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| mithro | llnz: he he | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| mithro | wow, we have 28 people in here | 00:06 |
| brennan_ | woot! | 00:06 |
| mithro | I think that is a record | 00:06 |
| midorikid | Standing room only. | 00:07 |
| JLP | mithro: 31 was the highest | 00:07 |
| mithro | JLP: you keeping track? | 00:07 |
| JLP | mithro: yeah, i keep an eye on it :) | 00:07 |
| JLP | unless something is going on when I sleep :) | 00:07 |
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| * JLafont shouldn't mention the 50+ people parties we have here when JLP goes to sleep. | 00:13 | |
| brennan_ | hehe | 00:16 |
| * JLP hopes all these people didn't party too much and will not forget to submit applications :) | 00:16 | |
| Epyon | mithro, have you looked at my app? | 00:17 |
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| Epyon | nash, you're back :D | 00:18 |
| mithro | Epyon: sorry, have not had time | 00:18 |
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| mithro | got to actually do the work I get paid for | 00:18 |
| brennan_ | lol | 00:18 |
| Epyon | mithro, no worries :) | 00:18 |
| mithro | JLP: ping? | 00:19 |
| JLP | mithro: pong | 00:19 |
| mithro | oh wait | 00:19 |
| mithro | you heading to bed soon? | 00:20 |
| JLP | mithro: should be, 5:24 here | 00:20 |
| mithro | JLP: the orders problem is cause by RFTS not resetting the modified value on your objects | 00:20 |
| mithro | s/modified/modtime/ | 00:20 |
| mithro | so tpclient doesn't redownload them | 00:21 |
| mithro | and hence the order types don't change | 00:21 |
| nash | Epyon: Yes, but don't tell anyone ;-) | 00:21 |
| JLP | mithro: oh, makes sense ye | 00:21 |
| Epyon | nash, I submitted an enchanced EliteSec proposal :> | 00:22 |
| nash | Heh - cool | 00:22 |
| nash | Epyon: You could resubmit last years proposal too ;-) | 00:22 |
| Epyon | The procedural design one? | 00:23 |
| Epyon | starship design* | 00:23 |
| nash | Yes | 00:24 |
| nash | although elite sec could be cool - is it on the wiki? | 00:24 |
| Epyon | Nope I submitted it directly to the app | 00:24 |
| Epyon | I can upload it to the wiki if you want thou' | 00:25 |
| nash | Yeah, I'll read it after vil985's one | 00:25 |
| Epyon | Af for the other one -- no way! That stuff is scary :P. I did procedural cities and now I see that procedural starships would be scary as hell :P | 00:25 |
| nash | heh - okay | 00:26 |
| mithro | I wonder if you could "grow" space ships kind of like procedual trees | 00:26 |
| mithro | with a kind of genetic/neural net feedback loop based on a "hot or not" like web app | 00:27 |
| Epyon | You can. The catch only is you need solid boolean geometry for that | 00:27 |
| CIA-13 | noegnud tpclient-pywx-stable * r98e4dff39d60 /windows/main/ (overlays/Resource.py winIdleFinder.py): Removed commented-out code from Resource overlay and IdleFinder window. | 00:28 |
| Epyon | nash, http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/User:Epyon/EliteSec | 00:31 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jYP> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 00:31 |
| Epyon | I wikified it a little too | 00:32 |
| nash | Epyon: It's on the list of things to read, hopefully today | 00:32 |
| Epyon | As for me, it's time for a beer :D | 00:32 |
| Epyon | If I'm still on the channel when you read it, please comment on it :) | 00:32 |
| brennan_ | With this new version of my proposal, should i make a note of where i made changes? | 00:32 |
| brennan_ | i know that was a wierd question | 00:33 |
| mithro | brennan_: that would be helpful | 00:33 |
| mithro | of course if you are using the wiki you get that free with the history page :) | 00:33 |
| Epyon | brennan_, no it's not -- actually better note it -- no one wants to read a whole proposal if only a few lines changed :) | 00:33 |
| brennan_ | lol | 00:34 |
| brennan_ | wait | 00:34 |
| brennan_ | there is a wiki? or do you mean the TP wiki? | 00:34 |
| Epyon | http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/ | 00:34 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec Wiki - Thousand Parsec Wiki (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 00:34 |
| brennan_ | Epyon: i figured that it would be, i just wanted to make sure it wouldnt look tacky | 00:35 |
| Epyon | mithro, is the other 3d engine proposal online? | 00:35 |
| mithro | not sure | 00:35 |
| JLP | i've seen that at wesnoth all the proposals are on the wiki | 00:36 |
| Epyon | JLP, I noticed your comment on one of the other apps -- is Game Programming experience that important? | 00:37 |
| JLP | Epyon: i'm just helping the peple to mention everything they can that would be a plus, this is just one of those | 00:39 |
| * Epyon wonders if he mentioned everything | 00:39 | |
| Epyon | JLP, should I like mention ... everything ... related? | 00:40 |
| nash | brennan_: Put a note that makes it clear it has updated - a revisions sections, and let the wiki take care of it | 00:40 |
| JLP | it would then be great if students would go around on forums and other public places with coments and think the same, did i mention this... | 00:40 |
| JLP | probably we should compile a list of the most frequent comments in one place | 00:41 |
| Epyon | JLP, it's just that it's quite hard to decide what you'd consider revelant, and what would just be boasting | 00:43 |
| mithro | JLafont: ping? How goes your python-ogre application? | 00:44 |
| mithro | ~seen JLafont | 00:45 |
| tpb | mithro: JLafont was last seen in #tp 31 minutes and 54 seconds ago: * JLafont shouldn't mention the 50+ people parties we have here when JLP goes to sleep. | 00:45 |
| JLafont | mithro: pong | 00:45 |
| JLafont | mithro: Just have to do timeline and milestones and i'll be done | 00:45 |
| mithro | JLafont: oh the other thing - I'm still not 100% happy with your milestones in your AI app | 00:45 |
| mithro | I think you need to say things like | 00:46 |
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| mithro | "The AI will connect to a server and issue move orders to it's scouts" | 00:46 |
| JLafont | ok | 00:46 |
| JLafont | I'll be more specific | 00:46 |
| mithro | not what the AI "can" do, what the AI "will do" | 00:47 |
| mithro | (or the user of the AI) | 00:47 |
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| mithro | The AI will be able to set the behaviour to "aggressive" which will cause the AI to actively seek out and destroy enemy colonies | 00:48 |
| JLafont | ok | 00:48 |
| mithro | s/The AI/The user/ | 00:48 |
| brennan_ | okies, i setup my wiki page with my application http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/User:Cbrennan | 00:49 |
| mithro | IE It's the difference between "tpclient-pywx can support 3d coordinates" to "tpclient-pywx will display objects in a 3d starmap" | 00:49 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jYi> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 00:49 |
| brennan_ | i havent updated it yet from last night though, im working on that right now | 00:50 |
| mithro | brennan_: my comments about timeline still apply | 00:50 |
| mithro | brennan_: okay | 00:50 |
| brennan_ | yeah | 00:50 |
| brennan_ | i know | 00:50 |
| brennan_ | im working on it right now | 00:50 |
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| mithro | wb andrei | 00:55 |
| mithro | brennan_: good good | 00:55 |
| andrei | mithro, Hey | 00:55 |
| andrei | mithro, Never buy a gateway laptop (it's why I log on and off of IRC, they overheat) | 00:56 |
| mithro | can you get gateway in Australia? | 00:56 |
| andrei | Not at the moment, they have some sort of really confusing deal with Asus or soemthing of the sort preventing them from temporarely selling things outside of the US | 00:56 |
| JLafont | Never buy a Tangent, they charge you $1,000 to replace an LCD on a 4 year old laptop. | 00:56 |
| andrei | Even the gateway people were confused by what was going on.. | 00:57 |
| mithro | have to run a erran will be back in 30 minutes | 00:57 |
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| llnz | hi Arc | 01:02 |
| Epyon | For 1000$ you can buy a pretty decent new laptop here O.o | 01:04 |
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| CIA-13 | noegnud tpclient-pywx-stable * r12275a1b8a96 /windows/main/winIdleFinder.py: Cleaned up and commented code in winIdleFinder.py | 01:10 |
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| llnz | hi Nuleren | 01:53 |
| Nuleren | hello | 01:53 |
| Nuleren | I just sent in my app a little bit ago | 01:54 |
| llnz | cool | 01:54 |
| llnz | hehe, add your irc nick to your application :-) | 01:55 |
| Nuleren | its at the bottom =P | 01:55 |
| Nuleren | I can move it up to the top though | 01:55 |
| llnz | ah, hadn't got that far yet | 01:55 |
| llnz | nope, its fine | 01:55 |
| Nuleren | my app ended up being a lot longer than I intended... | 01:56 |
| Nuleren | I tried to include all the rules for the ruleset, but there was no way it would fit in the 7500 char limit | 01:57 |
| Epyon | Nuleren, don't worry, all my apps are around the 10k limit :P | 01:57 |
| Epyon | The malicious could say I talk too much and do too little ^^ | 01:57 |
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| Nuleren | I think my unabridged version hit about 15k ;) | 01:58 |
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| Epyon | Nuleren, what did you apply for? | 01:58 |
| Epyon | Nuleren, if I hadn't had the limit in mind I'd probably hit 20k :P | 01:58 |
| Epyon | Or more D: | 01:58 |
| Nuleren | Epyon: I'm applying to make a ruleset clone that's also a game that should take about an hour to play | 01:59 |
| Nuleren | Epyon: Its a modified version of the board game Tigris and Euphrates | 02:00 |
| Epyon | Ah | 02:00 |
| Epyon | SpaceTigris and NebulaEuphrates? :P | 02:00 |
| Nuleren | I was thinking "The Fertile Parsec" | 02:01 |
| Epyon | heh | 02:01 |
| Epyon | I like my name -- short and cool -- EliteSec :P | 02:01 |
| Nuleren | nice | 02:01 |
| * Epyon opens up today's last beer | 02:02 | |
| midorikid | Lee, I've created a wiki page for my GSoC proposal. It's for a protocol compliance test suite. Do you think you could take a look since that's right down your lane? | 02:03 |
| midorikid | http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/MidoriKid%27s_proposal_for_GSoC | 02:04 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jZa> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 02:04 |
| llnz | midorikid: sure | 02:04 |
| midorikid | Great, thanks! | 02:04 |
| llnz | Nuleren: typo in your pdf, page 3: "Player 3 wins", should be player 2, afaict | 02:07 |
| llnz | (section 3.4) | 02:07 |
| Nuleren | ahh thanks | 02:07 |
| JLafont | 3D client proposal done! | 02:09 |
| JLafont | I sent it to the mailing list for judging and butchering | 02:10 |
| JLafont | Well, hopefully it is not that bad | 02:14 |
| * llnz stops reading for a minute to go fix dinner | 02:18 | |
| llnz | bbs | 02:18 |
| JLafont | ... now I'm hungry | 02:18 |
| mithro | wow, that took way longer then expected | 02:31 |
| JLafont | meetings have a way of doing that | 02:37 |
| brennan_ | lol | 02:37 |
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| Nuleren | time for me to get some sleep... goodnight all | 02:44 |
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| * llnz is back | 02:45 | |
| llnz | midorikid: good proposal | 02:51 |
| llnz | dates are better than what week | 02:51 |
| Epyon | I never understood that date stuff :/ | 02:52 |
| Epyon | Dates are for major milestones. Any more specific you get the more chaos ensures. | 02:52 |
| Epyon | Not that I have anything against chaos :P | 02:53 |
| Arc | the Vorlons do, and theirs is the only opinion that counts in that matter | 02:53 |
| Epyon | Vorlons O.o | 02:53 |
| Epyon | WTF are Vorlons? o.O | 02:53 |
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| Arc | not a B5 fan, I see. | 02:54 |
| Epyon | Nope, I don't do coke xP | 02:54 |
| Epyon | (joke) | 02:54 |
| llnz | and i'm still a little confused as to what exactly you are going to test | 02:54 |
| Epyon | Didn't y'know? There's always something to test! | 02:55 |
| midorikid | Hi, I'm back. | 02:55 |
| Epyon | midorikid-san, llnz read your proposal, apparently you're more lucky than me :P | 02:55 |
| midorikid | llnz: Thanks! Specifically I'm testing the serialization and deserialization for the cpp server and client libraries. | 02:56 |
| llnz | Epyon: your's are on my todo list | 02:56 |
| midorikid | There's a little more to it, though. | 02:56 |
| llnz | midorikid: so testing the protocol stream? | 02:56 |
| Epyon | llnz, I imagine those got quite big :] | 02:56 |
| llnz | Epyon: you have no idea | 02:57 |
| llnz | many of the proposals are enormous | 02:57 |
| llnz | Epyon: in fact i've had you two open since they were posted, just so much happening | 02:57 |
| llnz | and having to work | 02:57 |
| llnz | (which is over now) | 02:58 |
| JLafont | Who are you? What do you want? | 02:58 |
| midorikid | Moslty the lower level stream, but I also want to have tests for higher level things like making sure a server responds with the correct error frame when sent a bad request, for example. | 02:58 |
| Epyon | llnz, I'm just counting that a true man can tell that it's not size that matters xP | 02:58 |
| llnz | Epyon: i did have a quick read of EliteSec, and am very interested | 02:58 |
| llnz | midorikid: ah, cool | 02:59 |
| Epyon | llnz, that's cool, cause so am I :D | 02:59 |
| * Epyon hopes TP will get 5 slots this year. | 02:59 | |
| * llnz hopes for 10! | 02:59 | |
| midorikid | Or more! | 02:59 |
| Epyon | llnz, I'm a realist :) | 03:00 |
| Epyon | Last year we were hoping for 5 and got 3. | 03:00 |
| Epyon | I hope this year it will be 5. | 03:00 |
| * Epyon wonders if there's a correlation between the amount of apps and the amount of slots gained. | 03:01 | |
| JLafont | Arc, The Shadow ships were much cooler than the Vorlon's pseudo living ones | 03:01 |
| JLafont | Epyon: There is a post where they mention something about it | 03:01 |
| Arc | and both shipes could be done much better with desktop 3d cards | 03:02 |
| JLafont | yeah | 03:02 |
| Arc | ^ modern | 03:02 |
| Epyon | If so, I could reapply my proposal from last year for count's sake | 03:02 |
| JLafont | I'm kinda sad they cancelled that show, I even liked the spin-off | 03:04 |
| * Epyon is furious they canceled Firefly | 03:04 | |
| JLafont | Epyon, well... its Fox.. thats what they do | 03:05 |
| llnz | same here Epyon, firefly rocked | 03:05 |
| Epyon | :) | 03:05 |
| JLafont | OMG this show has good ratings!! Lets cancel is and add more Simpsons and reality TV! | 03:05 |
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| midorikid | I didn't start watching Firefly until it had already been canceled, but I still wanted more. :( | 03:06 |
| Epyon | Well, it's because they're not Japanese -_-. They couldn't see a good show even if it hit them in the face with a sledgehammer -_- | 03:06 |
| llnz | midorikid: watched serenity? | 03:06 |
| midorikid | Yeah, that's what prompted me to watch the series. haha Out of order. | 03:07 |
| JLafont | They cancelled... lets see.. Tidus, Arrested Development | 03:07 |
| llnz | hehe | 03:07 |
| JLafont | Family Guiy | 03:07 |
| Epyon | "Canceled" is the best rating FOX can give for me to watch a show xP | 03:07 |
| llnz | hehehe | 03:07 |
| midorikid | Futurama :( | 03:08 |
| JLafont | yeah | 03:08 |
| llnz | there is a list on wikipedia the for popular shows the fox canceled | 03:08 |
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| JLafont | I'm kinda sad, Fox has a decent new show out and I'm worried it'll get cancelled :( | 03:09 |
| llnz | Epyon: feedback here? pm? email? webapp? | 03:10 |
| brennan_ | okies, updated my application on the wiki. http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/User:Cbrennan | 03:17 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jYi> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 03:17 |
| brennan_ | ugh, its 330am here, i should get some sleep for class tomarrow, night all | 03:22 |
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| llnz | damn | 03:22 |
| llnz | just had some feedback for brennan_ | 03:22 |
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| midorikid | I'm off to bed, too. Good night, y'all! | 03:35 |
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| llnz | cya... | 03:36 |
| llnz | miss | 03:36 |
| llnz | wow, i might actually do some coding tonight | 03:39 |
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| llnz | hi mithro | 04:23 |
| llnz | or rather, wb | 04:24 |
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| BZA_ | mithro: hey mithro | 04:32 |
| mithro | hey BZA_! | 04:32 |
| BZA_ | mithro: I finally cought some time to work on my TP submission stuff, so here I am | 04:33 |
| mithro | cool | 04:33 |
| llnz | cool | 04:33 |
| BZA_ | mithro: ok, so if I remember correctly, you were telling me that acations for a turn are decided before turns are executed, or something to that effect, correct? | 04:35 |
| mithro | BZA_: yes - someone described it quite well earlier | 04:35 |
| mithro | [13:48] <ZylGadis> (turn-based is chess: I move, you move. tick-based is the typical browser game: everyone moves, tick, everyone moves, etc) | 04:37 |
| mithro | by that | 04:37 |
| mithro | we are "tick-based" | 04:37 |
| BZA_ | mithro: ok, so it seems like this somewhat breaks the Risk play flow, since where you place troops, where you attack, etc are all heavily based on the current state of the board at the beginning of your turn, and the board can change drastically between turns | 04:39 |
| BZA_ | mithro: but, maybe the way it can happen is that pre-turn decisions are not as heavily based on move decisions and then the only bug hurdle is making it such that if two territories attack each other in the same tick, how to resolve that | 04:46 |
| BZA_ | mithro: but the fundamental problem here is that with each of theresompromises, you are losing parts of what makes it a Risk clone. Ideally with a Risk clone, someone who has played Risk should be able to step in and not need to re-learn things | 04:48 |
| mithro | yes | 04:49 |
| mithro | that is true | 04:49 |
| mithro | you could probably change it into 1 person goes each turn | 04:49 |
| mithro | but again you need to resolve a complete turn | 04:50 |
| BZA_ | mithro: do you mean turn or tick? can one person go one tick and the next person go the next? | 04:50 |
| mithro | yeah | 04:51 |
| mithro | person A, tick, person B, tick, person C, tick | 04:51 |
| BZA_ | oh, well then that is fine then, no compromises should need to be made then. although it might take several ticks to resolve 1 turn | 04:52 |
| BZA_ | like player selects troop deploymet, tick, player selects first attack and it is resolved, tick, player attacks again..., tick, player reinforces, tick, next player's turn | 04:53 |
| BZA_ | mithro: basically break one game turn down into its phases where deployment and reinforcement are each one tick and then every attack and resolution is one tick | 04:57 |
| mithro | BZA_: you definately don't want to do that really | 04:57 |
| BZA_ | mithro: really | 04:57 |
| mithro | player 1, tick, player 2, tick would be much preferable | 04:58 |
| JLafont | alright, time for me to go sleep. | 05:00 |
| JLafont | mithro, First Draft of my PyOgre proposal is in the mailing list. | 05:01 |
| BZA_ | mithro: the problem with that is traditionally each attack requires resolution before the next can be properly plotted | 05:01 |
| JLafont | nite everyone | 05:01 |
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| mithro | BZA_: it would definately change the stratergy | 05:01 |
| BZA_ | mithro: I wonder if the player was limited to one attack per turn how that would affect the pacing... | 05:02 |
| BZA_ | mithro: so am I right in my assumption that the curretn setup is that the player choses his actions to take and then, on the tick, those actions get resolved? | 05:04 |
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| llnz | BZA_: that is right | 05:26 |
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| BZA_ | llnz: so, where can I put the first draft of my Risk design up on the wiki, like the clone rulesetpage under Risk in space, or on a new Risk in space page? | 05:47 |
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| mithro | sorry about that | 05:59 |
| mithro | I went to dinner and still figuring out this setup | 05:59 |
| BZA_ | mithro: np, I am putting my design do up on Risk Alternate page | 06:02 |
| llnz | BZA_: that's fine | 06:05 |
| BZA_ | mithro: question: if a player has 2 armies in a territory and they select to place three more before their attack, if they attack from that territory, do I assume they have 5 units to attack with, or do I assume they have the amount of units they had at the very beginning of the turn? | 06:35 |
| mithro | BZA_: up to you | 06:36 |
| BZA_ | mithro: so I can resolve the number of units on the board when attacking without having to wait until the turn end? | 06:37 |
| mithro | BZA_: you could resolve things in a given order | 06:38 |
| BZA_ | mithro: okay, at the tick I first resolve troops on the boeard, then I resolve attacks, then I resolve reinforcements, that should work fine. | 06:39 |
| mithro | BZA_: makes sense | 06:39 |
| mithro | minisec in tpserver-py works the same way | 06:40 |
| mithro | does A, then B, then C, then D | 06:40 |
| BZA_ | mithro: there might be a problem though, since before the tick the player needs to select how many armies from that territory to attack with =/ | 06:46 |
| mithro | BZA_: a player should be able to figure it out | 06:46 |
| mithro | BZA_: and so should a server | 06:46 |
| mithro | (IE it knows if the first order is "Add Troops: 5" and the Second is "Attack <abc> with x" | 06:47 |
| BZA_ | mithro: I agree, but what about the case where when it comes to attack resolution and there are only 5 units in the territory, but the player selected 6 units before the tick? | 06:48 |
| mithro | do something reasonable? | 06:49 |
| BZA_ | mithro: yeah, ok. If the player makes a mistake, we just correct/round it durring resolution | 06:49 |
| BZA_ | mithro: so, I have the Risk Alternate page up to date and factoring in all the tick based stuff, if you get a chance, please take a look | 07:01 |
| mithro | I will in a minute | 07:01 |
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| mithro | BZA_: do you have the link? | 07:23 |
| BZA_ | mithro: http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Risk_Alternate | 07:24 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jd4> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 07:24 |
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| mithro | sorry about taking so long | 07:24 |
| mithro | a harddrive in my home server died yesterday | 07:24 |
| mithro | still trying to re-setup my network | 07:24 |
| mithro | BZA_: okay that looks quite good but this is only really a start of the application | 07:27 |
| BZA_ | mithro: oh yeah, I am going to work on my application/proposal tomorrow | 07:28 |
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| BZA_ | mithro: ok mithro, I have to get some sleep. I will try to get on this weekend and get my proposal draft/app done tomorrow. Thanks for all your help tonight g'night. | 07:44 |
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| mithro | wb napi | 07:53 |
| napi | Thought I was getting a train this morning... I'm not \o/ going down later this afternoon at somepoint instead. figured instead of working, I'd research lol | 07:54 |
| mithro | cool | 07:55 |
| mithro | brb | 08:09 |
| JLP | mirning all | 08:11 |
| llnz | hi JLP | 08:12 |
| * llnz wanders off | 08:13 | |
| llnz | later all | 08:13 |
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| JLP | doze_, Trollin: ahoy, looks like you are new here and came while i was sleeping | 08:24 |
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| Ohm | hey people | 08:52 |
| xdotx | heya Ohm | 08:52 |
| Ohm | How many appliciants has TP got now? | 08:53 |
| JLP | Ohm: ahoy | 08:53 |
| JLP | Ohm: 14 | 08:53 |
| Ohm | alright, cool | 08:53 |
| JLP | it's going a bit slower this year, but the ones we got are very detailed and long | 08:54 |
| Ohm | yeah, I've been reading the mailing list | 08:54 |
| JLP | looks like people are waiting longer and working more on them before submitting | 08:54 |
| Ohm | that's gotta be better though | 08:57 |
| JLP | Ohm: yeah it is better quality, but i'm also afraid that the lower number of applications in the end will mean less slots | 09:00 |
| Ohm | If it's a general trend they have to take it into account when calculating the slots | 09:01 |
| Ohm | they did take in a load more mentor orgs than they had planned for, though | 09:01 |
| mithro | JLP: do you remeber how many applications came in at the last moment? | 09:05 |
| mithro | (last year?) | 09:05 |
| JLP | mithro: nope i don't | 09:05 |
| Ohm | hey, comparing 3D starmap vs tech tree browser, which would be worth more to you? | 09:06 |
| Ohm | Those are the two things I feel the most interest in doing | 09:07 |
| mithro | 3d starmap possibly | 09:07 |
| Ohm | starmap stuff actually intersects with some other projects I've been considering doing | 09:08 |
| Ohm | uh, and by starmap I mean research screen | 09:08 |
| Ohm | /tech browser | 09:08 |
| mithro | a cool tech browser would be good | 09:09 |
| mithro | but it's going to be a bit nebulous | 09:10 |
| mithro | as tp04 support has not been added to tpclient-pywx yet | 09:10 |
| mithro | and the research proposal is just being proposed now | 09:10 |
| Ohm | hm | 09:10 |
| JLP | and it will probably take even more time to have a ruleset that uses it | 09:10 |
| Ohm | That, coupled with needing to create everything to handle TP04/research might make this too large for 3 months | 09:11 |
| mithro | Ohm: well - we wouldn't expect that | 09:11 |
| mithro | Ohm: I think your task would be evenly divided between helping the the research stuff in tp04, implimenting a research GUI with dummy data and general client work | 09:12 |
| JLP | looks like i was bit too fast about all higher quality applications this year, the last 14th one about MTsec is lacking quite a lot of detail | 09:12 |
| Ohm | yeah | 09:12 |
| mithro | JLP: what are you looking at? | 09:13 |
| * mithro remebers he did a spreadsheet from last year somewhere.... | 09:13 | |
| JLP | mithro: in google webapp, the second one on the list | 09:13 |
| mithro | it's probably sitting on my server which is now in peices on my floor :( | 09:13 |
| mithro | JLP: it just appeared to bug you :) | 09:15 |
| JLP | mithro: yeah :( | 09:15 |
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| JLP | mithro: i got a feeling he didn't even take a good look at the state of MTsec and other stuff, if at all | 09:16 |
| mithro | napi: ping? | 09:16 |
| napi | mithro, pong | 09:16 |
| mithro | just reading your application now | 09:17 |
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| mithro | it's a rather unshal style of application :) | 09:17 |
| JLP | wtf is wrong with the firefox it's crashing all the time | 09:17 |
| napi | unshal = ? unusual? | 09:17 |
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| napi | hmm thats not good- used same layout and format for my 3 apps lol | 09:18 |
| mithro | napi: it reads like a discussion | 09:19 |
| napi | IMO thats how it should be to a degree | 09:19 |
| napi | I'm no expert on TP- the people reading it are | 09:19 |
| napi | I'm in no position to say "this is the way to do it"... rather I want to say "these are the options. Which is the best? I don't know- I'll have to look into them myself, and work with the devs and the community to find out" | 09:20 |
| napi | mithro, if you want me to re-write it to be more assertive I don't have a problem doing that- just make a quick comment and I'll get to work | 09:22 |
| mithro | napi: i heard you could just update anytime now | 09:23 |
| mithro | napi: okay things that need to be done | 09:24 |
| mithro | 1 - We need a timeline | 09:24 |
| mithro | 2 - We need to know how you are going to impliment it | 09:24 |
| mithro | is it going to be a C Apache module, PHP web app, Python FastCGI, etc? | 09:24 |
| napi | gah I hate timelines lol | 09:26 |
| mithro | napi: well, it gives us an idea of what your estimates are | 09:26 |
| mithro | how realistic you think things are | 09:26 |
| mithro | we also want functional milestone list | 09:26 |
| napi | hehe I know... I just don't like doing them :p | 09:26 |
| karol | Hi everybody, hope I'm not break any netiqette by asking straight away :) -> how high is the priority of the persistence module for GSoC? | 09:27 |
| napi | righty. ripping out the middle and re-writing | 09:27 |
| mithro | karol: that is entirely dependent on 1. number of slots, 2. llnz, 3. quality of the student | 09:30 |
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| mithro | a good quality student who is going to start with the SQL persistence and we think is likely to help llnz with the core of tpserver-cpp would be worth his weight in gold | 09:30 |
| karol | mithro: how many slots are there available? | 09:31 |
| Ohm | google still haven't announced that | 09:31 |
| mithro | karol: we won't know until after the student deadline | 09:32 |
| karol | mithro: pardon me, who/what is llnz? ;) | 09:32 |
| mithro | the slots are somewhat proportitional to the number of applications | 09:32 |
| karol | ad llnz> got it, google :) | 09:32 |
| mithro | llnz is the tpserver-cpp master | 09:33 |
| mithro | and will be mentoring all the tpserver-cpp tasks | 09:33 |
| mithro | ezod: ping? | 09:34 |
| mithro | napi: can you talk about the proposal first and yourself second | 09:34 |
| mithro | napi: you forgot that people can try out Thousand Parsec without having to download or install anything | 09:34 |
| napi | said that bit- "Without software dependancies, it opens up playing games to places that they might normally be restricted from (offices, schools, pda's!)" | 09:35 |
| napi | ie in places where users often can't install their own software | 09:36 |
| napi | and yeah, can change the order round | 09:36 |
| Ohm | web app? | 09:36 |
| napi | Ohm, yes | 09:36 |
| Ohm | cool | 09:36 |
| napi | mithro I just followed a template I saw from some mentors 'advice to students' page I read the other day. Will reverse it for you guys though :) | 09:36 |
| Ohm | make it fit on 640x480 :) | 09:36 |
| napi | mind if it has scrollbars? :p | 09:37 |
| Ohm | Yes. | 09:37 |
| Ohm | haha | 09:37 |
| mithro | napi: I think you are missing the point - people who play TP already are not necassrily the target - people who want to play thousand parsec for the first time are | 09:37 |
| napi | mithro fair point. Will emphasize that | 09:37 |
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| napi | god dammit why are both ruby channels well populated but completely dead | 09:45 |
| napi | so annoying | 09:45 |
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| napi | hmm | 09:53 |
| napi | trying to work out if theres a good solution that doesn't depend on apache | 09:53 |
| napi | that might well be the easiest way of doing it, but by far the less elegant | 09:53 |
| mithro | napi: whats wrong with just a CGI script? | 09:53 |
| napi | the clienty stuff I'm not worried about- theres a whole host of choices on how to do those- will worry about that in a minute | 09:54 |
| napi | but need to actually have the server push info to the web client | 09:55 |
| napi | so need to let it establish a connection, and be able to send/receive data | 09:55 |
| mithro | napi: ? | 09:55 |
| mithro | napi: would that not work like any other ajax | 09:56 |
| mithro | or those funky "download progress meeters" | 09:56 |
| napi | hmm maybe i'm over-complicating this, or maybe I'm not explaining what I mean | 09:58 |
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| napi | I hope it's the former, but I can't help but worry it's the latter | 09:58 |
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| mithro | napi: well, tpclients are based around doing an initial big download and then just incremental updates | 09:58 |
| napi | aye- I know how to do that stage already | 09:59 |
| napi | it's the stage before that | 09:59 |
| napi | establishing the connection and transferring the data | 09:59 |
| mithro | napi: I think something like those AJAX download progress pages would work fine | 10:00 |
| napi | heh you're still 1 step ahead of what I'm talking about | 10:00 |
| napi | to get to that stage (the download progress bar) you need to establish a connection with your browser | 10:00 |
| napi | which means the server has to be listening for it | 10:00 |
| napi | there's 2 ways of doing this | 10:00 |
| napi | either building a small-scale webserver into the existing tpserver process | 10:01 |
| napi | or building an apache module that acts as a middle-man | 10:01 |
| mithro | I think you are missing something | 10:01 |
| napi | it spoofs a tcp client connection to the server for sending/receiving (as the protocols are already there for doing it all), then sends/receives to a connected web client | 10:01 |
| napi | I think so lol \o/ | 10:02 |
| mithro | tpserver (on server a) <- tp protocol -> web client daemon half (on server b) <- SQL??? -> web client (on server b) <- http -> users browser | 10:03 |
| mithro | to the user, it just looks like any standard web 2.0 program | 10:04 |
| napi | umm - why 2 different servers? | 10:06 |
| napi | and why "half" for the daemon? | 10:06 |
| mithro | because server a could be any tpserver | 10:07 |
| mithro | because (server a) could be any tpserver | 10:07 |
| mithro | the web client is just a standard thousand parsec client | 10:08 |
| mithro | it's not intergrated into the client in anyway | 10:08 |
| mithro | it's not intergrated into the server in anyway | 10:08 |
| mithro | understand? | 10:11 |
| napi | yeah | 10:11 |
| napi | I know that | 10:11 |
| napi | it's the "web client daemon half" bit which is what I can't work out | 10:11 |
| mithro | I think of it something like this | 10:12 |
| mithro | a person submits information to a php form | 10:12 |
| mithro | which inserts into a mysql data "please connect to XYZ and download the universe" | 10:12 |
| mithro | the web client daemon half is watching the mysql database | 10:13 |
| mithro | and sees the message | 10:13 |
| mithro | so it makes a connection and downloads the universe into the mysql database | 10:13 |
| mithro | then inserts into a mysql database "I have downloaded the universe" | 10:13 |
| napi | then the web client collects it and sends it up to the browser | 10:16 |
| mithro | not really | 10:16 |
| mithro | the user then goes to a "starmap page" | 10:16 |
| mithro | which is generated from data in the database | 10:16 |
| mithro | like any other normal web application | 10:17 |
| mithro | of course it could be all ajaxy :) | 10:17 |
| napi | hehe ofc :p | 10:17 |
| mithro | no point sending the complete data about the universe to the browser if the user doesn't want to see it | 10:18 |
| napi | ah yeah- I worded that badly | 10:18 |
| mithro | of course it could be done with something other then mysql/php/etc | 10:18 |
| napi | I didn't mean sends it all up - meant it sends it up when the browser requests it | 10:18 |
| mithro | napi: yeah | 10:19 |
| napi | I think the daemonhalf and the web client could be merged into one tbh | 10:19 |
| mithro | the daemon is in charge of connecting to the tpserver-cpp and holding open a long term connection | 10:19 |
| napi | web client daemon is listening on port XXXX (http) but doesn't connect to tpserver-cpp until a connection is established | 10:20 |
| mithro | (as tp is designed around a stateful protocol and http is a stateless protocol) | 10:20 |
| napi | collects login details, then collects universe information and dumps it into the database | 10:20 |
| mithro | downloading the universe can take many minutes | 10:20 |
| napi | browser requests something (eg the starmap), web client daemon starts sending the info up | 10:20 |
| napi | aye | 10:21 |
| mithro | and you want to keep the connection open for as long as the user is logged in | 10:21 |
| napi | Can use lots of ajaxy loading bars. First one is collecting universe data, then subsequent ones for whenever it's sending up information to the browser | 10:21 |
| napi | aye | 10:21 |
| napi | when the browser is closed, the disconnection header triggers the client to disconnect from the tpserver-cpp | 10:22 |
| napi | ok. this is starting to make more sense | 10:22 |
| mithro | I see it has kind of a MVC type abstraction | 10:22 |
| mithro | the daemon deals with all the tp stuff | 10:23 |
| mithro | while the "main" web app just shows the data in various pretty ways | 10:23 |
| napi | aye | 10:23 |
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| mithro | anyway I REALLY should be in bed | 10:23 |
| mithro | gnight! | 10:23 |
| napi | definately think combining the daemon and the client would be the right way of doing it | 10:23 |
| napi | ok. am going to re-write my app | 10:23 |
| mithro | (should have been in bed an hour ago) | 10:23 |
| napi | cheers for the help mithro :) | 10:23 |
| napi | night mate | 10:23 |
| Ohm | sleep well | 10:24 |
| * JLP has to go | 10:27 | |
| JLP | see you all in few hours | 10:27 |
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| karol | bye | 10:32 |
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| napi | oooooh | 10:42 |
| napi | BAM! I've got it | 10:42 |
| napi | lighttpd | 10:42 |
| napi | take it, strip it of all the stuff we don't need, add tcp support | 10:42 |
| napi | client is done | 10:42 |
| napi | then just got to do all the scripts for making everything pretty in the browser | 10:43 |
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| bddebian | Heya | 10:49 |
| napi | any one got mithro's email address? | 11:05 |
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| SmokingRope | ls | 11:59 |
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| napi | Whats the "support for creating designs" all about for the web client? | 12:53 |
| napi | designs for what? | 12:53 |
| ezod | look/layout for different rulesets perhaps? | 12:57 |
| napi | righty. leaving for my train in 20 minutes- any questions from mentors about my app before I go? :) | 13:02 |
| napi | (or from any one else in fact... doesn't just have to be mentors) | 13:02 |
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| Ohm | napi: sounds awesome | 13:04 |
| Ohm | the idea in general | 13:04 |
| napi | good enough for me ^^ :p | 13:05 |
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| napi | Right i'm off. have a good weekend all. see you sunday | 13:25 |
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| ezod | does tpserver-cpp not depend on libtpproto-cpp? | 14:56 |
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| jotham | pretty busy | 16:35 |
| jotham | terms of pop | 16:35 |
| Nuleren | it's probably mostly SoC applicants like myself :P | 16:41 |
| jotham | guess so | 16:42 |
| Trollin | Yeah.... | 16:43 |
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| flyankur | can a student apply for 2 diffrent tasks(projects.) | 17:20 |
| * JLP_ is finally back | 17:25 | |
| JLP_ | ahoy all | 17:25 |
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| JLP | flyankur: sure, no limit on the number | 17:26 |
| JLP | flyankur: but ore then 3 is also probably not a good idea since it then often happens that each idea doesn't get enough attention in detail | 17:27 |
| flyankur | but as per given .. some ideas are small enough.. | 17:28 |
| flyankur | so it was like this.. i want ot work on MTsec.. coz when i read sme documentation.. of minisec.. it felt great.. and challenging too.. | 17:29 |
| flyankur | but if i dont get it.. i would rather like to work on the idea " universe in an hour" | 17:30 |
| JLP | flyankur: yeah, you can submit two applications, one for mtsec improvements and one for "quicksec" | 17:30 |
| flyankur | thanx | 17:31 |
| JLP | flyankur: i only warn about too many applications because in most cases the applications from students who turn in more then 3 are too short and lack detail | 17:32 |
| JLP | flyankur: of course it may not be that bad if all the applications are for the same mentoring projects, where then there is only one thing to research for application | 17:32 |
| JLP | but if you apply to 3 different mentoring organizations then you have to research at least 3 projects from 0 | 17:33 |
| flyankur | yeah... thanx.. | 17:52 |
| flyankur | ill keep in mind.. | 17:53 |
| Trollin | Anyone know if a Settlers ruleset has ever been looked at? From a quick loot over, it seems to be right up TPs alley | 17:53 |
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| JLP | Trollin: hm i think settlers has not yet been considered for TP, on a first thought i think it wouldn't even be possible to represent it with current protocol | 18:00 |
| JLP | Trollin: maybe you can find a way to map it in some way to objects/orders available in TP, but I still think it would be a limited subset | 18:01 |
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| jphr | JLP: ping | 18:02 |
| JLP | jphr: pong | 18:02 |
| jphr | JLP: so i got a 2nd draft of my proposals up :D | 18:03 |
| jphr | JLP: should I wait on submitting them until i get more feedbacK? | 18:04 |
| JLP | jphr: in the google webapp? | 18:04 |
| jphr | JLP: eys | 18:04 |
| jphr | yes | 18:04 |
| JLP | jphr: let me check | 18:04 |
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| jphr | JLP: I gotta run and make dinner, I will pop back in shortly | 18:08 |
| JLP | jphr: hm can't see your application in the webapp | 18:10 |
| * JLP checks wiki | 18:12 | |
| JLP | jphr: the comment about the dates in schedule still apply | 18:16 |
| JLP | to both proposals | 18:16 |
| JLP | jphr: potencial risks and problems (with preventive, currative steps) are also not in there | 18:17 |
| JLP | jphr: you should also add information if you will be writing about your progress on your blog or webpage | 18:21 |
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| JLP | jphr: after that i think both proposals can be put into google webapp and we will polish it from there | 18:22 |
| JLP | SmokingRope: i believe you had some questions about the 3d client | 18:23 |
| * JLP fetches himself some pizza | 18:23 | |
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| JLP | mibocote: ahoy | 18:52 |
| mibocote | JLP, hey | 18:52 |
| JLP | mibocote: probably here for google summer of code? | 18:58 |
| Iwanowitch | Urghl. I'd like to check out the RFTS game on demo2, but I can't create an account. Using tpclient-pywx from the Ubuntu packages on your site. | 19:04 |
| Iwanowitch | "Account creation Error - bad username or password" | 19:05 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: it looks like the game currently has 4 players which is the maximum for this ruleset if i remember correctly | 19:05 |
| Iwanowitch | Ah. Okay. | 19:05 |
| Iwanowitch | So, local server than? | 19:06 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: yeah, until the demo2 restarts | 19:06 |
| Iwanowitch | RTFS has no ruleset package? | 19:08 |
| mibocote | JLP, sorry about delay, and, yes, here for gsoc | 19:09 |
| * xdotx stretches | 19:09 | |
| xdotx | morning all | 19:09 |
| xdotx | er, afternoon, evening, etc | 19:09 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: it should be there in the modules if you have checked out from git, it is not yet in the latest released version | 19:09 |
| vi1985 | xdotx: evening ;) | 19:09 |
| JLP | xdotx: ahoy | 19:09 |
| Iwanowitch | Nah, got it in the released versions. Suppose I need to checkout the code. | 19:10 |
| xdotx | heh uh oh. RFTS running on the demo servers? | 19:10 |
| xdotx | it can be config'ed to allow more players. 4's the default | 19:10 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, it probably isn't configed to allow more, and it has 4 :) | 19:10 |
| JLP | mibocote: cool, so have you already picked your favourite idea? | 19:11 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, I get a pretty non-descript error message on trying to create a new player, anyway. | 19:11 |
| xdotx | i think there were limited options for denying a new player | 19:11 |
| mibocote | JLP, not yet, still looking at the project. I just dropped in to get a sense of the community | 19:12 |
| JLP | probably something to make better in the next version of protocol | 19:12 |
| Iwanowitch | Limited... You did reject me :( | 19:12 |
| JLP | mibocote: ok, take your time, feel free to ask if you have any question | 19:12 |
| xdotx | hmm. at the ruleset level all you can say is to allow the new player or not | 19:14 |
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| Iwanowitch | Oh well. I'll try to get it running locally then. | 19:16 |
| vi1985 | howdy nash. I think I spammed you too much today :-P | 19:17 |
| nash | vi1985: It's nothing like our sales team... ;-) | 19:17 |
| vi1985 | nash: are you suggesting my spamming abilities aren't on par with your sales team?! I'm trying my best! lol :))) | 19:19 |
| nash | vi1985: Fortunately not. For starters you aren't CCing me on messages about quotes on toner cartridges | 19:19 |
| vi1985 | hehe :) | 19:20 |
| nash | vi1985: It will be a little while before I answer them btw... probably after lunch local time - it's about 10:30am now... so 3-4 hours I'd say | 19:20 |
| vi1985 | nash: yeah no worries. | 19:21 |
| Iwanowitch | Hmm. Build errors in modules/persistence/mysql. Any easy way to disable building that? | 19:32 |
| Iwanowitch | Or I suppose the problem is with missing headers or something, but I don't really need persistence anyway. | 19:32 |
| Iwanowitch | "mysqlpersistence.cpp:455: error: 'class IGObject' has no member named 'setDirty'" | 19:33 |
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| nash | Iwanowitch: --disable-mysql or similar on the configure line | 19:34 |
| nash | Else if you like in the mail archive for tpdevel I have a hacky patch to force it off | 19:35 |
| * JLP is to sleepy to be able to stay up until 6am again | 19:35 | |
| JLP | good night all, see you in about 8 hours or more | 19:36 |
| nash | Sleep well | 19:36 |
| xdotx | JLP: nightynight :) | 19:36 |
| vi1985 | goodnight | 19:36 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: I only see --with-mysql here, which is not really helpful :) | 19:37 |
| xdotx | heh | 19:38 |
| nash | Make it --without-mysql I think | 19:38 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, that seems to work. Thanks. | 19:39 |
| Iwanowitch | ls | 19:40 |
| Iwanowitch | Erm. | 19:40 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Bonus points if you fix mysql before SoC starts ;-) | 19:40 |
| xdotx | heheh | 19:41 |
| Iwanowitch | Yeah. I doubt that's going to happen. | 19:41 |
| Iwanowitch | I might if my application is accepted (hint) ;) | 19:41 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: If you did you'd massively increase your chances of getting a slot for _any_ application | 19:42 |
| * nash notes that goes for everyone applying ;-) | 19:42 | |
| Iwanowitch | Problem is I don't have time next few weeks, I barely have time to do my applications and I feel like I have to rush them. Don't like it. | 19:43 |
| Iwanowitch | Whoo. Got the game running. Does this affect my chances for getting in? ;) | 19:50 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Yes | 19:50 |
| nash | If people have played the game it's a start. Patches are a big boost too | 19:51 |
| Iwanowitch | Hmm. Are there pictures available for planets? It shows the "downloading media" picture which shouldn't quite take that long for a local game. | 19:52 |
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| Iwanowitch | Wait, it is downloading. | 19:52 |
| Iwanowitch | From where? | 19:52 |
| nash | The main tp server - in theory | 19:52 |
| Iwanowitch | That might explain it, I suppose. Doesn't seem like a smart move if the game gets popular ;) | 19:54 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: a) data is cached (see ~/.tp) | 19:54 |
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| nash | b) It's game specific, so a server can use it's own cache | 19:54 |
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| nash | c) Maybe later we can slide into other hosting services to get data... ;-) | 19:55 |
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| Iwanowitch | Hmm. Trying to insert an order ends the game with a network error. | 19:55 |
| Iwanowitch | File "/var/lib/python-support/python2.5/tp/client/threads.py", line 471, in OnCacheDirty | 19:56 |
| Iwanowitch | raise IOError("Unable to insert the order...") | 19:56 |
| nash | Lovely ;-) | 19:56 |
| nash | That's mithro's bug ;-) | 19:56 |
| Iwanowitch | Damn. No points for finding a bug, either ;) | 19:56 |
| Iwanowitch | Oh well. Patch available or coming? | 19:57 |
| Iwanowitch | I don't know much about Python, so I'm not going to try, sorry. :) | 19:58 |
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| Iwanowitch | I don't think you have other working clients, right? | 20:00 |
| JLafont | try 0.3.0 | 20:00 |
| JLafont | It used to work at least | 20:01 |
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| jphr | mithro: hello | 20:24 |
| nash | mithro: Iwanowitch had some problems inserting orders | 20:27 |
| mithro | wow, more new people | 20:27 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: I'm happy to see if I can help | 20:27 |
| Iwanowitch | 0.3.0 works though | 20:27 |
| Iwanowitch | 0.3.1 shows the message "Unable to insert the order..." | 20:28 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: okay, can you tell me the following | 20:28 |
| mithro | 1. Which OS you are using | 20:28 |
| mithro | 2. Which server you are connecting to | 20:28 |
| mithro | 3. Who you are login in to | 20:29 |
| mithro | 4. A reproducable way to cause the error | 20:29 |
| Iwanowitch | 1. Linux, Kubuntu 7.10 | 20:29 |
| mithro | 5. Send me the tpclient-pywx.log found in your home directory (or Document-Settings on windows) | 20:29 |
| Iwanowitch | 2. locally running, with RTFS ruleset | 20:29 |
| Iwanowitch | (tpserver-cpp) | 20:29 |
| Iwanowitch | (because I couldn't create an account on the demo server) | 20:30 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: you mean a local tpserver-cpp? | 20:31 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: Yes. | 20:31 |
| mithro | okay | 20:31 |
| Iwanowitch | Fresh from git. | 20:31 |
| mithro | I bet I know what the problem is | 20:31 |
| mithro | hopefully 0.3.2 will make "Unable to insert an order" a non-fatal operation | 20:32 |
| jphr | mithro: btw, wanted to ask you, JLP mentioned that my project roadmap should include specific dates, is a roadmap of "week" time scale not exact enough? | 20:33 |
| Iwanowitch | So I'm not sure 3 is applicable. If you want, I can try to get the logfile again. | 20:33 |
| mithro | jphr: dates are easier to visualise | 20:33 |
| jphr | mithro: ok i'll change them then | 20:33 |
| mithro | brb bday cake | 20:33 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: Hmm, seems to work now, so I'm not sure about a reproducable way to make it happen. I'll try to experiment a bit. | 20:35 |
| Iwanowitch | Erm. I got a message about my fleet being moved but it's still at its old position on the map and on the object list. What gives? | 20:38 |
| Iwanowitch | Is "fix the damn bugs in tpclient-pywx" a viable project idea? ;) | 20:41 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: if only ;-) | 20:43 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: yes - but that bug is in tpserver-cpp :) | 20:47 |
| Iwanowitch | Something about the parents? | 20:48 |
| mithro | yeah, RFTS doesn't seem to reparent the universe properly | 20:48 |
| mithro | well - it's probably that it doesn't update the modtime correctly | 20:48 |
| Iwanowitch | I can't seem to give commands to my planet anymore, either. | 20:49 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: the orders you can give to a planet depend on which turn it is | 20:49 |
| * mithro pokes xdotx | 20:49 | |
| JLafont | Its every other turn on RFTS | 20:50 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, I can't give an order for about 5 turns in a row now :) | 20:50 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: that is because RFTS isn't updating the mod time again | 20:50 |
| mithro | (so it doesn't know to download the object with the different allowable orders) | 20:50 |
| xdotx | ah ha | 20:50 |
| * xdotx looks in to that | 20:50 | |
| Iwanowitch | xdotx: Come on, fix your ruleset already ;) | 20:51 |
| greywhind | mithro: did you have time to look at my IdleFinder code clean-up patch yet? | 20:51 |
| mithro | greywhind: no | 20:51 |
| greywhind | mithro: when you do, i'd like to know whether it looks better, and whether there are more style changes you'd like me to make | 20:52 |
| mithro | this will of course come back to bite me as he is going to turn up some tpclient-pywx bugs eventually | 20:52 |
| xdotx | TP's greatest weakness: who to blame when something goes wrong ;P | 20:52 |
| Iwanowitch | xdotx: actually, how mature is RTFS? I'd like to take the write-an-AI project for RTFS, but that would be a bit hard if it keeps acting like this, I'm sure you understand... | 20:52 |
| Iwanowitch | Or rather, how mature will it be by the start of the SoC? :) | 20:53 |
| nash | xdotx: No, the greatest weakness is there is only one person who looks at each piece of code | 20:53 |
| Iwanowitch | Then again, we could work together on getting the bugs out, too. | 20:53 |
| xdotx | Iwanowitch: it's the least mature. but ideally by the time you're ready to work with it it'll be doing nice | 20:53 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: I think you will find that an AI will drive the stablity up quickly | 20:53 |
| xdotx | and yes, i plan on working together with anyone doing an RFTS-related project | 20:53 |
| Iwanowitch | Okay. More challenges. I like it. | 20:54 |
| mithro | greywhind: yeah, that patch looks good | 20:54 |
| nash | Absolutely - AIs greatest feature is lots of testing ;-) | 20:54 |
| * xdotx nods | 20:54 | |
| mithro | tpsai-py found like 30 bugs in the minisec ruleset | 20:55 |
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| Iwanowitch | The client stealing focus on update isn't too nice, either. And I'm pretty sure it's the client's code now :) | 20:55 |
| greywhind | mithro: anything else in IdleFinder that's not good style-wise? (feel free to answer this later, if you don't have time at the moment) | 20:55 |
| mithro | greywhind: still quite a bit you could clean up | 20:55 |
| mithro | greywhind: each method should have a comment like that found in the Config stuff | 20:56 |
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| greywhind | mithro: ah. wasn't sure where to find example comments, but now that I know, I'll add them. | 20:57 |
| mithro | greywhind: I have to admit it's a little bit of a "do as I say not do as I do" :) | 20:58 |
| mithro | greywhind: libtpproto-py has pretty good method comments | 20:58 |
| greywhind | mithro: ok. i'll check those two places for examples. | 20:58 |
| mithro | hello protohack, is this your first time here? | 20:58 |
| mithro | greywhind: and if you find things which are hard to understand - please do get on my case about them | 20:59 |
| protohack | yes it is | 20:59 |
| mithro | protohack: you interested in GSoC? | 20:59 |
| protohack | I wasn't sure what y'all were talking about so I couldn't chime in | 20:59 |
| protohack | yes, very much so | 21:00 |
| protohack | I was actually the one who sent you the email from my lsu.edu account earlier today | 21:00 |
| mithro | Kevin Cherry? | 21:02 |
| protohack | yup | 21:02 |
| mithro | ahh cool | 21:02 |
| protohack | I have to admit I've never been on irc, but I have heard a lot about it. Seems pretty cool so far. | 21:03 |
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| protohack | Seems kind of like the old chat room stuff | 21:03 |
| nash | protohack: irc is _the_ old chat room stuff | 21:04 |
| protohack | Way back when I used to use AOL, I use to be in chat rooms all the time. Thank God though I don't have AOL anymore lol | 21:04 |
| protohack | ah | 21:04 |
| bddebian | Hey folks | 21:04 |
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| nash | heyo | 21:04 |
| protohack | How's it going? | 21:05 |
| bddebian | Beauty thanks, you? | 21:05 |
| protohack | So are most of the people here developers for Thousand Parsec?....oh and I'm great. | 21:05 |
| nash | protohack: Or potential ones ;-) | 21:06 |
| protohack | indeed | 21:06 |
| protohack | I personally would love to be part of the team | 21:06 |
| llnz | cool | 21:06 |
| protohack | I love C++ (and a lot of other languages too) and love making games. | 21:07 |
| protohack | Oh, which reminds me... | 21:07 |
| mithro | hey bddebian | 21:08 |
| mithro | bddebian: did you end up getting a tpclient-pywx package built? | 21:08 |
| bddebian | Heya mithro. Yes, should be netlib, clientlib, and tpclient-pywx for all three distros | 21:08 |
| nash | protohack: Fix a bug, add a feature and you can be it... it's fairly simple to get on board ;-) | 21:09 |
| mithro | bddebian: you rock! | 21:09 |
| protohack | Have y'all seen this commercial on t.v. where they have these two guys sitting back with game controllers and talking about how much they like programming games?...They are actually lying back relaxed and acting like it is easy to make games. Game development can be very difficult and I personally feel commercials like that demean the job of a game developer | 21:09 |
| nash | protohack: There is still lots to do in tpserver-cpp ;-) | 21:09 |
| nash | protohack: Most people have no idea what programming is about... it's not just game development ;-) | 21:09 |
| protohack | I definitely know that - that most people don't know what programming is about | 21:10 |
| xdotx | protohack: the sooner you quit watching tv the better imo ;) | 21:10 |
| protohack | lol, fair enough | 21:10 |
| protohack | so about the tpserver-cpp...where can I get information on what needs to be done. | 21:11 |
| andrei | Being a game developer is signing yourself up for a life of poor wages and horribly long hours; I wonder why anyone would do it? | 21:11 |
| JLafont | I'm going to go tweak some graphics brb | 21:11 |
| xdotx | i'm sure they try to blow up "game programming" like it's the coolest shit on the block. | 21:11 |
| jotham | andrei: because it's currently the rockstar industry of software development | 21:11 |
| andrei | I think it's one of the few jobs that works you more and pays less than doing a PhD (per hour anyway) | 21:11 |
| xdotx | andrei: we get great wages really ;) | 21:11 |
| andrei | xdotx, Heh, none of the game developers that i know make much per hour. | 21:11 |
| nash | protohack: The bug list, FIXME or other obvious problems in the code, any developer, the roadmap... | 21:12 |
| jotham | did you guys read the article written by the owner of Stardock about game industry and commerce? | 21:12 |
| jotham | it was very good | 21:12 |
| protohack | No, have to Google that | 21:12 |
| xdotx | anybody in the industry is here because they -want- to make games. the pay is just what makes it possible | 21:12 |
| nash | protohack: ask llnz... just fix persistence ;-) | 21:12 |
| jotham | if you want to make money in technology, tech service/admins make the most | 21:12 |
| protohack | I agree with xdotx on that last comment | 21:12 |
| jotham | and get the best perks | 21:12 |
| JLafont | mithro, I sent the pyogre proposal to the list, any feed back would be great | 21:12 |
| andrei | jotham, I think it's a bit sad. There are much cooler jobs that help society more than writing games :P | 21:12 |
| JLafont | mithro, when you have time | 21:12 |
| bddebian | I'd be a game developer if I wasn't a frickin' idiot :( | 21:13 |
| jotham | andrei you find what a bit sad? | 21:13 |
| andrei | jotham, That people are so obsessed with getting into the games industry | 21:13 |
| xdotx | andrei: i don't know anyone on an hourly wage. are they designers? | 21:13 |
| jotham | i don't know anything about that andrei | 21:13 |
| Iwanowitch | Yeah, fix persistence.. Or make it *build* | 21:13 |
| andrei | jotham, Oh.. around good universities it seems most people are obsessed with games | 21:13 |
| protohack | Well, actually andrei, I personally feel that games help people's mental health. They give them an oppurtunity to let loose and relax. | 21:13 |
| greywhind | protohack: agreed | 21:14 |
| protohack | So I think it does help society | 21:14 |
| jotham | andrei: you should read the article i mentioned, i'll find a URL to it | 21:14 |
| ezod | andrei: if helping society had anything to do with it, scientists would have $12M contracts and nba players would be applying for financial assistance :P | 21:14 |
| andrei | xdotx, Well, you get paid per month but end up working a lot more due to overtime. So per hour it's not all that good :P | 21:14 |
| andrei | ezod, It's what I'm waiting for :P | 21:14 |
| andrei | ezod, Please write the NSF and DARPA | 21:14 |
| andrei | ezod, :) | 21:14 |
| xdotx | andrei: well, i suppose if you consider all that time "work" | 21:14 |
| andrei | protohack, I think a lot of people waste a lot of time playing games. (perhaps this is a poor argument to make on #tp). But spending 3-4 hours a day doing that seems like a waste | 21:15 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: I can get it to build... just comment out a dozen lines ;-) | 21:15 |
| andrei | jotham, Heh, sure :) | 21:16 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: Well, yeah, but a more constructive way might be better ;) | 21:16 |
| mithro | JLafont: please keep poking me | 21:16 |
| mithro | hey jotham | 21:16 |
| JLafont | mithro, will do | 21:16 |
| xdotx | personally, i quit playing games when i started making them. no time for that non-sense ;P | 21:16 |
| Iwanowitch | Erm, can someone (mithro?) tell me the difference between libtpclient-py and libtpproto-py? | 21:16 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: The smaller the code base the better ;-) | 21:16 |
| protohack | andrei - then again, relaxation can still be important. I agree that if people play games too much, they can become quite unproductive. However, wanting to get away from stress every once and awhile is a good thing | 21:17 |
| jotham | here is the Stardock owners article about games and piracy http://forums.galciv2.com/303512 | 21:17 |
| tpb | Title: Piracy & PC Gaming » Forum Post by Draginol (at forums.galciv2.com) | 21:17 |
| andrei | xdotx, Heh. I play an evening or two every few months usually. I much prefer hacking on code to playing :) | 21:17 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: have you seen my 0-byte game? Runs smooth on every architecture! | 21:17 |
| andrei | protohack, Agreed, I am unsure if this truly does reduce stress though | 21:17 |
| andrei | protohack, People get extremely worked up over games | 21:17 |
| llnz | Iwanowitch: libtpclient-py is the client interface which uses libtpproto-py for the protocol implementation | 21:17 |
| andrei | protohack, I know a handful of people that dropped out of university due to WoW :P | 21:18 |
| protohack | xdotx - yeah same here. I make them more than I play them. But then again, it is important to still play games for inspiration in your own games and to know what people like | 21:18 |
| xdotx | heh. i suppose i play a couple times a month. it's not really possible to give up smash bro.s in this apt. | 21:18 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Yeah, but can you get the linker to accept it? | 21:18 |
| Iwanowitch | llnz: So, you could build any Python client on top of libtpclient-py instead of "raw" libtpproto? | 21:18 |
| protohack | well, WoW is another thing. That game is evil IMO. I have never played it and never will as I have heard similar stories | 21:18 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: libtpclient-py includes features like threading stuff and caching stuff | 21:18 |
| llnz | yes | 21:18 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: Wasn't there someone in the obfuscated c contest that did that? Besides, I distribute binaries ;) | 21:19 |
| jotham | i distribute ascii art | 21:19 |
| jotham | (.)(.) | 21:19 |
| xdotx | lawl | 21:19 |
| protohack | xdotx - indeed, I love smash bros | 21:20 |
| ezod | mithro: while we're on this topic, re: your comment about my proposal applying to tpserver-py as well... until i looked at it i was under the impression they both relied on a libtpproto-*... apparently that's not the case? | 21:20 |
| mithro | ezod: tpserver-py depends on libtpproto-py | 21:20 |
| ezod | mithro: yes, but why doesn't tpserver-cpp similarly depend on libtpproto-cpp? | 21:21 |
| mithro | ezod: libtpproto-py supports both servers and clients | 21:21 |
| mithro | ezod: ask llnz :) | 21:21 |
| ezod | heh, k, brb | 21:21 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Exactly... it's a class IOCCC entry - it caused a rule change ;-) | 21:21 |
| llnz | ezod: because libtpproto-cpp is client side only, include similar game layer to libtpclient-py | 21:22 |
| protohack | I'll brb | 21:22 |
| mithro | ezod: libtpproto-cpp came after tpserver-cpp i'm pretty sure | 21:22 |
| SmokingRope | mithro: do you have any war stories from developing the python client? | 21:22 |
| llnz | yes | 21:22 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: yes :) | 21:22 |
| nash | smallest self replicating program: touch selfrep ; ./selfrep > ./selfrep2 ; diff -q selfrep selfrep2 | 21:22 |
| nash | diff: Files are the same | 21:22 |
| mithro | wxPython is both the devil and really cool | 21:23 |
| * SmokingRope waits emphatically for mithro to begin | 21:23 | |
| mithro | SmokingRope: please don't get me started ;) | 21:23 |
| SmokingRope | mithro: i was hoping to address some of it in the next revision of my proposal | 21:24 |
| mithro | JLafont: a good start | 21:24 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: gotta love pathetic examples :) | 21:24 |
| mithro | JLafont: I think you need to expand the milestone section | 21:25 |
| mithro | JLafont: some "mock-up screenshots" of the UI would be a good addition | 21:25 |
| JLafont | mithro, thanks I had a couple more ideas and by the time I got back home I forgot them. | 21:25 |
| mithro | JLafont: proof that you have looked into the python libraries also good | 21:25 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Bah - it was great - it showed up how pointless the whole self rep thing is... | 21:25 |
| JLafont | mithro, thanks will do. | 21:25 |
| mithro | JLafont: IE Fixing up tpclient-pytext would be a good starting project (maybe this weekend if you have time :) | 21:26 |
| JLafont | kk | 21:26 |
| JLafont | I should have some free time this weekend | 21:26 |
| andrei | JLafont, Ah.. free time.. | 21:27 |
| mithro | JLafont: you need to also mention stuff about how you will deal with 3d artwork | 21:27 |
| andrei | JLafont, I remember that | 21:27 |
| mithro | (IE the fact we don't have a lot) | 21:27 |
| mithro | what about themeing the UI? | 21:27 |
| mithro | JLafont: btw I'm just throwing ideas out there | 21:27 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: See http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/hq9plus.html | 21:27 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1juN> (at www.cliff.biffle.org) | 21:27 |
| JLafont | mithro, yeah I know, I was thinking about themes and skinning, but I'd rather have a working | 21:28 |
| JLafont | UI before I work on it | 21:28 |
| mithro | JLafont: so would I | 21:28 |
| mithro | showing that you have thought about things like that is good | 21:28 |
| mithro | JLafont: what level of hardware will you be targeting? | 21:29 |
| JLafont | mithro, low-to-mid end computers | 21:29 |
| mithro | I think the timeline and milestones could be combind into a single section | 21:29 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: Yeah, I know about that one. It lacks an elegant implementation of quicksort though ;) | 21:29 |
| mithro | (ordered by time) | 21:30 |
| Iwanowitch | Apart from that, it does all important things a beginning programmer could wich for. | 21:30 |
| Iwanowitch | *wish | 21:30 |
| mithro | JLafont: assume that we have forgotten everything which we talked about on IRC :) | 21:30 |
| JLafont | JLafont, haha ok, I'll be sure to think that way | 21:31 |
| nash | Ahh.. http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/hq9plusplus.html solves part of the problem | 21:31 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1juP> (at www.dangermouse.net) | 21:31 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: how about that? | 21:31 |
| protohack | back | 21:31 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: haha, grand. A blazing fast pure object oriented language. | 21:34 |
| Iwanowitch | We should port TP to it. | 21:34 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: 'T' is unused | 21:35 |
| Iwanowitch | THQ9++ | 21:35 |
| Iwanowitch | Sounds good. | 21:35 |
| protohack | Does anyone know why C++ is used for making games instead of Java. I am a fan of both so it doesn't matter to me but was just wondering. | 21:38 |
| Iwanowitch | History. | 21:38 |
| JLafont | C++ is faster | 21:39 |
| nash | C++ is more portable & faster | 21:39 |
| Iwanowitch | Java is on the rise though. | 21:39 |
| nash | Older mature tools and libraries | 21:39 |
| nash | Java versions come out fairly quickly | 21:39 |
| mithro | plus it's java! :P | 21:39 |
| nash | C++, once a decade... maybe | 21:39 |
| mithro | JLafont: any thing else you would like me to comment on? | 21:39 |
| nash | and they aren't radical rewrites each time | 21:39 |
| JLafont | mithro, not right now. Thanks! Lemme fix and work on what you told me and I'll get back to you | 21:40 |
| mithro | Games are all about a few gun programmers, java is all about making crappy programmers slightly less crappy (while at the same time making gun programmers suck) | 21:40 |
| xdotx | llnz: any idea why star systems and the universe don't show an update mod time, even though touchModTime() was -definitely- called? | 21:40 |
| mithro | woot! 32 | 21:41 |
| llnz | xdotx: i think i know | 21:41 |
| * mithro pokes JLP - is that the new record? | 21:41 | |
| xdotx | llnz: i'm suspicious of object view, but that's just because i haven't worked with it at all | 21:41 |
| SmokingRope | ~ maxusers ? | 21:42 |
| protohack | llnz - I started what I think to be a personal chat with you a little while ago. I just want to make sure you got my messages? | 21:42 |
| llnz | xdotx: yes, the objectview must be be updated | 21:42 |
| llnz | protohack: nope | 21:43 |
| Iwanowitch | protohack: Freenode is a bit backwards for private messages. | 21:43 |
| nash | protohack: You need to registred I believe | 21:43 |
| protohack | llnz - ah, glad I asked then | 21:43 |
| nash | protohack: And it doesn't bother to mention this when it drops your messages | 21:44 |
| xdotx | llnz: ah. i see what's up. i think i can fix this | 21:44 |
| protohack | I was just wondering if you could email me any information on persistence in tpserver-cpp so I could look into it. My email is [email protected] | 21:44 |
| llnz | protohack: have a look at the persistence.h and the persistence module in tpserver-cpp git | 21:45 |
| protohack | ah ok | 21:45 |
| protohack | I will look into that when I get off work tomorrow | 21:47 |
| xdotx | llnz: it'd be nice to pass a bool to getObjectView() to specify to make one for that ID if it doesn't exist | 21:47 |
| llnz | xdotx: i would rather not, make it hard to do the wrong thing | 21:48 |
| xdotx | llnz: even with a default arg? | 21:49 |
| llnz | maybe... i'll have to think about it | 21:50 |
| xdotx | kk | 21:50 |
| llnz | is it really needed? | 21:50 |
| xdotx | llnz: it looks like it's always used that way, and i hate code repeat | 21:51 |
| xdotx | easy to mess up | 21:51 |
| llnz | ok | 21:52 |
| protohack | Actually, I think I will go ahead and look at that persistence.h file some tonight and see what I can do. I'm bout to go for now but I will be back on here tomorrow with any news on my progress | 21:52 |
| protohack | see y'all later | 21:52 |
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| Iwanowitch | I've written the abstract of my proposal. That should be enough for today. | 22:00 |
| Iwanowitch | Goodnight everyone who is in roughly the same timezone as me. | 22:01 |
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| mithro | http://www.thousandparsec.net/~irc/stats/ | 22:13 |
| tpb | Title: Index of /~irc/stats (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 22:13 |
| greywhind_ | yay! 6th! :) | 22:19 |
| nash | How the hell did I get to #2 | 22:28 |
| greywhind_ | nash: you talked? | 22:29 |
| jotham | nash is always running his mouth off | 22:29 |
| nash | self seems to be unliked too. He/She got beaten 2 times. | 22:29 |
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| andrei | I'm 4th for the week? How'd that happen.. | 22:46 |
| andrei | mithro, I updated the timeline for my application | 22:52 |
| andrei | JLP, mithro, Mind taking a look when you get the chance? | 22:53 |
| mithro | andrei: probably won't be until after lunch | 22:53 |
| andrei | mithro, Thanks :) there's no rush | 22:53 |
| andrei | By the way, anyone can see it at: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~abarbu/soc/thousand-parsec | 22:53 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1iXj> (at csclub.uwaterloo.ca) | 22:53 |
| andrei | I should put a link in the wiki to it.. | 22:53 |
| SmokingRope | i put a copy of my abstract in the full proposal | 22:54 |
| mithro | andrei: if you had used a wiki we could better see how much work you have done :) | 22:54 |
| mithro | andrei: can you add dates to your weeks? | 22:55 |
| andrei | mithro, That's true. I just haven't had time to transition all my stuff from my old unviersity account to the new setup I use :) | 22:55 |
| mithro | going to lunch | 22:55 |
| mithro | bblr | 22:55 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Yeah, I did the same | 22:56 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: i didn't see it | 22:56 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: is that the rationale? | 22:56 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, The description is the abstract :) | 22:56 |
| SmokingRope | ah | 22:56 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Doesn't read like one? | 22:57 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: http://easlnx01.eas.muohio.edu/~hannasm/TPProposal/ | 22:57 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jvd> (at easlnx01.eas.muohio.edu) | 22:57 |
| SmokingRope | i didn't read it, i was just browsing through the headings | 22:57 |
| SmokingRope | i'll read it though | 22:57 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Heh, thanks :) the more eyes the better | 22:59 |
| SmokingRope | in the rationale paragraph, second sentence, They would also allow for for | 22:59 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Heh, thanks :) | 23:00 |
| andrei | (I may have said that a few times, I feel like a bot now) | 23:00 |
| andrei | Tell me if it makes sense as well. I went through quite a few iterations to get it from AI-stuff to the level where it should make sense to everyone | 23:01 |
| andrei | Which is how that for for got in there most likely | 23:01 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, One note. The orange is really hard to read :) (I suggest something like dark blue) | 23:02 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Nice, spatial partitioning is a really cool problem (I used to write realtime raytracers for fun; you get to try out a whole lot of different partitioning algorithms for that :P) | 23:03 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: i'm actually writing the whole thing using policy based design | 23:04 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: if it works out, i may make it open source | 23:04 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: this way i can easily switch the grid bsp buidler with one that does an octree, or plane selection based on the geometries faces without extra effort | 23:05 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Heh, yeah.. then you get to do hybrid approaches, because none actually work well in the general case :) | 23:06 |
| SmokingRope | This area | 23:11 |
| SmokingRope | route is perfectly safe if I can't be attacked till I reach my base | 23:11 |
| andrei | Thanks :) | 23:11 |
| SmokingRope | your abstract talks about making the AI into a library at some point however isn't really supported in the remainder of the proposal | 23:16 |
| andrei | I'll make that clearer. The AI would always be a library, never coupled to a parsec client. I just meant spin off as in, have its own project after SoC | 23:18 |
| SmokingRope | it does seem to be really relevant to the proposal, but you might want to add some supporting statements in the remainder if you want to keep it | 23:18 |
| andrei | Thanks :) | 23:18 |
| SmokingRope | *does = doesn't | 23:18 |
| SmokingRope | i also am left wondering after reading the paper what type of interface your AI client will have | 23:19 |
| andrei | I've yet to decide that :P I thought of outlining one.. but I'm not exactly certain what API I want yet | 23:20 |
| SmokingRope | i got the impression you are just going to have a console app that uses the game library, but it wasn't really covered | 23:20 |
| andrei | oh, you mean, the TP client? | 23:20 |
| andrei | Yeah, no GUI :P | 23:20 |
| SmokingRope | yes | 23:20 |
| SmokingRope | the user interface | 23:20 |
| andrei | I thought you meant API to the library :P | 23:21 |
| andrei | I don't want there to be a GUI for the AI intentionally | 23:21 |
| andrei | That means people have to fiddle with it | 23:21 |
| SmokingRope | the abstract made it sound like you were going to leverage the wxpython client or something | 23:21 |
| andrei | Ah, no. Just swig bindings to the C++ protocol libraries | 23:21 |
| SmokingRope | 'bound to a thousand parsec client' | 23:22 |
| andrei | In the sense of, I'll write a client to do it. | 23:22 |
| andrei | But it'll be a really minimalist client (aside from having a prompt it'll be nothing but marshalling frames to and from the AI library) | 23:22 |
| SmokingRope | maybe 'as a standalone parsec client' would make that clearer to me | 23:22 |
| SmokingRope | it would be cool to have the AI write out it's logic and decisions to the console | 23:23 |
| mithro | back | 23:23 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Yup, that's definitely a feature I'm intersted in | 23:24 |
| SmokingRope | you could then watch in horror as 10 battleships are directed towards your home planet | 23:24 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, My research area involves learning :) so I plan to try that out in the AI and see if I can get it to learn new strategies | 23:24 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, After SoC that is | 23:24 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Heh, yeah. And by printing out the traces it would be able to learn from its own mistakes :P | 23:25 |
| andrei | mithro, Welcome back | 23:25 |
| andrei | mithro, I added the dates :) | 23:25 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: lol, another thing i was wondering was whether it was going to do all the inferencing in real-time | 23:26 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Yup :) | 23:26 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Because it's fast :) | 23:26 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: i read somewhere recently (AI typically only gets about 8% of CPU time in video games) | 23:27 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, That's still fine | 23:27 |
| SmokingRope | mithro: WB | 23:27 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, TP does not use much in the way of CPU anyway (and this does not have to be CPU intensive at all) | 23:27 |
| SmokingRope | you could always run the AI on a seperate machine too | 23:28 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: you have 10 minutes per turn! :) | 23:28 |
| SmokingRope | lol | 23:28 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: will your AI support clustering? | 23:29 |
| mithro | although when you have 10,000 fleets that could start causing a problem :) | 23:29 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, In the proposal. No. The idea is to build a general platform for rule-independet AIs so that things like clustering can be built on top of it | 23:29 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, So there's no reason why it couldn't be done. I just have no time to look into things like that over SoC :) | 23:29 |
| SmokingRope | andrei: :) | 23:30 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, (well, if I'm really optimisic I'd say I do, but it would be insane to promise that :P) | 23:30 |
| SmokingRope | your abstract got me thinking that i also could use certain information about units in a 3d client | 23:32 |
| andrei | Heh, yup. And if you had this AI you could ask it questions in a high level manner :) | 23:33 |
| SmokingRope | if the movement speed of a ship is available, i could always calculate how long the server is going to need to move it to the destination and make the ship movement seamless | 23:33 |
| mithro | I have found that adding better support for AI's have made the other clients better | 23:33 |
| SmokingRope | same thing with build orders | 23:33 |
| andrei | You could do even cooler things like. If a planet is threatened highlight it. Or if a trade route is :) | 23:34 |
| andrei | (if we had trade routes that is :P) | 23:34 |
| SmokingRope | does tp plan to support wormholes or fixed travel routes? | 23:34 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: for sure! | 23:34 |
| SmokingRope | ascendancy has explicit paths between solar systems, and wormholes to teleport | 23:34 |
| SmokingRope | then you draw lines from the different systems and you can rotate it in 3d | 23:35 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: nobody has quite figure out the best way to deal with that yet | 23:35 |
| SmokingRope | looked really cool | 23:35 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, One really cool thing to do after SoC is to modify the client to offload parts of the empire management to the AI :) | 23:35 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, That would make the game a lot more interesting | 23:35 |
| mithro | andrei: unlike some projects we are *very* happy to do that | 23:36 |
| mithro | (some game projects see assitive AI as cheating) | 23:36 |
| andrei | You could play a large TP game by giving commands like "Attack this planet" and have the AI build up, attack, and take it over :) | 23:36 |
| SmokingRope | i noticed that the python client says everything has no z component in their coordinates | 23:37 |
| andrei | mithro, Heh, I find that's because their AIs tend to be all or nothing | 23:37 |
| andrei | mithro, Either it's so good it's way better than the player, or it's so bad it's not worth it | 23:37 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: tpserver-cpp just sets the Z to zero when generating | 23:37 |
| SmokingRope | ah | 23:37 |
| mithro | I believe you can actually move in the Z direction | 23:37 |
| andrei | mithro, This AI would be really easy to scale (or look a few more ply ahead, or enable/disable some modules) in terms of difficulty. So you could easily make it adapt to the playing quality of the user | 23:38 |
| andrei | So if the user is better, the AI should be better :) | 23:38 |
| mithro | andrei: I'm still very skeptical about your AI ;) | 23:38 |
| andrei | mithro, Why? | 23:38 |
| mithro | andrei: but skeptical as in "I want to see if he can pull this off" | 23:39 |
| andrei | mithro, Ah, ok. Not skeptical as in "He's insane" :P | 23:39 |
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| andrei | mithro, That's good. I'm sure I can. AIs work like this for chess (which is as complicated as TP) | 23:39 |
| mithro | andrei: well a little bit of "He's insane" but you have enough hutzspar to sound like you might just be able to | 23:40 |
| andrei | mithro, (because you have to be insanely good at chess to be remotely close to what an average human can do) | 23:40 |
| andrei | mithro, Heh, well. I don't like sleep and this is my area of research. Those two should go well together :P | 23:41 |
| mithro | andrei: there was a cool paper about giving humans the ability to actually perform "real though experiments" in chess using assisted AI | 23:41 |
| andrei | mithro, real thought experiments? | 23:42 |
| mithro | significantly raised the ability of players | 23:42 |
| andrei | Ah | 23:42 |
| andrei | mithro, You should check out advanced chess :) | 23:42 |
| mithro | andrei: "If I put this peice here, what could possible occur next" | 23:42 |
| andrei | mithro, It's something Kasparov suggested a while ago | 23:42 |
| andrei | mithro, Yeah, that's exactly it. You play cooperativly with a computer | 23:43 |
| andrei | mithro, There's an organization and everything for it | 23:43 |
| andrei | mithro, (I used to play a lot of chess before I got into math and cs) | 23:43 |
| mithro | I see it as using the computer as your "memory" effectively | 23:43 |
| mithro | it makes you less likely to make a "stupid" move just because you didn't see something | 23:44 |
| andrei | Heh, yup. But the advantage it would give a grandmaster is doubtful | 23:44 |
| mithro | I think you would get a different type of grandmaster | 23:44 |
| andrei | Heh, I agree. I think it would make the game a lot more interesting | 23:45 |
| mithro | it would make the game more about high level stratergy | 23:45 |
| SmokingRope | has anyone proven there isn't just one optimal solution to winning chess? | 23:46 |
| vi1985 | SmokingRope: they have only recently "solved" checkers... chess is way more complicated :) | 23:47 |
| mithro | SmokingRope: you mean like tic-tack-toe | 23:47 |
| andrei | Well, it's all about positional play + strategy. But computer would help by providing some extra insight | 23:47 |
| SmokingRope | i'm just saying a simple proof that there can or cannot be a 'always win' solution, for chess | 23:47 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Nopes, otherwise there would be no more chess tournaments :P | 23:47 |
| SmokingRope | no more chess tournaments? :) | 23:48 |
| mithro | lots of AI people into Go | 23:48 |
| andrei | SmokingRope, Well.. if tere was a surefire way to win it would be pointless :) | 23:48 |
| andrei | mithro, Yeah.. that's because it's so insanely complicated | 23:48 |
| mithro | as it's both simpler and more complicated then chess at the same time | 23:49 |
| andrei | mithro, And even beginner go players and just destroy the computer | 23:49 |
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| mithro | hello BZA_ | 23:49 |
| andrei | mithro, And the handicap system in go is incredibly cool and works extremly well :) | 23:49 |
| vi1985 | andrei: an intermediate level chess player is surely way more adept than a computer at "seeing" the game... chess AI would simply have more calculation ability | 23:49 |
| BZA_ | mithro: hey hey | 23:49 |
| mithro | vi1985: depends on your memory | 23:50 |
| andrei | vi1985, Not at all. It turns out looking a few extra ply ahead often doesn't help much | 23:50 |
| andrei | vi1985, Most modern chess is positional | 23:50 |
| Landon | andrei: aw :( I guess I probably couldnt pass a Go Turing test then | 23:50 |
| mithro | vi1985: my chess playing style was very weird as I have a shocking memory | 23:50 |
| andrei | vi1985, As in, good players don't look many moves ahead. If you ask grandmasters how far ahead they look they'll say 1 move | 23:50 |
| BZA_ | mithro: The first draft of my GSoc Proposal is up at http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/BZA_Proposal please take a look if you get a chance, I would love any feedback from you or anyone else in the community | 23:51 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/1jwR> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 23:51 |
| * mithro can't fit the complete chess board in his "working memory" | 23:51 | |
| andrei | mithro, Ah, that tends to be a chunking issue. As in, you have 7 spots of working memory. Your brain helps by making little templates and grouping information | 23:51 |
| andrei | mithro, So the more chess you read/play that memory should expand :) | 23:52 |
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| vi1985 | andrei: lol 1 move, I'd like to hear that! I studied some chess theory myself, and it's hard to even begin to imagine giving the computer the ability to "see". sure, there are approximations and heuristics, and hard-coded pre-rated positions, but it's not the same | 23:52 |
| andrei | mithro, You also lose that ability if you don't use it (well I do) I used to be able to play most of a game from reading it, now I have to stop and draw the game out every 8-9 moves (it gets better when I play more chess) | 23:53 |
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| andrei | vi1985, Well.. what do you mean by see? If those algorithms make it play chess well, and pull of amazing combinations; who is to say that's not seeing? :P | 23:54 |
| mithro | I also tended to be fairly reckless :) | 23:54 |
| mithro | which scared the fsck out of other moderate players but got me clobbered badly sometimes | 23:54 |
| andrei | vi1985, Chess computers play some amazingly deep moves, that often surprise grandmasters | 23:55 |
| andrei | mithro, Heh, being reckless can be fun. People often forget and trade position for pieces :P | 23:55 |
| mithro | computers have the advantage that they can be unbiased and unemotional | 23:55 |
| vi1985 | andrei: if you analyze the kasparov-Deep Blue matches, you'll see that the AI proceded by playing closed-posinion, conservative games. Humans use different tools. Not to say these tools cannot be immitated, but I'd like to see a chess engine that plays like Tal! | 23:56 |
| andrei | mithro, TYeah, that really screwed Kasparov | 23:56 |
| andrei | vi1985, Have you read Kasparov's comments about how Deep Blue played? | 23:56 |
| mithro | which can make them VERY good at poker | 23:56 |
| Landon | mithro: haha | 23:56 |
| vi1985 | andrei: no, I haven't. I just looked at the few final games, and their analyses | 23:57 |
| andrei | vi1985, After the first or second game they rebooted it. After that Kasparov said it played like a human, before it played like a machine | 23:57 |
| vi1985 | andrei: are they online? | 23:57 |
| andrei | vi1985, I'll see if I can find them again | 23:57 |
| mithro | BZA_: you really need some "You will be able to do X" | 23:57 |
| vi1985 | andrei: thanks! I'd like to see that. | 23:58 |
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| mithro | these should be seperate bullet points | 23:58 |
| andrei | vi1985, I have a book.. but it's at my parent's place (I hate having to leave my library behind every time I move :P) | 23:58 |
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| vi1985 | andrei: no worries, I'll take your word for it ;) | 23:58 |
| vi1985 | andrei: do you know if IBM ever published Deep Blue code, or at least some documentation? | 23:59 |
| mithro | wb greywhind | 23:59 |
| JLafont | Wasn't deep blue dismantled immediately after the match? | 23:59 |
| greywhind | mithro: thanks... no idea why my internet keeps cutting out for a few seconds every once in a while | 23:59 |
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