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| mithro | JLafont: ping? | 00:18 |
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| mithro | ~seen Asmm | 00:23 |
| tpb | mithro: Asmm was last seen in #tp 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <Asmm> ok, i made it work. I only wanted the code using anonymous cvs, apparently one should nto login, and for git repositories should checkout "master" dir for master branch. Thanks anyway! | 00:23 |
| mithro | hi Asmm are you new here? | 00:24 |
| mithro | ~seen jphr | 00:25 |
| tpb | mithro: jphr was last seen in #tp 6 hours, 18 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <jphr> mithro: ping? | 00:25 |
| mithro | llnz: ping? | 00:38 |
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| llnz | mithro: pong | 01:31 |
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| Asmm | hello, yeah, sort of new here | 02:35 |
| nash | welcome to the party Asmm ;-) | 02:45 |
| llnz | bbl (maybe) | 02:51 |
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| bddebian | Heya | 09:12 |
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| CIA-28 | pluskid schemepy * rff71958f841a /schemepy/ (guile/guile.py mzscheme/mzhelper.c mzscheme/mzscheme.py): Added namespace support for mzscheme. | 11:26 |
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| mithro | morning people | 12:52 |
| mithro | jphr: you where after me? | 12:52 |
| jphr | mithro: I didn't think I was | 12:52 |
| mithro | oh? I'm sure you pinged me yesterday | 12:53 |
| jphr | oh ya, hmm, I gotta think now what I wanted to know. You don't perchance know what time I pinged you at? | 12:53 |
| mithro | just checking the logs | 12:53 |
| mithro | http://www.thousandparsec.net/~irc/logs/%23tp.2008-05-29.log.html#t2008-05-29T18:06:40 | 12:54 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1ti9> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 12:54 |
| jphr | 6, geez, I can't say I remember what I wanted. I'm sure it will come up again later if it was important | 12:55 |
| jphr | oh | 12:56 |
| jphr | Planets, at least when I tried, don't render on the map when they don't have a star system. I think I was wondering if you knew a way to force a star to render on the map if it didn't have a star? | 12:56 |
| mithro | oh, I know what the problem is | 12:57 |
| mithro | my bad :) | 12:57 |
| mithro | you will need starsystems | 12:57 |
| mithro | log a bug report | 12:57 |
| CIA-28 | mithro libtpclient-py-stable * r4ac9b14dcb41 /tp/client/ChangeList.py: Added ServerOrder property. | 12:58 |
| CIA-28 | mithro libtpclient-py-stable * r2c81920c9d8f /tp/client/ChangeList.py: Added method to determine the slot on the server. | 12:58 |
| CIA-28 | mithro libtpclient-py-stable * r22f020bf66d5 /tp/client/ (cache.py threads.py): Moved the apply method out of threads and into the cache file. | 12:58 |
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| jphr | alright, you had mentioned yesterday you could tell me how to write a proper bug report? | 13:07 |
| jphr | (and yah, I had reverted back to star systems for the time being) | 13:08 |
| mithro | oh? | 13:08 |
| jphr | just so I can see where things are as I arrange the map (and also so I can properly test things) | 13:08 |
| mithro | I thought I had explained what is required for a good bug report :) | 13:09 |
| jphr | oh, same as asking for help? | 13:09 |
| jphr | (maybe you were mentioning it to someone else and I thought you were talking to me) | 13:10 |
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| mithro | no, I was saying that they should follow the instructions I gave you | 13:11 |
| jphr | haha, well I was wondering, I thought you had already given me instructions :P | 13:12 |
| jphr | I did see that my resources were properly displaying yesterday. I have a graph with all my planets laid out properly and connected, and am transposing the #'s to my .cpp today. | 13:13 |
| mithro | might I suggest creating a simple fileformat that you read in? | 13:14 |
| mithro | so people can change the map? | 13:14 |
| jphr | I would hope for that as well. XML? | 13:14 |
| mithro | dunno | 13:15 |
| mithro | possibly something like a graphic file could work | 13:15 |
| mithro | IE a bitmap or something? | 13:15 |
| jphr | Its not wrong of me to suggest I implement that later in the summer? | 13:15 |
| mithro | jphr: nope, as long as it's clear that is what you are doing | 13:16 |
| jphr | I'll make a note to add that to my plans | 13:16 |
| jphr | As for connectivity, I was thinking about a sparse matrix. Do you think accessing a sparse matrix every time an adjacent planet is needed would be bad for performance? | 13:17 |
| mithro | I have no idea | 13:17 |
| jphr | (that way I wouldn't need to manually enter a ridiculous amount of adjacency lists manually) Test it when I get there? | 13:17 |
| mithro | and I doubt it would be that much of a problem | 13:18 |
| jphr | ok. And another question before I forget. You mentioned weekly reports would be more tightly scrutinized this week. Had you seen this one? http://www.hammerofcode.com/2008/05/weekly-report-2/ | 13:19 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1tiN> (at www.hammerofcode.com) | 13:19 |
| mithro | jphr: that is a bit short | 13:20 |
| mithro | links to stuff you have done are good | 13:20 |
| mithro | (or specific commits) | 13:20 |
| jphr | ok. I had gotten comments my first one was a little long: http://www.hammerofcode.com/2008/05/weekly-report-2/ | 13:20 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1tiN> (at www.hammerofcode.com) | 13:20 |
| mithro | jphr: I think the first report is not really in a good format | 13:21 |
| jphr | ok | 13:21 |
| jphr | (i remember I was having formatting issues) | 13:22 |
| jphr | bullet points? | 13:22 |
| mithro | the second one has better format | 13:22 |
| jphr | detail of the first in the format of the second? | 13:22 |
| mithro | yeah kind of | 13:22 |
| jphr | ok, I will try and make it better this time. Please let me know what you think after I post | 13:23 |
| mithro | of course the reason I'm making a bigger deal is so that you keep making it better and doing them | 13:23 |
| mithro | ~seen vi1985 | 13:23 |
| tpb | mithro: vi1985 was last seen in #tp 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 54 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <vi1985> hey llnz | 13:23 |
| jphr | mithro: oh no problem, i don't take any offense to guidance. I would rather have more of it than less. | 13:24 |
| mithro | you need to independent, but feel free to ask questions lots | 13:28 |
| jphr | I try, even though I do feel like I am being a bother some times | 13:29 |
| mithro | don't worry about it | 13:29 |
| mithro | you need to develop a pipeline so that you can continue when you get blocked with a problem | 13:29 |
| jphr | :P Hey I have a question. Maps in the southern hemisphere have australia in the top left correct? | 13:30 |
| mithro | IE if you get stuck with something like resources, so then do a the bitmap loading or something | 13:30 |
| mithro | jphr: no :) | 13:30 |
| jphr | oh, so they are north america in the top left? | 13:30 |
| mithro | kind of | 13:31 |
| mithro | the globe is round, top left doesn't mean much ;) | 13:31 |
| jphr | (I didn't want you "southies" to be offended when I hard coded the risk board in the north american style, lol) | 13:31 |
| mithro | oh, are you talking specificly about a risk board? | 13:31 |
| mithro | I have no idea | 13:31 |
| jphr | You'll get to see pics of what I've done later today ;) | 13:32 |
| mithro | he he, cool | 13:33 |
| jphr | I don't know if you read my post yesterday night, but I really, really, want to work in the last part of my summer to try and get lines drawing for connectivity | 13:33 |
| mithro | there isn't much you can do on the server side | 13:34 |
| jphr | grrrr.... I just don't want it to be to unclear for players | 13:34 |
| mithro | jphr: feel free to help out with the various clients :) | 13:35 |
| jphr | I will, doing rulesets is a great start, but at times it seems like I am producing less of my own code than I would like. | 13:35 |
| jphr | and more of reusing and repurposing other peoples code | 13:35 |
| mithro | the client can draw lines when you are issuing orders | 13:36 |
| jphr | that might work then | 13:36 |
| mithro | jphr: it's called coding | 13:36 |
| mithro | good coders write, great coders steal ;) | 13:36 |
| jphr | mithro: I just see a lot of education as very off and incomplete | 13:37 |
| mithro | jphr: well, steal is not quite the wrong word | 13:38 |
| jphr | I learn so much more from great books like beautiful code and this project than I have in school. that book is really neat actually, it takes the approach of providing elegant/beautiful examples so coders can actually reflect on others work | 13:38 |
| mithro | as well, most problems have already been solved by other people a lot smarter then you :) | 13:38 |
| jphr | yes, but maybe they are the chumps for doing all the hard work! :P | 13:40 |
| jphr | As an aside, I do so the prospect of importing maps as something that would be a bit more challenging and perhaps even more rewarding than the ruleset | 13:40 |
| mithro | jphr: hrm? no point having maps if you can't play a game on them :) | 13:41 |
| jphr | yes very true | 13:41 |
| mithro | allowing people to select maps is a good addition | 13:42 |
| jphr | If time permits in SoC, or even after, I would also like to contribute my experience in learning all of this to writing more documentation or generic classes for ruleset development | 13:42 |
| mithro | I think you should aim to have the core risk running in about a month | 13:42 |
| mithro | jphr: sure | 13:42 |
| mithro | feel free to do it as you work in GSoC | 13:43 |
| mithro | Asmm: feel free to ask here :) | 13:43 |
| mithro | then I can always link other people to this conversation :) | 13:43 |
| jphr | k. Having gotten more into coding I would hope in a week or 2 I could get orders implemented and another week for turn processing | 13:43 |
| mithro | jphr: debugging the core ruleset is going to take a while | 13:44 |
| mithro | (even though it's so simple) | 13:44 |
| jphr | I would imagine so | 13:44 |
| mithro | 5% of the project takes 95% of the time | 13:45 |
| mithro | just ask xdotx | 13:45 |
| Asmm | hello again | 13:45 |
| jphr | So as a corollary, should I focus more so on getting a semi-buggy complete ruleset going in a month? | 13:45 |
| Asmm | a friend of mine got into the project via SoC, he is doing the java client/ajava ai part | 13:46 |
| mithro | you might want to keep an eye out for AI's which might be able to play Risk and adapt to Thousand Parsec | 13:46 |
| mithro | as an AI helps you squash bugs much quicker | 13:46 |
| jphr | will do | 13:46 |
| Asmm | so as a friendly competition (and as a result of a bit of extra time) i was thinking to try my own AI agent for the game (not sure abotu rulesets yet). I have some experience doing those, so well, why not try it fo rthe fun of it | 13:47 |
| mithro | Asmm: sure, I'm assuming this is vi1985? | 13:47 |
| jphr | mithro: I'll let you chat with asmm, I should get back to work :P | 13:47 |
| Asmm | i've asked someone, i think JLP already, for some pointers as to where to start, however the docs ar enot perfect and prefer to get a few more pointers :) | 13:47 |
| Asmm | yeap | 13:47 |
| mithro | jphr: I'm perfectly happy to have to conversations at once | 13:48 |
| Asmm | sorry to interrupt jphr, i started this in a private conversation, but mithro suggested to switch here | 13:48 |
| jphr | asmm: no no your not interupting, I am having trouble coding and chatting at the same time :P | 13:48 |
| mithro | Asmm: we also have another student doing a RFTS AI too | 13:48 |
| mithro | Asmm: which languages do you prefer? | 13:49 |
| jphr | mithro: I think my mind is a little overloaded atm anyways, I should get some coding done, before moving onto recording some of the ideas I have had in the blog/wiki | 13:49 |
| Asmm | java or python works, but fort an AI i think i like java more | 13:49 |
| mithro | jphr: okay cool | 13:49 |
| Asmm | i know C very well and C++ well, but dont want to mess with those for the project | 13:49 |
| jphr | mithro: just ping me if you need me so I get a notification | 13:50 |
| mithro | jphr: no probs, same goes for me | 13:50 |
| jphr | later | 13:50 |
| mithro | Asmm: we have protocol librarys in Python, C++ and Java | 13:50 |
| Asmm | i know that. I knwo for java you have the basic protocol lib done and thats about it, right? | 13:51 |
| mithro | it's a protocol library rather then a "client library" | 13:51 |
| Asmm | i know where the doc about protocol is (http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/dev/documents/protocol3.php), and i know where the java lib is | 13:51 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/Ix2> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 13:51 |
| mithro | (in my understanding) | 13:51 |
| mithro | I don't know a huge amount about the java protocol library | 13:52 |
| Asmm | now, the SoC guys have some obligations to the project as to what they have to do, i'm simply interested in making a working client in the simplest way possible, and just concentrate on the AI logic | 13:52 |
| mithro | Asmm: then python is probably the best choice | 13:52 |
| Asmm | i dont need those, what i need is a better understanding about the structurte of the project/ client-server model, lib/language doesnt matter | 13:52 |
| mithro | it has the most advance protocol/client libraries | 13:52 |
| mithro | Asmm: we are pretty flexible with our GSoC students :) | 13:54 |
| Asmm | (and also a suggestion as to what server to run for testing, what ruleset is good for starters, etc. I mean, the description is there, but want some human advice as to whats better) | 13:54 |
| mithro | Minisec has some AI you might want to test against | 13:55 |
| Asmm | ok. | 13:55 |
| mithro | we have 3 major ruleset yet | 13:55 |
| mithro | Minisec - simple testing ruleset, a little uninteresting for people | 13:55 |
| mithro | MTSec - more advance ruleset, yet to be finished | 13:55 |
| Asmm | ok, a few very dumb questions :) | 13:56 |
| Asmm | 1) what does ruleset include? What is a good reading abotu that, but just in a few words? | 13:57 |
| mithro | RFTS - most advanced ruleset, Two AIs being developed GSoC, getting the most love | 13:57 |
| Asmm | 2) the rpotocol.. I've been reading abotu various frames a server/client can get and send, and couldnt see "ruleset describing" frames? Does it mean, that both teh server and the client shoudl agree on the ruleset in advance, and it is hardcoded? | 13:57 |
| mithro | Asmm: there is not good reading anywhere, a ruleset is the "game logic" - it dictates what exists in the universe and what things can do | 13:58 |
| mithro | Asmm: tp03 has hardcoded object types, tp04 has dynamicaly defined object types | 13:59 |
| Asmm | so with the current tp03, the client shoudl know in advance what kinds of objects exist, what actions can be taken, etc, right? and so one AI client shoudl work with ust that ruleset server? | 13:59 |
| mithro | Asmm: no, only what type of objects exist | 14:00 |
| mithro | tp03 has always had dynamic orders | 14:00 |
| Asmm | ok... so without going into details, how the system is supposed to work? Like: a) connect to a server (whatever it involves) b) get ruleset? c) get universe description? d) internally process it and -> e) issue orders f) repeat c)-e) steps? | 14:01 |
| mithro | kind of | 14:01 |
| SmokingRope | my understanding of it was that the protocol defines the type of frames which can be sent, and the ruleset describes the data sent in the frames | 14:01 |
| Asmm | and so, without knowing the ruleset, can you figure it out by connecting to the server? In tp03 description i couldnt see any "frames" which have any kind of ruleset description? | 14:02 |
| mithro | a) connect to a server, b) download the universe (each time to see an object/order you have not seen before just ask the server about it) c) issue orders, d) wait till a turn generation occurs | 14:02 |
| Asmm | ok, so the idea is that for each object you get all possible orders as part of universe description? What about limits, for example, no more than 3 ships in the fleet (which is not an order), how can those be figured? | 14:03 |
| CIA-28 | jphr tpserver-cpp-risk * rc7090dc54846 /modules/games/risk/risk.cpp: Changed star system creation from test values to real locations. | 14:04 |
| Asmm | and btw, on the doc page (http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/dev/documents.php) there is description of the MTsec and minisec, but not the RFTS ruleset, the most loved one :) ? | 14:04 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1t+n> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 14:04 |
| mithro | Asmm: the only way to manipulate the universe is to use orders | 14:05 |
| mithro | so all manipulation logic is store in orders | 14:05 |
| mithro | arbitrary limits (such as 3 ships in a fleet) are strongly discouraged too | 14:06 |
| Asmm | yes, but, well, say there is a game which says "no more than 10 fleet sin the universe". At THIS moment this may not be a limit for the agent, and all the orders it can issue are not affected by that (by not affected i mean the server does not limit the set of available oders). But in a few turns this limit may kick in (which will resut i nless "ship creation" orders for example. But the agent which may plan into the future m | 14:07 |
| Asmm | Or, as you said, those arbitrary limits are absent from most rulesets used? | 14:07 |
| mithro | No ruleset has those limits that I know of | 14:09 |
| mithro | but you would just have some of your orders not go through | 14:09 |
| mithro | in a very determined way | 14:10 |
| Asmm | ok... (but doesnt sound too good, as how would you know, if you did not know about the limits in advance? Figuring the limits by checkign which orders dont go by woudlnt be easy for a human, yet alone ai agent). anyway :) | 14:11 |
| mithro | s/determined/deterministic/ | 14:11 |
| mithro | Asmm: humans know because they have read the rules | 14:11 |
| mithro | AI's will have to have it hard coded in some way | 14:11 |
| Asmm | this issue aside, there is a fine description of the kinds of "frames" that can be sent and receive, but no obvious description of the normal way things are going to happen. Maybe just a link to a doc describuing normal sequence? I.e., first a "map" famse, with those objects, and orders assosiated etc. i mean.... ok, i may be a bit lazy :|, but from the raw description it is a bit hard to infer the logic of which things get | 14:12 |
| Asmm | ok, that was my question - that you HAVE to hardcode a few things | 14:12 |
| mithro | Asmm: only for AI's | 14:12 |
| Asmm | well, yeah, thats what we are interested in now :) | 14:13 |
| mithro | for clients with a human attached, you can use the fact that a human is slightly intelligent | 14:13 |
| Asmm | of course | 14:13 |
| mithro | there is no "obvious description of the normal way of things to happen" | 14:13 |
| Asmm | but i'm only talking from an AI client perspective now | 14:13 |
| mithro | Asmm: oh okay | 14:14 |
| Asmm | (the consequence is, the same Ai may not be able to play all rulesets, though yeah, may be able to play many) | 14:14 |
| mithro | Asmm: have you tried out tpclient-pywx? | 14:14 |
| Asmm | umm | 14:14 |
| Asmm | yes, i have that one | 14:15 |
| Asmm | (honestly, did not like it very much :( | 14:15 |
| mithro | Asmm: that is correct, some games might be trading based or diplomacy | 14:15 |
| mithro | Asmm: we open to suggestions on how to make it better (as long at it's not graphics based -> see the new 3d client for that) | 14:16 |
| Asmm | not the "bells and whistles", i would be fine with a text interface, but the interface is not very clear, though of course manageable | 14:16 |
| mithro | Asmm: feel free to suggest how we could make it clearer | 14:16 |
| Asmm | ok. BTW, i knwo that one thing is to cr4iticize another to improve. But you asked first about the client? | 14:17 |
| mithro | we get so use to the interface, we stop seeing problems | 14:17 |
| Asmm | i know what you mean :) | 14:19 |
| mithro | be nice however ;) | 14:19 |
| Asmm | yes sir! ;) | 14:19 |
| Asmm | anyway, a few things got cleare, but now | 14:21 |
| Asmm | say I want to do the cleint/agent now.. what woudl be a good order of things to be done? | 14:21 |
| Asmm | which server to use (i assume servers have rulesets embedded). Which other code branchews (other AIs) to check for samples? | 14:22 |
| mithro | Asmm: so you want to create an AI? | 14:22 |
| Asmm | true | 14:22 |
| mithro | okay, tpserver-cpp (from git) is the best server to use atm | 14:22 |
| mithro | it's the only server to have RFTS, so if you are interested in that you'll need to use tpserver-cpp | 14:23 |
| Asmm | what about the simplest ruleset, minisec i presume? | 14:23 |
| mithro | minisec is the simplest | 14:23 |
| Asmm | the thing is, i guess i'm mor einterested in a bette ruleset, but befor ei do a hello world agent ther eis not much point in anything else, and hello world is easier for the simplest ruleset i guess | 14:24 |
| Asmm | which server to use for that one? | 14:24 |
| mithro | both servers support minisec, but tpserver-cpp has more testing | 14:24 |
| Asmm | let that agent just print a map locally for me, and then i know i'm ok :) | 14:24 |
| Asmm | ok | 14:24 |
| mithro | take a look at tpsai-py | 14:25 |
| Asmm | it is for minisec, right? | 14:25 |
| mithro | that is a simple AI for minisec | 14:26 |
| Asmm | ok | 14:26 |
| Asmm | btw, any mailing list and/or emails of peoles i can speak with other than IRC? Thos eother guys doing AI? anything else to get into the project? | 14:27 |
| mithro | it has had about a week worth of development | 14:28 |
| mithro | tp-devel is the best | 14:28 |
| Asmm | btw, demo1 * demo2.thousandparsec.net server seem to be running minisec? | 14:33 |
| mithro | demo1 is | 14:34 |
| mithro | demo2 was running RFTS i think | 14:35 |
| mithro | I don't know if llnz change it back to minisec | 14:35 |
| Asmm | ok, thanks. well, will go read more docs now | 14:37 |
| mithro | jumping in is probably the best way | 14:43 |
| CIA-28 | jphr tpserver-cpp-risk * rbfdd633182b7 /modules/games/risk/risk.cpp: Fixed Alfirk being too far south | 14:44 |
| Asmm | btw, things like speed of fleet travel, it seems a client should hardcode that as well? | 14:49 |
| mithro | not really | 14:52 |
| mithro | move orders report how long they will take | 14:52 |
| mithro | and designs have properties like speed | 14:52 |
| mithro | so you might have to hardcode some heuristic, but it should be fairly flexible | 14:52 |
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| mithro | well heading to lunch | 15:03 |
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| CIA-28 | jphr tpserver-cpp-risk * rb1d238f7b275 /modules/games/risk/risk.cpp: Added some TODO comments | 15:55 |
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| CIA-28 | victor.ivri gencon-rfts-ai * r1bf45ca83996 /gencon/ (Client.java utils/ScannerListener.java): input listener ironed out and tested; user can now close the client at will by entering an agreed-upon string. Additionally, all user input cleared of bugs. | 19:44 |
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| CIA-28 | llnz tpserver-cpp * r76455926d482 /tpserver/ (avahi.cpp metaserverconnection.cpp): | 23:15 |
| CIA-28 | Only use TurnTimer if it's not NULL in Avahi and MetaserverConnection. | 23:15 |
| CIA-28 | Should prevent some segfaults/bus errors. | 23:15 |
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| CIA-28 | llnz tpserver-cpp * rad69533fc882 /tpserver/playeragent.cpp: Allow getting the player's board by either 0 or it's actual ID. | 23:31 |
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