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| llnz | later all | 03:42 |
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| StupidIncarnate | bit off topic, but why do every technology seem to have an animal representation? | 06:07 |
| StupidIncarnate | or at least some representation that's completely unrelated most of the time | 06:07 |
| StupidIncarnate | saw an xp book with a bull from | 06:08 |
| StupidIncarnate | frog* | 06:08 |
| StupidIncarnate | think gwt has a russian troll dude | 06:08 |
| StupidIncarnate | php has one I can't remember as does java | 06:09 |
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| kerbe | they add certain 'cute' factor for them | 06:16 |
| kerbe | it's most of the time matter of imago if something gets used or not, and especially if you're buying book, it is cover what sells. :) | 06:17 |
| StupidIncarnate | ya I guess | 06:18 |
| StupidIncarnate | btw what version of the server are you using on that gran....fr domain? | 06:19 |
| kerbe | .fi domain. close, but not so. :P | 06:20 |
| StupidIncarnate | fine, you made me scroll up gladiolus.fi | 06:20 |
| kerbe | 0.6.2 tpserver-cpp | 06:21 |
| StupidIncarnate | ah it must be tp04 then :/ | 06:21 |
| kerbe | you wished it was newer? | 06:21 |
| StupidIncarnate | bit older I think | 06:22 |
| kerbe | mhh, there are few releases which I could emerge, though not sure how stable / functional they are | 06:23 |
| kerbe | or are their dependencies how good condition. :) | 06:23 |
| StupidIncarnate | are you on linux? | 06:23 |
| kerbe | yep. | 06:23 |
| kerbe | I don't touch on windows servers, unless I really have to | 06:24 |
| kerbe | usually I can get someone else touch them. :P | 06:24 |
| StupidIncarnate | would it be too much trouble to do 0.4.1 for a bit? | 06:25 |
| StupidIncarnate | wanna test something | 06:26 |
| StupidIncarnate | though I don't know how long it takes to compile that stuff | 06:26 |
| kerbe | that's not rèadily available, but I suppose I can find source tar somewhere, or getting it directly from repo | 06:26 |
| StupidIncarnate | it's on source forge | 06:27 |
| StupidIncarnate | http://sourceforge.net/projects/thousandparsec/files/C%2B%2B%20Server/0.4.1/tpserver-cpp-0.4.1.tar.gz/download | 06:27 |
| kerbe | I'll take a look in a while, do few urgent things for work first. :) | 06:27 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/5VJO> (at sourceforge.net) | 06:27 |
| kerbe | thanks, that helps :) | 06:27 |
| StupidIncarnate | no thank you | 06:27 |
| StupidIncarnate | I gotta go to bed soon, but i'll be back before you go to bed probably | 06:28 |
| kerbe | as you gave me direct link to download, it's compiling now | 06:30 |
| StupidIncarnate | oh ;3 | 06:30 |
| kerbe | and it fails to compile | 06:31 |
| StupidIncarnate | things like that can fail? | 06:32 |
| kerbe | http://pastebin.com/gCWwz2A1 | 06:32 |
| tpb | Title: /bin/sh ../../../libtool --mod - Kerbe - gCWwz2A1 - Pastebin.com (at pastebin.com) | 06:32 |
| kerbe | easily. :) | 06:32 |
| StupidIncarnate | change in linux's version of dlls? | 06:32 |
| kerbe | most likely | 06:32 |
| StupidIncarnate | linux's dll sort of files related to c++ compiling* | 06:32 |
| StupidIncarnate | ah | 06:33 |
| kerbe | similar issue was preventing latest version to compile | 06:33 |
| kerbe | until they released new version | 06:33 |
| kerbe | so it'll take a while to get older version up, while tracking what has to be downgraded. :) | 06:33 |
| StupidIncarnate | naw, you don't have to do all that. I'll either see if tote has an older version lying around, otherwise I'll bang my head on my comp till I get the python mod working with some sort of server | 06:35 |
| kerbe | linux is fairly easy to get along, even with older versions. just need a bit work, if wanting to get older stuff work. :) | 06:39 |
| StupidIncarnate | well, don't get too fustrated over it. I'll just check back with you when I wake up then | 06:40 |
| StupidIncarnate | see you later | 06:40 |
| kerbe | good night. :) | 06:40 |
| StupidIncarnate | night | 06:40 |
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| null_000 | hi all | 11:25 |
| mithro | hey null_000 | 11:44 |
| null_000 | my proposal is almost finished | 11:46 |
| null_000 | I'll just add a little more text | 11:46 |
| CIA-70 | jiaming tpclient-pywx-tp04 * r7819809d63e9 /windows/ (winAccount.py winServerBrowser.py): | 11:48 |
| CIA-70 | Fix a bug in the Server Browser window. | 11:48 |
| CIA-70 | (When this sever browser window shows up, it hides the ConnectTo window. | 11:48 |
| CIA-70 | However, when this window is closed by clicking the cross, it does't make the | 11:48 |
| CIA-70 | ConnectTo window visible again.) | 11:48 |
| mithro | I wanted to chat with you about that | 11:48 |
| null_000 | sure | 11:49 |
| mithro | null_000: so what is the "core" of your proposal | 11:49 |
| mithro | IE what is the major pass/fail point | 11:50 |
| null_000 | AI for MTSec and TAE and at least basic support for coding AI in python | 11:52 |
| mithro | but what does "at least basic support for coding AI in Python" actually mean? | 11:53 |
| mithro | and MTSec is a pretty big ruleset | 11:54 |
| mithro | what is AI support for MTSec mean? | 11:54 |
| mithro | are you allow to hard-code the ship designs? | 11:54 |
| null_000 | I want to make daneel-ai in to a framework where AI coder doesn't have to study the client and protocol libraries but can focus on AI logic | 11:54 |
| mithro | so why is daneel-ai not already that? | 11:55 |
| mithro | it seems that way to me | 11:55 |
| null_000 | It is if you use CHR syntax but not if you want to do it in pure python | 11:56 |
| mithro | plus the client library hides most of the protocol level | 11:56 |
| mithro | what about the Risk ruleset? | 11:57 |
| mithro | why TAE? | 11:57 |
| mithro | have you asked about which rulesets are the most playable? | 11:57 |
| mithro | have you gotten anywhere in your minisec coding process? | 11:57 |
| null_000 | I choose TAE because risk already has an AI | 11:57 |
| mithro | null_000: how well does that AI work? | 11:57 |
| mithro | what about bugs in the server? | 11:58 |
| mithro | I'm sure you'll come across plenty | 11:58 |
| null_000 | I've come across some already | 11:58 |
| mithro | so you need to plan that you'll come across blocking bugs | 11:58 |
| mithro | how are you going to test how much better you AI is? | 11:59 |
| mithro | playing against it manually is going to take a long time | 11:59 |
| mithro | and not actually be reliable indicator | 11:59 |
| mithro | null_000: sorry to fire so many questions at you, just trying to brain dump before I head to bed | 11:59 |
| mithro | your schedule seems way to aggressive too | 12:00 |
| null_000 | I'm not sure if I have any other option than to manualy test AI | 12:00 |
| mithro | null_000: sure you do | 12:00 |
| mithro | null_000: for minisec you can play against tpsai-py if you can get it working | 12:00 |
| mithro | there is also genconai | 12:00 |
| mithro | and older versions | 12:01 |
| mithro | IE version 2 now always beats version 1 | 12:01 |
| null_000 | yes for minisec theres tpsai-py but for MTSec there isn't anything (as far as I know) | 12:01 |
| mithro | I think you also need to plan how you are going to build your AI better | 12:02 |
| mithro | what type of approach are you going to take | 12:02 |
| mithro | simple task list with dependencies like tpsai-py? | 12:02 |
| null_000 | I was thinking that AI for rulesets that dont have AI yet would be most apritiated | 12:02 |
| null_000 | I will probably start with a simple tasklist | 12:03 |
| null_000 | and build from there | 12:03 |
| mithro | null_000: but your second version of the ai should be able to easily beat your second version | 12:03 |
| mithro | s/second/first | 12:03 |
| null_000 | ofcourse | 12:03 |
| mithro | so in 100 rounds, v2 should always beat v1 | 12:03 |
| null_000 | for advanced tactics i'll have to spend more time playing | 12:03 |
| mithro | (with random universe) | 12:04 |
| mithro | what about improving the risk ai? | 12:04 |
| mithro | what about producing ai demo battles - like the ones we have produced previously between tpsai-py and galaxie | 12:05 |
| null_000 | I could do that but I thought that AI for new rulesets would be more appreciated | 12:05 |
| mithro | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG2YwaBN0Kc | 12:05 |
| tpb | Title: YouTube - Thousand Parsec - Battle of AIs (at www.youtube.com) | 12:05 |
| mithro | null_000: sure - I do think you need to target a new ruleset, but I think if you are going to change daneel-ai you also need to provide it's worth on the current rulesets | 12:06 |
| mithro | your proposal also needs to have stronger goals | 12:06 |
| mithro | I don't think you'll be able to write a *good* AI for mtsec in 1 month, let alone 1 week | 12:07 |
| null_000 | I could drop TAE from the proposal and focus more on MTSec | 12:08 |
| null_000 | and there is time planed for advanced tactics discovery during the community bonding period | 12:09 |
| mithro | null_000: how much of that time will be spent fixing bugs however? | 12:10 |
| mithro | and other work? | 12:10 |
| mithro | null_000: you need to understand *why* mtsec is going to take a lot of work | 12:10 |
| mithro | remeber the AI can't cheat | 12:10 |
| null_000 | I talked to daneel-ai creator about the time needed to create an AI and his estimate was a few weeks tops | 12:11 |
| mithro | that's to create an AI | 12:12 |
| null_000 | If hard results are needed I could focus more on rulesets with existing AI and making sure my AI beats the old one | 12:12 |
| mithro | null_000: I think you should try two things | 12:12 |
| mithro | 1) concentrate on MTSec | 12:12 |
| mithro | 2) any improvements to daneel-ai need to be proved in all rulesets | 12:13 |
| mithro | 3) you need a better plan for testing the MTSec AI | 12:13 |
| mithro | I want to see you have thought about these type of things | 12:14 |
| null_000 | 2.) the improvements I was planning don't change the way existing AI works but provides a different way of coding new AI | 12:14 |
| mithro | what about a "zerg rush" | 12:14 |
| null_000 | zerg rush? | 12:14 |
| mithro | where you rush the opponnet with hundreds of cheap units early on | 12:14 |
| mithro | I don't even know if MTSec allows that tatic | 12:15 |
| mithro | how important is ship design? It's suppose to be a core part of the game play | 12:15 |
| mithro | is it? | 12:15 |
| mithro | these are questions you need to answer when creating an AI | 12:15 |
| mithro | am I making sense? | 12:16 |
| null_000 | the main problem for me now is that I didn't have an oprotunity to play against other players | 12:16 |
| mithro | ezod and alanp (balki) are the only people who have really played MTSec | 12:16 |
| mithro | null_000: sure - and uncertainty means things always take longer then you expect | 12:17 |
| mithro | null_000: btw - getting a minisec AI up and running is probably trivial - less then a day or twos worth of work | 12:18 |
| mithro | but it would be a good thing to show off | 12:18 |
| null_000 | I'll drop TAE as I can always do it if there is more time | 12:18 |
| mithro | I also think you should do your simplication in parellel on an *as needed* basis | 12:18 |
| null_000 | I'll have minisec AI done this week, but I can't dedicate too much time because I have an exam on the 8th | 12:18 |
| mithro | null_000: sure, but you need to understand the uncertainty and plan for it | 12:19 |
| mithro | and plan for when things go wrong | 12:19 |
| mithro | what if MTSec is totally unplayable? | 12:19 |
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| null_000 | since everyone said its the most stable ruleset it would be my best bet | 12:20 |
| mithro | stable is a relative word :) | 12:20 |
| null_000 | ^_^ | 12:21 |
| mithro | we don't really have enough players to say "you can finish a MTSec game without the server crashing in most cases" | 12:21 |
| mithro | I guarantee that you'll come across crasher bugs | 12:22 |
| mithro | null_000: maybe proposing an AI grind test for the server would be cool proposal | 12:22 |
| null_000 | I was just going to propose that | 12:22 |
| mithro | obviously an AI is a poor subsitute for proper tests and real human players | 12:23 |
| mithro | but it's better then what we have now :P | 12:23 |
| null_000 | I could turn the buggy state of the server to my advantage in my proposal ^_^ | 12:23 |
| mithro | an AI's who focus is to test the server is quite different to an AI who wants to win against a player | 12:24 |
| mithro | also different from an AI who wants to emulate a human player | 12:24 |
| null_000 | any AI good or bad could have at least some use for testing the server | 12:25 |
| null_000 | I also have an idea about AI evaluation | 12:25 |
| mithro | cool | 12:26 |
| mithro | well I should head to bed | 12:26 |
| null_000 | I could write a stupid AI and try to evaluate my progress with how many stupid AI can my smart AI beat (and how quick) | 12:26 |
| null_000 | AI zerg rush | 12:26 |
| mithro | null_000: good idea | 12:27 |
| null_000 | well than you for your time | 12:27 |
| null_000 | I do need to turn my proposal around but at least I know what I can do to have better chances of being accepted | 12:28 |
| mithro | null_000: if you see daneel-ai's creator, tell him to sign up to be a mentor! | 12:28 |
| mithro | null_000: much better for it to happen now then when there is nothing you can do about it :)_ | 12:29 |
| null_000 | i talked to him about that yesterday | 12:29 |
| mithro | null_000: what did he say? | 12:29 |
| null_000 | he said he'll try to apply as a student if i understood corectly | 12:30 |
| mithro | ahh okay | 12:30 |
| null_000 | but he said he would be happy to answer all my questions even if he's not my mentor | 12:30 |
| mithro | anyway, I'm really heading to bed now | 12:30 |
| null_000 | good night then ^_^ | 12:31 |
| mithro | good luck! | 12:31 |
| null_000 | thank you | 12:31 |
| mithro | if you see students, tell them to send email to the list and not directly to me! | 12:31 |
| null_000 | ok | 12:31 |
| null_000 | if I recognize them | 12:32 |
| null_000 | btw how much competition do I have (how many proposals)? ^_^ | 12:33 |
| mithro | at the moment 1 | 12:34 |
| mithro | but looks like there are a bunch going onto the wiki | 12:34 |
| null_000 | aren't there 5 proposals on the wiki (not sure if there any good) | 12:34 |
| null_000 | thanks for the info | 12:35 |
| mithro | we normally get about 50-80 proposals | 12:41 |
| mithro | a lot are not very good however | 12:42 |
| mithro | gnight for real :) | 12:42 |
| null_000 | good night | 12:44 |
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| kerbe | null_000: if you want to have game at some point, I have server & time during easter weekend. then you have some experience about game. :) | 13:06 |
| null_000 | that would be great | 13:11 |
| kerbe | great. | 13:12 |
| null_000 | maybe there should be a TP-players channel on irc for people who want to play | 13:12 |
| kerbe | ain't this for those? ;9 | 13:12 |
| null_000 | ^___^ | 13:12 |
| null_000 | kind of... but most people here are away | 13:13 |
| null_000 | (or just really quiet) | 13:13 |
| kerbe | so you want two channels where people are away? :P | 13:13 |
| null_000 | ^___^ | 13:13 |
| kerbe | that's nature of irc ;) | 13:13 |
| kerbe | anyway, I'll head home, back in hour or two. :) | 13:14 |
| kerbe | -> | 13:14 |
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| sara1089 | hello | 13:37 |
| sara1089 | anyone interested in gsoc? | 13:37 |
| ezod | in what way? | 13:39 |
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| balki | i'm interested in it | 13:54 |
| balki | ;) | 13:54 |
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| StupidIncarnate | hey kerbe, how'd it go? | 18:01 |
| kerbe | haven't had time yet to investigate it | 18:14 |
| StupidIncarnate | oh ok | 18:15 |
| kerbe | work took my day, and relaxation rest. :) | 18:15 |
| StupidIncarnate | what'd you do? | 18:15 |
| kerbe | bad company 2 (or were you interested in my work? :P) | 18:16 |
| StupidIncarnate | what you do, ya | 18:16 |
| kerbe | in fact I'm currently eating this, having short break... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4mmi | 18:19 |
| tpb | Title: Mämmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org) | 18:19 |
| StupidIncarnate | >.> ewww? | 18:20 |
| StupidIncarnate | oh easter's coming up isn't it | 18:20 |
| kerbe | next weekend, yep | 18:20 |
| StupidIncarnate | lol not that I do anything with it | 18:20 |
| kerbe | 2 free days from work, that's what it is good for :P | 18:20 |
| StupidIncarnate | oh, I don't work on the weekend. School don't let students | 18:21 |
| kerbe | I mean friday and monday are free, weekend of course is free, like most work places have :) | 18:22 |
| StupidIncarnate | really | 18:32 |
| StupidIncarnate | I'll have to check with my work | 18:32 |
| StupidIncarnate | though they are school jobs so probably don't have them off | 18:33 |
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| jiaming | hi llnz | 20:22 |
| llnz | hi jiaming | 20:22 |
| jiaming | i write a new proposal at http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Proposals2010/Jiaming-Scenario | 20:23 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/5WFb> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 20:23 |
| jiaming | if possible please take a look at it | 20:23 |
| jiaming | and give me some feedback :) thanx | 20:23 |
| llnz | looking now | 20:29 |
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| llnz | i hate windows | 21:40 |
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| bisc | hi all. anybody to discuss gsoc ideas for tpclient-pywx? | 21:54 |
| null_000 | llnz: I can relate to that ^_^ | 21:57 |
| llnz | i have to use it here at work | 21:57 |
| null_000 | what kind of work do you do? | 21:58 |
| llnz | Software engineering/development and computer network preformance consulting | 21:59 |
| null_000 | I worked 3 years for a small company that did web apps (mostly for the ministry of education) and not only did I have to use windows I had to learn and program in C# and worse Visual Basic.net | 22:01 |
| llnz | hehe | 22:02 |
| null_000 | but now im mostly MS free ^_^ | 22:02 |
| llnz | most of my development work has been in MFC C++ and java, but currently working on python to be run on a linux server | 22:02 |
| llnz | bisc: i can help in general terms, but you will need mithro or Greywhind for specifics | 22:04 |
| bisc | llnz: well... I'm in need of certain details, thanks for info | 22:07 |
| bisc | Greywhind: can you tell me how to get your gsoc 2009 work running? I've changed for tp04 branch of tpclient-pywx, but the GUI is rather different from what's on screens of your blog. Am I doing smth wrong? | 22:08 |
| Greywhind | bisc: just using the tp04 branch of tpclient-pywx with the tp04 branches of libtpclient-py and libtpproto-py should be all that's required | 22:09 |
| bisc | Greywhind: oh, thanks. I forgot to change branch for those two libs | 22:10 |
| null_000 | llnz: this might be a stupid question... but the man page for tpserver-cpp says that you can enter console commands... how do I do that? | 22:29 |
| null_000 | I've tried running it in debug mode... | 22:29 |
| llnz | ah, well... | 22:29 |
| llnz | the console has been removed, and replaced by an admin client | 22:29 |
| null_000 | oh... | 22:30 |
| llnz | tpadmin-cpp | 22:30 |
| llnz | it has basically the same functionality | 22:30 |
| llnz | patch for the man page is welcome | 22:30 |
| null_000 | it does say 2006-01-02 in the man page... so should see that one coming ^_^ | 22:30 |
| llnz | :-) | 22:31 |
| llnz | the man page doesn't need updating often | 22:31 |
| llnz | just now | 22:31 |
| null_000 | ^_^ | 22:31 |
| null_000 | if nobody has complained about this I can see how often it is used | 22:32 |
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| tansell | jiaming, ping? | 23:54 |
| tansell | Greywhind, ping? | 23:56 |
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