Tuesday, 2009-03-24

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ErantSRabbelier: So you pretty effectively robbed me of my fun.06:12
ErantLooks like the LinkID stuff is pretty much nailed shut now.06:12
ErantGood job ;)06:12
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ErantI will ofcourse still be taking my +10 Poking Stick of Prodding, and see if I can find more holes.06:13
j-bHello... Just a quick shot to say "Thank you so much" for Melange... This is way easier to deal with proposals.06:13
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James--CrookErant please check your application to 'demo 0' at http://melange-demo.appspot.com/student_proposal/review/google/gsoc2009/erant/t123788942964.07:29
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Erant"You do not have the required role"07:37
ErantAh, nm.07:38
ErantThat application was mainly to just poke at random crap. Sverre did a good job at patching the whole linkid escalation though07:38
James--CrookOK, so you can't read the comment to you there?  (damn)07:39
ErantOh, yes I can ;)07:39
ErantReading the AccessControl wiki now. :P07:40
James--CrookGood good good.  Fun?07:40
ErantYeah, I'd like to learn a bit more about web-based security. My main focus up 'till now has been embedded security.07:42
ErantCompletly different field, but there is some overlap.07:42
James--CrookA couple of days ago you were saying you felt there might not be enough in security testing to be a GSoC, but adding in the field level ACL, which is all about security would make it so - and you seem to have exactly the right kind of attitude to poking at code to find it's (security) flaws.07:42
kblinErant: like "don't trust user input"?07:42
James--Crookkblin: like don't tust it twice :-)07:43
Erantkblin: Don't trust anything, indeed.07:43
kblinJames--Crook: that's what Win98 used to do when you tried to format C:07:43
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ErantEmbedded security has the added problem of your device being in the field.07:43
James--Crooknot even yourself (impersonated)07:43
kblinJames--Crook: "are you sure you want to do this?" "Really?"07:43
ErantJames: I'll be reading up on this for sure.07:44
James--CrookErant: who else are you thinking of applying to?07:44
ErantRockbox07:44
James--CrookRockbox rock.  Really :-).07:45
ErantThey want a USB host driver.07:45
kblinErant: web security has the added implications of people not only attacking your site but also abusing your site to attack others07:45
kblinI'm not sure what I'd prefer :)07:45
James--CrookErant: I'm with Audacity, and we've been tentatively looking at doing some collaboration with them, but nothing firm yet.07:45
ErantThey each have their different problems ;) I'm really at home with IDA Pro and assembly, but the internet is an interesting place too :)07:46
ErantJames: Sweet.07:46
James--CrookI've worked for a long time in the embedded field, mostly telcos, also oil/gas/electric, satellite O/S, image processing  that kind of thing.  It takes a lot of patience assembly/embedded, and is high risk (high reward) for a GSoC.  Go for it!07:48
James--CrookJust be careful not to underestimate how long things will take.07:49
James--CrookThere is high variability, high unknown usually.07:49
ErantMelange would also be very interesting though. I personally know two of the devs (which makes poking holes all the more enjoyable), so working on shit is easier.07:49
ErantJames: Yeah, been there, done that. Especially if you have to reverse the platform you're building on ;)07:49
James--CrookMelange has the potential to become something outstanding, as revolutionary as wikipedia was, but for open source devs.07:50
Eranttime for two applications, methinks.07:50
James--CrookSo it is a MAJOR project, in terms of petential impact.  At last GSoC mentor summit I said we need to be looking for two particular kinds of skillset that we needed more of...07:50
James--Crooksecurity expertise, and javascript fluency (for the sparkle that attracts more people to work on it).07:51
James--Crooki.e two different people (probably)07:51
James--Crookyes, two applications, and get yours in early...07:52
James--Crookit gives more time to get feedback.07:52
James--CrookThe hardest part is a snappy title :-)07:52
Erant:D07:53
James--CrookErant, you based in Netherlands?07:53
ErantYup.07:56
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spectiehey all08:57
spectieis it worth putting in a feature request for being able to edit/remove reviews?08:57
James--Crookyes08:57
spectieanyone know if there is one already?08:58
* spectie looks08:58
spectiesubmitted09:04
James--Crookthanks.09:06
spectie#42009:06
spectie;)09:06
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SRabbelierspectie: thanks :)10:55
spectienp10:56
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James--CrookHi Mkop2.  Here to talk about the need for TLC in the UI?13:36
Mkop2can I suggest the confusing tooltip thingy about "lower ascii characters" be reworded?13:36
James--CrookVerbiage.  Yes.  It's already in the tracker.13:36
James--Crooknext?13:36
Mkop2the options that are relevant should be more than prominent than the things that aren't. For example, create new document should not be more prominent than Submit student application13:37
James--CrookDetails of how you would suggest that should be please...  Surely not bigger font size?13:37
Mkop2agreed not bigger font size13:38
James--CrookJust earlier in list?13:38
Mkop2maybe put Programs above User?13:39
James--CrookDon't think so.  The sign in is too important.13:39
James--CrookI agree it could be improved, but I don't think there is a simple fix.13:40
James--CrookProbably there should be less stuff in the sidebar.13:40
Mkop2yes, agreed13:40
James--CrookAnd there should be a user summary page that gives your status, e.g. news just in (such as accepted/rejected/please update this)13:40
Mkop2the users guide should be split into multiple pages13:41
James--Crookand summary count, you have applied to OpenMRS and Melange....13:41
James--CrookUser guide should be on a wiki.13:41
James--CrookOne page for quick getting started.13:41
James--CrookOne for students.13:41
James--CrookOne for admin.13:42
Mkop2yes13:42
James--CrookLink to the common/shared information.13:42
James--CrookFor background information one of the plans is to get a wiki (moinsmoin) into Melange.13:42
James--Crook(that one becasue it is in python already)13:42
James--CrookAnything really just plain outright confusing that needs to change?13:43
Mkop2it just seems like it's such a complicated interface, but maybe it's necessary for the amount of backend functionality it has13:43
James--CrookNo, I agree with your sentiment....  The fucntion that the user and orgs see IS relatively simple form filling.13:44
James--CrookSo it ought to be presented relatively simply too.13:44
James--CrookCan you put your finger on what is complicated about it?  That might help us change it.13:45
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Mkop2can't really put my finger on it13:47
James--Crook(well you were having another discussion in #gsoc at the time :-) )13:48
Mkop2was I? not really....13:48
James--CrookMkop2: chx: they're probably planningon editing still13:49
James--Crookis what you said  there13:49
Mkop2lol, ok13:49
Mkop2thanks for listening to my rant13:49
chxBTW if I press inelligeble where can i revert that?13:49
chxi asked in gsoc but i suspect this is a better place for ths13:50
James--CrookNot rant, I genuinely care about this stuff, and also know the background, but what I would like13:50
James--Crookis some more concrete suggestions of how to improve it.13:50
James--CrookSo if you think of some more can you come back here to #melange with them and discuss?  That would be good.13:51
Mkop2if i think of more, I will do so13:51
James--Crookchx:I don't know the answer to that.  It is perfectly possible that it is not yet possible.  I'd suggest13:52
James--Crookeither you or I file it as an issue and it will be fixed in the next update.  (2 days? guessing)13:52
James--Crookchx: Do you want to file it at http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/list or shall I?13:54
tpbTitle: Issues - soc - Google Code (at code.google.com)13:54
chxJames--Crook: filing already13:54
James--Crookcool :-)13:54
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chxJames--Crook: http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=42613:55
tpb<http://ln-s.net/33M_> (at code.google.com)13:55
James--Crookthx.13:56
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chxoooooh it already got an owner14:06
James--Crookand a priority14:10
James--Crook:-)14:10
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ArthurLiuhi,16:59
ArthurLiuis there a way to retract a private review ?16:59
SRabbelierArthurLiu: nope17:01
SRabbelierArthurLiu: you can rescore it though :)17:01
SRabbelierArthurLiu: (there's an issue for being able to edit your own reviews though)17:01
SRabbelierArthurLiu: see http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=42617:01
tpb<http://ln-s.net/33M_> (at code.google.com)17:01
SRabbelierArthurLiu: err, wrong one17:01
SRabbelierArthurLiu: http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=420#c517:01
ArthurLiuam I just dreaming or the tick to make review private box changed into a tick to make public box ?17:01
tpb<http://ln-s.net/33RO> (at code.google.com)17:02
GofI try to register as a mentor but it doesn't work.  i go to  http://socghop.appspot.com/user/create_profile   then it says my account cannot be used and gives some possible reasons.    Is there a way to know which reason, and how i could subscribe anyway?17:02
tpbTitle: Sign In Required (at socghop.appspot.com)17:02
SRabbelierArthurLiu: very well possible17:02
ArthurLiu:/17:02
SRabbelierGof: perhaps you already created your account?17:02
SRabbelierGof: go to http://socghop.appspot.com/user/edit_profile17:02
tpbTitle: Sign In Required (at socghop.appspot.com)17:02
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ArthurLiuwell, we have a redundant private review, could have been the opposite, I gotta be careful17:02
GofSRabbelier: i did17:02
SRabbelierGof: what's that site say?17:03
SRabbelierArthurLiu: true, you could say that on Issue 420 as a use case to Pawel17:03
GofSRabbelier: http://pastebin.com/d344c6a3117:03
tpbTitle: Diff pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at pastebin.com)17:03
SRabbelierGof: what link_id?17:04
ErantIs giving out your link_id a good idea...17:04
SRabbelierErant: yes17:04
Erantk17:04
Erant</paranoia>17:04
SRabbelierErant: you can't do anything with it :P17:04
SRabbelierErant: unless of course, you knew how to hack it... :P17:05
ErantNo comment.17:05
Erant:P17:05
ErantNah, 's all looking good.17:05
SRabbelierGof: ?17:06
GofSRabbelier: gof17:06
ArthurLiualso, public comment+assign mentor should fail completely if the mentor is mistyped or not confirmed yet don't you think ?17:06
ArthurLiuright now, the review passes through but the mentor is not updated17:06
SRabbelierArthurLiu: you can do both at the same time?17:07
ArthurLiuyes...?17:07
SRabbelierArthurLiu: that's not quite intentional I suspect17:07
SRabbelierArthurLiu: that is, a 'free sideffect'17:07
ArthurLiuerr17:07
ArthurLiuI'll submit an issue to the tracker about that then17:08
SRabbelierGof: you already have an account created, go to http://socghop.appspot.com/user/edit_profile to edit your profile17:08
tpbTitle: Sign In Required (at socghop.appspot.com)17:08
ArthurLiuit says "leave this box empty if you don't want a mentor assigned"17:09
ArthurLiuwhat if there's already one ?17:09
ArthurLiuah, ok, it's prefilled if there's one17:09
GofSRabbelier: there is not much i can do.17:09
GofSRabbelier: i can only select my public name (which i did)17:10
GofSRabbelier: no way to register as a mentor17:10
GofSRabbelier: or should i ask the admin of my project to do that?17:10
SRabbelierGof: did you try http://socghop.appspot.com/org/apply_mentor/google/gsoc2009 ?17:10
tpb<http://ln-s.net/2xQU> (at socghop.appspot.com)17:10
SRabbelierGof: it's in the sidebar under GSoC 200917:10
GofSRabbelier: this link used to redirect me to  create_profile   but now it works17:11
GofSRabbelier: thanks for your help17:11
SRabbelierGof: it does that the first time, before you've created your profile ;)17:12
GofSRabbelier: i am prety sure it did it even after.17:12
Gofmaybe because i had not refreshed the page?17:12
SRabbelierGof: probably that ;)17:13
GofSRabbelier: thank you anyway.17:13
SRabbelierGof: np :)17:16
ArthurLiuhttp://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=429 "Review+Assign Mentor should fail completely if mentor mistyped or not confirmed yet" sent17:16
tpb<http://ln-s.net/33Ri> (at code.google.com)17:16
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jamtodayregarding the Quiz Adapter idea on the wiki, I've found question and quiz models, but haven't seen any implementation. Are quizzes still at the mockup stage?17:20
SRabbelierjamtoday: yup17:23
SRabbelierArthurLiu: thanks17:23
ArthurLiuwell, at least we're useful guinea pigs for melange :)17:23
SRabbelierArthurLiu: hehehe, nono, it's the other way around ;)17:25
jamtodaySRabbelier: thanks for the clarification. Who would be the best contact for discussing specs for the quiz system?17:25
SRabbelierjamtoday: mhhh, poke James--Crook about it when he gets back17:26
SRabbelierjamtoday: but the general idea with the Quizzes17:27
SRabbelierjamtoday: is to be able to make a form like the student proposals17:28
SRabbelierjamtoday: and not have to write any code for it17:28
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jamtodayJames--Crook: I was asking a few minutes ago about the Quiz Adapter idea on the wiki18:15
jamtodayAt first, I thought that this would be for assessment type usage, but looking at the Issue Tracker and asking here, it seems like this is more like the functionality in Google Forms18:16
James--CrookYes, you have it right.18:18
James--Crookjamtoday:  The mid term questionairres could be done by a Google forms like approach.18:20
James--CrookHave you done any archeology in the issue tracker?  There are quite a few stories about 'quiz' and how it could work.18:21
jamtodayYeah, looking at it now. Items like "Quiz Authoring interface needs to support specifying "solution" Answers" suggests more of an assessment functionality18:23
James--CrookOK.  So tell me what makes sense to you at the moment and what does not.18:24
jamtodayStill a little unclear on exactly where this would fall in the spectrum between a google docs form and an assessment18:26
jamtodayFor instance, would a timer for answering a question be appropriate?18:26
James--CrookNope.  No reason to have a timer, at least not for the kind of use we are planning.18:27
James--CrookWhat happened is that the name Questionairre was chosen, then later it was decided we were using it so much a shorter word like quiz would be better.  But actually form is best.18:27
jamtodayyeah i was thinking the same thing. I've had the same problem with naming entity kinds early on18:29
jamtodayAnyways, there's a lot of good stuff on the issue tracker. Perhaps I can put together some rough specs for review after going over it more closely18:30
James--CrookOne thing to think about is the way you represent quiz in the database.18:30
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James--CrookOne of the stories is about (modulo choice of terminology) is about adding a field to an entity whilst the system is live.18:32
James--CrookIssue 100 is a good one to look at.18:34
jamtodayclub == organization?18:35
SRabbelierjamtoday: yes, we used to have clubs, but that's been long-termed18:35
James--CrookYes.  We ended up with some starnge terminology because of doing both GSoC and GHoP.18:35
SRabbelierjamtoday: if you read club anywhere do s/club/organization/18:36
James--CrookSee http://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/Terminology, and if some terms are not explained there, please add a comment so that we know and can update.18:36
jamtodayexcellent. this link will be very useful.18:37
jamtodayAnd aside from a bit of concern about feature creep, it shouldn't be too hard to satisfy these user stories. I've been spending much of the last 6 months developing various quiz apps on GAE, which helps to some extent18:38
James--CrookThat helps a lot! :-)18:39
jamtodayspecifically, http://www.plopquiz.com18:39
tpbTitle: PlopQuiz / Show What You Know (at www.plopquiz.com)18:39
James--Crook..looking..18:39
SRabbelierjamtoday: nice!!18:40
SRabbelierjamtoday: put that in your application ;)18:40
SRabbeliers/application/proposal18:40
jamtodaywill do. I'll make sure to link to some open source work I've done as well18:41
SRabbelierjamtoday: perfect :)18:41
James--Crookjamtoday: if I have a plopquiz with 20 questions, how many records are used for my answers?18:43
James--CrookIs it one, or twenty?  (or neither)18:43
jamtodaya new entity is created for each score on each item, so 2018:43
James--CrookOK.  Hence the need for an adapter.18:44
James--CrookIn Melange our application forms etc are one item.18:44
James--Crookum record.18:44
jamtodayShould I come back here when i have a rough proposal or is there a better contact method?18:45
James--CrookGet your proposal in early, because18:46
James--Crookthen the mentors can give you (more) feedback, and you have more time to revise it.18:46
James--CrookI'm not a mentor for melange,18:46
James--Crookso if you want to ask questions or brainstorm about future direction for melange, here on #melange is a good place.18:47
jamtodayGot it. The SOC site should be a good way to get some more experience with Melange, anyways.18:48
James--Crookthat benefits everyone.18:48
James--CrookYes, you certainly want to have a local copy of your own running.  (wiki getting started page)18:48
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James--Crookjamtoday: you have found the melange mailing list haven't you?18:51
jamtodayyeah, i've had some traumatic experiences with subscribing to google groups mailing lists, but I'll put the feed in my reader18:51
jamtodayand ill post any questions there if i think they may be useful to other people18:52
James--Crookand if you see things that need improving on the getting started guide, or elsewhere in reading the wiki, we appreciate getting comments that help us improve it for everyone.18:53
SRabbelierjamtoday: please do :)18:54
SRabbelierjamtoday: feel free to ping us here on #melange if you have a question, or drop a mail to melange-soc-dev18:54
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ErantJames--Crook: d'oh. So I only got your trick just now.19:13
James--CrookI didn't have the patience to adjust broders and so on in styles to get the extra yellow to go away.  I'm not sure it is even possible to.  I didn't get very far using small fonts to reduce the height either.19:18
James--Crooks/broders/borders/19:19
ErantWell, you got me fooled regardless.19:21
James--CrookIf the display page indented the comments relative to the dates, I'm fairly sure it would not be possible to 'impersonate' this way at all.19:21
ErantSite is pretty sealed up against XSS attacks btw19:21
James--CrookI don't think a student could actually do much damage with it.19:21
James--CrookThat's good to know.  I know Lennie and Sverre and Todd were very aware of that as an issue.19:22
James--CrookIn some places the de-htmling seems a bit too severe, e.g. documents, but better safe than sorry.19:23
ErantSo true.19:23
James--Crookg2g.  Talk to you another day.19:24
Erantk, cu19:24
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mansoorkhanhi every one19:40
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mansoorkhanis there any one to whom I can ask about the GSoc Project "Statistics Module"19:43
lhmansoorkhan: most of the developers are in .eu - maybe try back later?19:45
lhor send email to the melange mailing list for feedbacl19:45
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dandersonthat sounds right. The people who can give you advice are on the CET timezone (ask google for "Time in Paris"). There is more activity on this channel during CET daytime19:46
dandersonposting to the mailing list is a good way of ensuring that you will be seen.19:46
mansoorkhanmany thanks19:47
ErantSo I'm going to guess I shouldn't be able to modify the write or read access on a 'public' document. Nor delete it, if it's not mine.19:47
dandersonyeah, that also sounds right :-)19:48
dandersonassuming you don't have a developer, or other privileged account.19:49
ErantMjeh...19:49
ErantEuh, wait19:50
Erantwrite_access is set to _user_.19:50
ErantNot public19:50
ErantGah, yeah, it's not checked.19:50
dandersonah. So that would be a permission error?19:50
ErantYep19:50
ErantThat's another trip to the bugtracker ;)19:50
dandersonis this on the production site? Maybe I can quickly fix it. If not, we'll have to wait for a real Melange dev :)19:51
dandersonErant: can you give me the link to the doc? (in private if you'd rather not paste it here)19:51
ErantI always work on the test server.19:51
dandersonok.19:51
dandersonThen bugtracker :-)19:51
dandersonthanks for testing! Testers win :)19:51
ErantI'm still thinking of applying as a security... euh... engineer (?) for Melange.19:52
ErantHad a decent chat with James about it.19:52
summatusmentisErant: as a student?19:54
Erantsummatusmentis: Yeah19:57
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MatthewWilkesIt's people!  We gotta stop them!  - classic21:14
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makkuhello22:20
makkuanybody their22:20
ajaksume, but I don't know much about gsoc or melange :)22:32
ajaksuI can try to help though :)22:32
makkuyes thanks for your response ajaksu22:36
ajaksunp :)22:37
makkuok can you read this link on your browser http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/user/maheshpm/maheshpm22:38
tpb<http://ln-s.net/33WM> (at socghop.appspot.com)22:38
ajaksuyes, it says "hai to every one" :)22:40
makkuok it works22:41
makkui had a problem with the registration22:41
makkuso now it is cleared22:41
ajaksumakku: is that document yours? because the "Link ID" for a document or proposal doesn't have to be your user Link ID22:41
makku :D22:41
ajaksucool, you're registered and it works :)22:42
makkuyes but it works22:43
makkuas a sub dir22:43
makku :p22:44
makkujust for testing22:44
makkuif it works22:44
ajaksuI did it too, ajaksu/ajaksu :)22:44
ajaksu(not available anymore) :)22:45
makkumay be it automatically created by the system22:48
makkusee you ajaksu22:52
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