:26 |
| mithro | dual license, GPL + unexclusive rights to MITHIS | 06:27 |
| nash | So the file on website is being distrubited by? | 06:28 |
| mithro | Thousand Parsec | 06:28 |
| nash | Is that a legal entity? | 06:29 |
| mithro | depends on which Lawyer you talk to | 06:29 |
| nash | Does it have an address, an ABN or a birth certificate? | 06:29 |
| mithro | no, but Australian Law has some case law to deal with collaberating groups of people | 06:31 |
| mithro | but it's very ad-hoc | 06:31 |
| mithro | nash: but anyway, why do you care? | 06:31 |
| nash | Well two reasons: a) GPL, but trademarked doesn't make sense to me | 06:32 |
| nash | b) I wanted to include it in teh splash screen for my client/AI | 06:33 |
| mithro | nash: Copyright Law and trademark law is horrible anyway | 06:33 |
| mithro | b) Feel free to include it in your splash screen | 06:33 |
| mithro | c) or use it in anyway you see fit with a client which connects to thousand parsec servers | 06:35 |
| mithro | d) If it becomes a problem will it effect functionality of your software at all if you have to remove it? | 06:36 |
| nash | No, but it means I may need to recompile. And if it is under different terms I won't redistribute. | 06:36 |
| nash | The easiest thing to do is not use it all | 06:37 |
| mithro | nash: e) if you belive that your interpretation of the GPL is correct, then there may be a possibility it is | 06:38 |
| mithro | s/may be/may be a strong/ | 06:39 |
| mithro | I prefer to avoid licensing stuff, I try to keep everything GPL or LGPL | 06:40 |
| mithro | but after discussion with a lawyer I was told that I should put that line on the website | 06:41 |
| mithro | you could always do something like the tpclient-pywx splash? | 06:43 |
| mithro | anyway, I wish we could just use Kathy Seirra's terms "be nice" :P | 06:45 |
| nash | I'll agree with most of that. | 06:45 |
| mithro | anyway there are more important things to do, like code :P | 06:46 |
| nash | However my general rule is if there is a disagreement, I'll take the conservative route. Since you have said there may be trademark issues, I'll avoid teh trademark | 06:46 |
| nash | Indeed | 06:46 |
| nash | So what is the state of the two games then? | 06:47 |
| nash | minisec and minsec++? | 06:47 |
| mithro | MiniSec is completely implimented tpserver-py and tpserver-cpp | 06:47 |
| mithro | MTSec is semi-implimented in tpserver-cpp | 06:47 |
| nash | Right | 06:50 |
| mithro | btw did you end up getting tpclient-pywx-dev working? | 06:50 |
| mithro | or just tpclient-pywx? | 06:50 |
| * nash is connecting with his own client... | 06:51 | |
| nash | BUt only tried pywx, not -dev | 06:51 |
| mithro | -dev is a lot cooler :P | 06:51 |
| nash | I'll give it a look this weekend | 06:52 |
| nash | Out of curiousity what do the ID strings look like for the clients | 06:52 |
| mithro | hrm, not sure :P | 06:53 |
| nash | okay ;-) | 06:53 |
| * nash looks at differences between MTSec and minisec | 06:53 | |
| nash | Where does the "-sec" come from? | 06:54 |
| mithro | tpclient-pywx/%s.%s.%s libtpclient-py/%s.%s.%s libtpproto-py/%s.%s.%s | 06:55 |
| mithro | thats the tpclient-pywx one | 06:55 |
| nash | Ahh... one thing I'm not clear on in MTSec -are there unlim missiles on the ship, or is the ammo used? | 06:56 |
| mithro | nash: yet to be decided :P | 06:57 |
| nash | Right | 06:57 |
| mithro | MTSec never really got fully specced | 06:58 |
| nash | Explains why it isn't clear in teh doco then ;-) | 06:58 |
| nash | Is there another game to replace it? | 06:58 |
| mithro | not at the moment | 06:58 |
| mithro | I think we'll end up implimenting a version of MTSec | 06:58 |
| mithro | but at the moment I'm just trying to make the client easier to develop | 06:59 |
| mithro | i recently converted to xrc descriptions for the windows which has been really nice | 06:59 |
| mithro | and the new AUI should make it work nicer for many people | 07:01 |
| mithro | ouch MTSec was last updated in 2004 :/ | 07:01 |
| nash | Ouch | 07:03 |
| mithro | I'm working towards having something which a person can download and play with everything locally | 07:03 |
| nash | Hence the AI comp? | 07:03 |
| mithro | yes | 07:03 |
| * nash starts to understand | 07:04 | |
| mithro | we need something for players to play against | 07:04 |
| nash | Silly question however: If minisec is so simple, is it worth the bother? | 07:04 |
| * nash can't really see any depth to the game | 07:04 | |
| mithro | nash: well it exercises a large porition of the background technology | 07:05 |
| nash | Obviously exercises what you have got - but does it really exercise lots of what you will need? | 07:06 |
| mithro | once MiniSec works, making much more complicated games should be easy | 07:06 |
| nash | I thought minisec was done? | 07:06 |
| mithro | nash: it is "done", but it's highlighted problems like hard to install clients, etc | 07:06 |
| mithro | crappy UI interaction in tpclient-pywx | 07:07 |
| mithro | not enough testers to actually play a game | 07:07 |
| mithro | etc | 07:07 |
| nash | right | 07:07 |
| nash | Would it be better to dive on in and keep building however? | 07:07 |
| mithro | well, until we fix the other problems, making more complicated games will on exacibate the problem - plus we havn't had the time to impliment it | 07:08 |
| mithro | there have only been two real developers for the 4-5 years TP has been about | 07:09 |
| nash | My point being things get fixed quicker the more broken they are. Polish is never complete. | 07:09 |
| mithro | nash: I agree, but we really need more developers | 07:09 |
| mithro | (and users) | 07:10 |
| mithro | hopefully the AI comp will give us a little bit of publicity and attract developers | 07:12 |
| mithro | we are open to suggestions | 07:13 |
| nash | Start working on getting the server to do all of mtsec. Don't worry about warts. | 07:14 |
| nash | Make it more of a fun game. | 07:15 |
| nash | The little things to do p[age is good... however you may want to add more items which aren't programming related (which they mostly are unfortunately) | 07:18 |
| nash | Having said that... Yeah the AI comp is a good idea ;-) | 07:20 |
| mithro | cool | 07:21 |
| mithro | hopefully we will get a few extendable entries | 07:21 |
| nash | Well I'm hoping for at least one... | 07:23 |
| nash | back in a minute | 07:23 |
| nash | In protocol 3... What are the commands which aren't either S2C or C2S? | 07:33 |
| nash | Anyway - need to bail... drinkies to do. | 07:43 |
| nash | Talk to you later. | 07:43 |
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| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (8 files): | 09:02 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Non-blocking safe sends in PlayerTcpConnection: | 09:02 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Just need to make sure that PlayerHttpConnection is send non-blocking safe, and then | 09:02 |
| CIA-11 | tp: will enable non-blocking sockets for tp and http. | 09:02 |
| llnz | :-) | 09:02 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (playerconnection.cpp playerconnection.cpp): Set the default version in PlayerConnection | 09:52 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (18 files): | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: All writes in tp and http are now non-blocking safe, and buffer clearning fix: | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Fixed issues with ordering of buffer clearning when a TP protocol version is | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: detected, but can't tell what version. Clears the buffer before sending "fail, try | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: lower version" frame. | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Close now doesn't actually close if there is a frame in the sendqueue. | 10:00 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/playertcpconn.cpp : No need to check if sendqueue is empty, close does it for us | 10:05 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (playertcpconn.cpp playertcpconn.cpp): | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Made tp and http player connections non-blocking: | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: If you have any trouble with tp or http, please let me know, preferably with tpserver-cpp logs | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: and libtpproto-py debug output, or tcpdump log. | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Making these two player connection types makes the server immune to Denial of Service attacks | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: at the network buffer level from those two connection types. | 10:19 |
| llnz | mithro: ping? :-) | 10:19 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (avahi.cpp avahi.cpp avahi.cpp): | 10:49 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Improve avahi dns-sd publishing: | 10:49 |
| CIA-11 | tp: By using a AvahiStringList, I can add the optional fields if they are available. | 10:49 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Also added code to remove tphttp and tphttps services unless they are the only ones, | 10:49 |
| CIA-11 | tp: as on a local network, there is no need to publish them. | 10:49 |
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| llnz | hi tuna-fish- | 11:04 |
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| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/ (21 files in 2 dirs): | 11:33 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Set some sensible defaults if no command line parameters are given: | 11:33 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Turns the console logging on, and the logging level to Info and higher, so these | 11:33 |
| CIA-11 | tp: will have to be overridden by the default config file if it is used. | 11:33 |
| llnz | fuck | 11:33 |
| *** _JLP_ is now known as JLP | 11:45 | |
| JLP | good morning/evening all | 11:45 |
| llnz | hi JLP | 11:46 |
| llnz | grrr | 11:50 |
| llnz | unpull, unrecord and obliterate don't work on partial repos | 11:52 |
| * llnz builds tpserver-cpp from scratch from fresh get | 12:03 | |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/modules/games/mtsec/mtsec.cpp : | 12:09 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Removed includes for non-existant files in MTSec: | 12:09 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Must have missed those when removing the ordertype persistence classes. | 12:09 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (settings.cpp settings.cpp): | 12:11 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Set some sensible defaults if no command line parameters are given: | 12:11 |
| CIA-11 | tp: Turns the console logging on, and the logging level to Info and higher, so these | 12:11 |
| CIA-11 | tp: will have to be overridden by the default config file if it is used. | 12:11 |
| llnz | ahhh... that's better | 12:11 |
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| mithro | llnz: pong? | 12:32 |
| mithro | 41 commit messages? | 12:33 |
| llnz | ping! | 12:33 |
| *** JLP has quit IRC | 12:33 | |
| llnz | sorry about that, some are repeats | 12:33 |
| mithro | ? | 12:34 |
| llnz | there is a message on tp-cvs that outlines what i did | 12:34 |
| llnz | and then i reused the name again | 12:34 |
| llnz | but there were 8 new patches tonight | 12:35 |
| mithro | ahh same problem i had the othernight? | 12:35 |
| llnz | yeah, but i actually made it | 12:36 |
| mithro | ? | 12:36 |
| llnz | i pushed a bad patch, removed it from darcs.tp.net, then created a new one with the same name | 12:36 |
| mithro | ahh | 12:36 |
| llnz | it shouldn't happen again | 12:37 |
| mithro | hrm, the script should still handle it a bit better | 12:38 |
| llnz | you can fix it if you want | 12:38 |
| llnz | it's in perl | 12:39 |
| mithro | you going to reply to "[tp-devel] Determining Protocol Version" at all? | 12:39 |
| llnz | maybe, i did reply to an earlier one | 12:40 |
| llnz | actually, I will | 12:40 |
| *** _JLP_ is now known as JLP | 12:41 | |
| JLP | /msg NickServ IDENTIFY cierpn81 | 12:42 |
| mithro | JLP: opps :P | 12:43 |
| JLP | yeah, bloody space | 12:43 |
| mithro | :P | 12:45 |
| mithro | JLP: good that you changed it | 12:47 |
| mithro | [23:48] >nickserv< ghost jlp cierpn81 | 12:47 |
| mithro | [23:48] -NickServ- Password Incorrect | 12:47 |
| mithro | :P | 12:47 |
| JLP | hehe | 12:47 |
| mithro | JLP: i posted a password to a mailing list the other day :P | 12:48 |
| JLP | yeah, it happens so quickly, the OS should have the list of passwords and warn you everytime you try to post it somewhere :) | 12:49 |
| llnz | hehe | 12:51 |
| mithro | :P | 12:52 |
| mithro | welp, i'm heading to bed | 12:55 |
| JLP | mithro: good night | 12:56 |
| JLP | i also have to go, a lot of snow to showel off | 13:04 |
| * llnz is just going to finish this email then go to bed | 13:05 | |
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| * llnz wanders off | 13:35 | |
| llnz | later all | 13:35 |
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