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| nash | So this surprise is? | 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| mithro | nash: when I clean it up a little, i'll show you | 00:05 |
| * mithro laughs evilly | 00:11 | |
| mithro | o btw, I figure out the very strange error you where seeing sometimes with tpclient-pywx | 00:11 |
| mithro | I also figure out why it was being so slow | 00:11 |
| nash | Oh good | 00:11 |
| * nash assumed slow was: a) serial requests & b) python | 00:12 | |
| mithro | i had a time.sleep(0.1) in the wrong place | 00:12 |
| nash | Unlike tpe which is a) Hammer the server with everything you damn well can, and b) C | 00:12 |
| nash | Why is there a sleep at all? | 00:12 |
| mithro | well, it's probably 10x slower | 00:12 |
| mithro | nash: to stop it hammering the CPU while waiting on socket data | 00:13 |
| nash | What? No select()? | 00:13 |
| nash | And I often get a "resource unavailable" message when running | 00:14 |
| nash | Lots of them | 00:14 |
| mithro | nash: that means the client tried to get more data then the socket had ready | 00:15 |
| mithro | select only tells you data is ready, not how much is there | 00:16 |
| nash | Yeah, but read() with return what is there... Why are you getting an error? | 00:16 |
| mithro | hrm... | 00:17 |
| mithro | there was a reason, but I forget it now | 00:17 |
| * mithro ponders | 00:18 | |
| mithro | I think it was quicker to just let the thing fail instead of checking if data existed first | 00:19 |
| * nash notes console output is generally devestatingly slow | 00:20 | |
| mithro | the server side uses select | 00:20 |
| mithro | nash: they should only output when debug mode is on | 00:20 |
| nash | Which is hte default? | 00:20 |
| mithro | off (I think), but tpclient-pywx turns it on | 00:21 |
| nash | You should fix that. Any 'known' debug messages are a waste of time. They just get in the way of real errors | 00:23 |
| mithro | nash: i should really be checking the type of that error - IE only output when it's not a socket doesn't have data error | 00:23 |
| mithro | nash: there is a lot of things I should really do :P | 00:26 |
| * nash cares not - it's essentially spam | 00:26 | |
| mithro | xstruct should have way better error reporting | 00:26 |
| mithro | nash: lots of things to do, so little time :P | 00:28 |
| mithro | nash: I would appreciate feedback on the darcs tutorial thing - I'm not happy with the formatting in that email - think i'll convert it to a proper page | 00:28 |
| * nash hasn't read it yet | 00:28 | |
| mithro | on a scale of 1 to 10 I rate it about a 4 :P | 00:30 |
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| cherez | darcs tutorial?! | 00:39 |
| nash | cherez: Personally I think the first line should be "install a revision control system people actually know"... but anyway | 00:40 |
| mithro | nash: darcs is about as known as git | 00:40 |
| * nash disagrees with that | 00:40 | |
| nash | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=git+&word2=darcs+ | 00:41 |
| nash | As does googlefight ;-) | 00:42 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M5D> (at www.googlefight.com) | 00:42 |
| cherez | nash: git is also British slang | 00:43 |
| nash | cherez: Why does everyone tell me that? | 00:44 |
| nash | cherez: It's also australian slang. | 00:44 |
| nash | :-) | 00:44 |
| cherez | I learned it on the BBC | 00:44 |
| cherez | don't watch so much Australian TV | 00:44 |
| nash | cherez: Sorry - I just keep getting it told that by people as if it is unusual info... | 00:44 |
| cherez | darcs isn't slang as far as I know | 00:44 |
| nash | cherez: There isn't much australian tv | 00:44 |
| nash | cherez: Red Dwarf being the canonical reference for the word | 00:45 |
| cherez | and I have seen every episode of Red Dwarf | 00:45 |
| mithro | nash: in Americas and Europe, they wouldn't know about git :P | 00:45 |
| mithro | nash: fairer fight http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=darcs&word2=cogito | 00:47 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M5I> (at www.googlefight.com) | 00:47 |
| nash | mithro: I can sort of understand it online - but offline too... Besides Linus is a European who lives in America, and he knew exactly what is meant | 00:47 |
| mithro | nash: ahh well :P | 00:47 |
| nash | mithro: So cogito, a front end to git does a 3-2 on darcs... | 00:48 |
| mithro | ahh well | 00:48 |
| * nash jsut looked at the list of projects using darcs... | 00:49 | |
| mithro | hrm, turns out not to be that fair - cogito is the name of a few companies | 00:49 |
| mithro | http://www.google.com/trends?q=cogito%2C+darcs | 00:50 |
| tpb | Title: Google Trends: cogito, darcs (at www.google.com) | 00:50 |
| * nash notes a large % are haskell projects | 00:50 | |
| mithro | nash: ahh well, tailor makes the problem not that huge | 00:51 |
| nash | So is there a solution for darcs on windows? | 00:51 |
| cherez | cogito is also a fairly common Latin word | 00:53 |
| mithro | nash: there are precompiled binaries which work to some degree | 00:54 |
| * nash had assumed mithro would have chosen a vcs that worked on all the platforms he wanted to target... | 00:54 | |
| cherez | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=darcs+version+control&word2=git+version+control | 00:55 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M5S> (at www.googlefight.com) | 00:55 |
| mithro | nash: well it does work under windows - you just have to use the command line interface | 00:55 |
| nash | cherez: The adds are great... One for Bazaar, and one for CVS | 00:55 |
| mithro | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=darcs&word2=git+version+control | 00:56 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M5T> (at www.googlefight.com) | 00:56 |
| mithro | :@ | 00:56 |
| mithro | s/:@/:P | 00:56 |
| nash | mithro: Try darcs vs git cogito | 00:56 |
| mithro | nash: darcs win that one :P | 00:57 |
| nash | mithro: my point exactly | 00:57 |
| mithro | ahh well, as I said, tailor makes this not a huge problem | 00:58 |
| cherez | I put version control on both as I figured that would filter out most Red Dwarf discussions and I would think they'd both mention version control on about the same fraction of sites | 00:58 |
| mithro | if cogito becomes "better" then darcs, we just convert it | 00:58 |
| cherez | is this tutorial online? | 00:59 |
| nash | Actually one area where both git and darcs suck - is new user doco :-( | 01:00 |
| mithro | cherez: it's in the forums or on the mailing list | 01:04 |
| cherez | alright, I'll read it | 01:04 |
| cherez | I still haven't figured out how to generate patches | 01:04 |
| cherez | I was hoping to fix the Python server up at least a bit, and submit the pywx patch | 01:05 |
| cherez | I figured out my problem | 01:05 |
| cherez | I have 2.4 and 2.6 installed, and it defaults to 2.4 unless 2.6 is selected before importing | 01:05 |
| nash | Ohh... patches ;-) | 01:05 |
| mithro | cherez: yay! | 01:05 |
| cherez | so I was going to import wxversion and specify 2.6 inside a try | 01:06 |
| cherez | oh, and pyOpenSSL | 01:06 |
| cherez | it doesn't detect it on either of my systems | 01:06 |
| mithro | cherez: ahh | 01:06 |
| cherez | I think it's trying "import pyOpenSSL" | 01:06 |
| cherez | but the package is named OpenSSL on both my Ubuntu and Gentoo boxes | 01:07 |
| cherez | so a "try: import OpenSSL as pyOpenSSL" might work | 01:07 |
| cherez | I've been too busy with my mother to try it though | 01:08 |
| cherez | and I will probably be computerless after tonight until saturday or sunday | 01:08 |
| mithro | cherez: :/ | 01:08 |
| cherez | my mother requires too much babysitting for me to do homework and TP | 01:09 |
| mithro | cherez: well, hope you have better luck with your mother | 01:09 |
| cherez | thanks | 01:09 |
| cherez | I promised my girlfriend we'd see a movie before I go back to the dorm, so I can't leave yet | 01:10 |
| mithro | bblr | 01:16 |
| cherez | the library! | 01:22 |
| cherez | I can go to the public library to work on TP and print docs to read | 01:23 |
| cherez | woohoo, I get to hack code with Notepad over Explorer FTP | 01:23 |
| * nash thinks hacking code with a 2B may be easier then that | 01:27 | |
| cherez | hacking by dial-uping with a telephone would be easier | 01:58 |
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| cherez | 'lo, mithro | 02:44 |
| tpb | aloril has quit worldforge (Ping timeout: 620 seconds) | 02:50 |
| mithro | nash: ping? | 02:52 |
| nash | you rang? | 02:53 |
| mithro | nash: here comes the suprise :) | 02:53 |
| tpb | aloril has joined on worldforge | 02:54 |
| nash | aloril has joined worldforge is not what i expected... | 02:55 |
| * mithro uploads | 02:55 | |
| mithro | lousy slow wireless :/ | 02:55 |
| * nash notes impact is lessened | 02:55 | |
| tpb | <aloril@worldforge> hehe | 02:56 |
| mithro | yeah, maybe I should have waited for it to upload first :P | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * tpsai-py/ (50 files): | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | Big update.: | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | AI now uses a "task method". This means it creates a list of tasks which need to | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | be done and then assigns assets to do the tasks. This stops the AI from | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | assigning two colonisation fleets to the same planet. | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | AI still has no concept of time. It will rewrite all the orders every turn. This | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | is bad, but oh well. | 02:56 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * tpsai-py/ (25 files): | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | AI Actually does something.: | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | AI connects and issues orders. | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | Only builds frigates, and then only works if it was the first player connected. | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | (Not smart enough to send a probe and figure out which is actually frigate.) | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | Does stupid things like sending multiple coloniser ships to one location (as has | 02:57 |
| CIA-17 | no concept of future action). | 02:57 |
| mithro | nash: there you go :P | 02:58 |
| mithro | should give smith a run for is money | 02:58 |
| mithro | s/is/his | 02:59 |
| nash | Cool | 03:00 |
| nash | Does it handle 10 second turns? | 03:00 |
| * nash notes he is going to be up late adding a few new features | 03:00 | |
| nash | First question: Are there any other entries? | 03:01 |
| mithro | nash: yes | 03:01 |
| nash | Cool | 03:01 |
| nash | how many? | 03:01 |
| mithro | although unlike smith, he isn't a persistant AI | 03:01 |
| mithro | IE you run him once for each turn | 03:01 |
| mithro | should be pretty easy to add persistance support however | 03:02 |
| mithro | nash: nobody has said anything about submitting an entry yet | 03:02 |
| mithro | so I thought we should atleast give smith something to crush :) | 03:02 |
| nash | mithro: I need to add my "build warships" patches then ;-) | 03:03 |
| nash | Also I'm deciding how defensive to be... | 03:03 |
| nash | And whether I should write to the rules, or write for a general game | 03:03 |
| * nash prefers to write for the game... | 03:03 | |
| nash | Also, one thing I have is the ability to have multiple AIs in the binary - you just use --ai=<AI Name> to select | 03:04 |
| nash | So if I want to submit two AIs - do I need to do the whole damn thing twice? | 03:04 |
| mithro | the tpsai-py is very simple in how it works | 03:04 |
| nash | So is smith | 03:04 |
| mithro | it creates a list of "tasks" | 03:04 |
| nash | And does them | 03:05 |
| mithro | and then works out which assets can be used to fullfil the tasks | 03:05 |
| mithro | and then issues the orders | 03:05 |
| nash | Smith is even simpler - he just watches for interesting things, and reacts | 03:05 |
| nash | Interesting things are: | 03:05 |
| nash | - Objects which he can order | 03:05 |
| mithro | i will be intrested to see which one works better :P | 03:06 |
| mithro | i'm a bit disappointed because it shows how easy it is/was to write an AI | 03:06 |
| nash | Well smith needs to have some concept of things to do | 03:06 |
| nash | mithro: Indeed - most of my work was gui stuff | 03:07 |
| mithro | yet nobody else seems to have taken up the challenge | 03:07 |
| nash | 302 891 6885 ai_smith.c | 03:07 |
| nash | 39 98 817 ai_util.c | 03:07 |
| nash | 341 989 7702 total | 03:07 |
| mithro | tim@ultraslim:~/oss/tp/tpsai-py$ wc -l *py | 03:11 |
| mithro | 173 things.py | 03:11 |
| mithro | 272 tpsai-py | 03:11 |
| mithro | 445 total | 03:11 |
| nash | I've written just shy of 5000 lines of code... 350 for the AI ;-) | 03:11 |
| mithro | anyway I have a meeting an luck | 03:11 |
| nash | Okay 0 talk to you soon | 03:12 |
| mithro | we can have battles on the weekend after you submit :P | 03:12 |
| nash | You on this afternoon? | 03:12 |
| nash | mithro: Love to | 03:12 |
| nash | happy to this afternoon if you like | 03:12 |
| mithro | nash: well i have things I should be working on :P | 03:13 |
| nash | okay - just wanted to ask you some questions this afternoon - not play AI games | 03:13 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/objects/Object.py : Object now has a slightly better repr method. | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/common.py : | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Remove a sleep which was causing slowness.: | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | This sleep was triggering when there was no data on the socket, however there | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | was still frames which had not been fully processed yet. This makes the library | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | a little less friendly however. | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/common.py : | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | (Bad) Fix for a problem nash was having.: | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | When getting order descriptions you get a recursive call which can cause keys to | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | disappear. This should make sure it no longer crashes in this case. | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/ (xstruct.py xstruct.py xstruct.py xstruct.py): | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Added better error checking and reporting.: | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Now check that you arn't trying to send a negative number to an unsigned type. | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Errors are now a bit more informative (instead of things like "Can't mask | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | string"). | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/ (client.py objects/Order_Insert.py): | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Fixed the second method of adding an order.: | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | The connection.order_insert(100, -1, BUILD_TYPE, *arguments) now works. Every other | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | client uses the connection.order_insert(100, -1, Order()) method. | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | [email protected] * libtpproto-py/tp/netlib/objects/OrderDesc.py : | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | Raised a better error.: | 03:14 |
| CIA-17 | This will let new developers figure out the IS for a String problem quicker. | 03:14 |
| nash | mithro: So yeah - are you going to be online - even if doing other things? | 03:15 |
| nash | Also did you see my email to the tp-devel list? | 03:15 |
| nash | About URI schemes | 03:15 |
| nash | Anyway - off to lunch | 03:17 |
| nash | back soon | 03:17 |
| mithro | nash: replied to your email | 04:10 |
| nash | mithro: Cool | 04:26 |
| mithro | nash: that all okay? | 04:44 |
| nash | not quite - I am replying now... doesn't affect me at the moment - but I see some issues | 04:44 |
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| cherez | man, it is hard to write a decent goodbye note | 05:06 |
| cherez | that must be a major suicide deterrent | 05:06 |
| dmpayton_WoW | cherez: Hows it coming? =/ | 05:07 |
| cherez | almost done | 05:08 |
| cherez | "I've been concerned about your drinking for a long time and it has become a horrible problem for both you and those around you. I and others have tried to help you, but I truly don't believe you want to be helped. I think it is time to take control of my life and not let your drinking affect me, so I have decided to leave until you seek help and overcome this problem. I love you and don't want this to drive us apart, but I see no other way." | 05:11 |
| mithro | cherez: is there a local alchohol victim support group? | 05:18 |
| cherez | I don't know, I'll look into it | 05:21 |
| mithro | because I would highly recommend talking to them | 05:22 |
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| mithro | cherez: there are plenty which have nothing to do with religion as well (if you prefer that) | 05:29 |
| jotham | haha @ suicide note comment | 05:36 |
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| cherez | well then, I'm going | 06:27 |
| cherez | I guess I'll see you guys in a few days | 06:28 |
| cherez | thanks | 06:28 |
| jotham | good luck bro | 06:28 |
| cherez | thanks everyone | 06:28 |
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| dmpayton_WoW | Man, I hope everything works out for him. | 07:08 |
| nash | yeah | 07:14 |
| nash | hope so too | 07:14 |
| nash | ANyway - be back later | 07:15 |
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| mithro | well i'm heading home | 07:38 |
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| *** nash has joined #tp | 08:49 | |
| * nash waves | 08:51 | |
| *** sijmen has joined #tp | 09:10 | |
| sijmen | morning! | 09:10 |
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| nash | Evening | 09:23 |
| daxxar | Mornin' :) | 09:45 |
| nash | Seems I'm out voted | 09:45 |
| sijmen | yay daxxar | 09:45 |
| * nash informs planet the sun is in the wrong spot... | 09:45 | |
| sijmen | hmm | 09:46 |
| sijmen | maybe you should file a bug | 09:46 |
| daxxar | nash: Let me know when the bug is resolved | 09:46 |
| nash | The but? | 09:46 |
| nash | The bug? | 09:46 |
| sijmen | I didn't know the solar system generator was done though | 09:46 |
| daxxar | nash: The sun-bug. | 09:47 |
| nash | :-0 | 09:47 |
| daxxar | Anyway, that thing with cherez, was that his mother? | 09:47 |
| sijmen | huh? | 09:48 |
| daxxar | Real shame, hope it works out. :| | 09:48 |
| nash | daxxar: I believe so | 09:49 |
| nash | Yeah | 09:49 |
| daxxar | Can't be easy.. | 09:49 |
| sijmen | What happened? | 09:49 |
| daxxar | It seems she has a alcohol problem.. :( | 09:50 |
| sijmen | and.. his mother? | 09:50 |
| daxxar | Yes, she's the one who has it | 09:51 |
| sijmen | ooh | 09:51 |
| sijmen | :| | 09:51 |
| daxxar | But I'm not really familiar with it, I've just seen him talk about it, so it's kinda out of my place to talk about it | 09:51 |
| daxxar | Let's just give him our thoughts and hope it works out. :-) | 09:52 |
| sijmen | yah | 09:52 |
| daxxar | (or prayers, if you're into religion) | 09:52 |
| daxxar | Well, I'll be heading to a project meeting. :-) | 09:56 |
| sijmen | this late? :o | 09:56 |
| daxxar | Have a pleasant morning / day, sijmen / nash. | 09:56 |
| daxxar | It's 11.59AM ;) | 09:56 |
| sijmen | heh ;) | 09:56 |
| sijmen | gbye | 09:56 |
| nash | Talk to you later | 09:56 |
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| sijmen | what's that "Remote closed the connection" thing? | 10:05 |
| sijmen | does it mean you closed your bash/ssh session or something? | 10:05 |
| nash | sijmen: Or the client | 10:34 |
| sijmen | okay | 10:47 |
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| llnz | that was lucky | 10:54 |
| sijmen | so am i | 10:54 |
| llnz | international traffic from my ISP is *very* slow and unreliable today | 10:55 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/player.cpp : Update copyright date in player.cpp | 10:58 |
| *** dmpayton_WoW is now known as dmpayton | 11:31 | |
| nash | raid done? | 11:32 |
| llnz | the tpserver-cpp on llnz.dyndns.org (ie, my testing server) has done 10153 turns | 11:52 |
| llnz | about 70.5 days | 11:53 |
| nash | not bad | 11:53 |
| llnz | (it runs with persistence, because it gets restarted quite often) | 11:53 |
| nash | Ahh | 11:54 |
| nash | 70 days up would be impressive | 11:54 |
| nash | Still there must be a lot of cruft in that universe | 11:56 |
| llnz | see the metaserver | 11:56 |
| llnz | 14 players, 63 objects (no generated universe except of three star systems) | 11:57 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/ (83 files in 3 dirs): | 11:57 |
| CIA-17 | Shifting turn processing from tpserver to rulesets: | 11:57 |
| CIA-17 | This gives rulesets great flexibility about how the turn is processed. Both | 11:57 |
| CIA-17 | MinisecTurn and MTSecTurn will get rewritten to make the most of it. Also made | 11:57 |
| CIA-17 | slight improvement to reducing magic numbers. | 11:57 |
| nash | Question: Where is the game name supposed to be in the url over http? | 11:57 |
| * llnz really doesn't know | 11:58 | |
| nash | mithro's email earlier was contradictory | 11:58 |
| * nash notes games really need to be sorted out | 11:58 | |
| llnz | i think it should be at the end (host:port/gamename) | 11:58 |
| nash | But then how do you do http://host/path/to/server/ ? | 11:59 |
| llnz | you don't | 11:59 |
| llnz | it's not a url, it's a uri | 11:59 |
| llnz | the actual request in http is for "/<12 random hex chars>" | 12:00 |
| llnz | or something like that | 12:00 |
| nash | True | 12:01 |
| llnz | http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/dev/documents/protocol3.php#HTTPTunneling | 12:01 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M:4> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 12:01 |
| llnz | we passed 80k lines of code today (or yesterday) | 12:04 |
| * llnz notes that about 12k is libltdl | 12:05 | |
| nash | ouch | 12:05 |
| llnz | silly distros, if they hadn't "fixed it" then i would need to include it in the tpserver-cpp tree | 12:07 |
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| nash | Indeed | 12:09 |
| llnz | hi mithro | 12:10 |
| mithro | howdy | 12:10 |
| sijmen | hi | 12:11 |
| mithro | sup? | 12:13 |
| nash | What is the default port again? | 12:14 |
| mithro | 6923 | 12:14 |
| nash | Is that something? | 12:14 |
| llnz | my /etc/services doesn't list anything for that port | 12:15 |
| nash | okay | 12:16 |
| sijmen | how was that number chosen? | 12:16 |
| nash | sijmen: I think that was the way | 12:17 |
| llnz | i chose it | 12:17 |
| llnz | not exactly randomly | 12:17 |
| sijmen | then how did you came up with it? | 12:17 |
| llnz | 6900's is fairly common for games | 12:18 |
| llnz | and 23 is my lucky number (birthday) | 12:18 |
| llnz | :-) | 12:18 |
| sijmen | hah okay | 12:18 |
| llnz | i think i did check /etc/services before telling everyone though | 12:19 |
| * llnz notes his email hasn't reached the devel list yet | 12:21 | |
| * llnz wonders if mithro has read the cvs list yet | 12:23 | |
| nash | BTW: You should register 6923 and 6924 with IANA | 12:23 |
| mithro | llnz: reading now | 12:23 |
| llnz | nash: my email to devel (about an hour ago) suggested that | 12:23 |
| llnz | seems my isp isn't doing well internationally today | 12:24 |
| mithro | llnz / nash: feel free to do it :P | 12:24 |
| mithro | llnz: you see my commits? | 12:24 |
| llnz | mithro: i skimmed them, why? | 12:24 |
| * mithro points to the tpsai-py :P | 12:25 | |
| llnz | ah, cool | 12:25 |
| nash | bbs | 12:25 |
| mithro | it should give nash's AI a run for it's money | 12:25 |
| llnz | :-) | 12:27 |
| nash | mithro: I still wish you'd make the deadling 23:59 on Saturday | 12:28 |
| nash | I'm out tomorrow | 12:28 |
| mithro | nash: aah well :P | 12:30 |
| * nash had assume it was saturday night | 12:31 | |
| mithro | hrm, oh well | 12:31 |
| mithro | nash: well atleast we got two AI out of the AI Comp :) | 12:32 |
| mithro | dmpayton: http://freshmeat.net/projects/ajaxstub/?branch_id=68789&release_id=250485 | 12:34 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/M:Q> (at freshmeat.net) | 12:34 |
| nash | mithro: You also have an extra partial client, a couple of new platforms (Soon), and another infrastructure library for building AIs | 12:35 |
| nash | And a new developer ;-) | 12:35 |
| mithro | yeah | 12:35 |
| mithro | not a total loss | 12:35 |
| llnz | not a total loss by a long way | 12:38 |
| * llnz ponders what to do next | 12:38 | |
| nash | llnz: tp04 | 12:38 |
| llnz | nash: i was thinking about that | 12:38 |
| nash | BTW: Is there a url scheme for the metaserver> | 12:38 |
| nash | So I can do the equiv of ./client <metaserver URI to browse> | 12:38 |
| mithro | url scheme? | 12:38 |
| sijmen | maybe there should be a metaserver browser.. maybe using some kind of metaserver. | 12:38 |
| nash | So in tp04 you can talk toa metaserver to get a list of games it knows about | 12:39 |
| llnz | mithro: he means something like "tpmeta+http://" | 12:39 |
| nash | I want my client to be able to handle that... | 12:39 |
| mithro | http://metaserver.thousandparsec.net/ | 12:39 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec : Metaserver Server Listing (at metaserver.thousandparsec.net) | 12:39 |
| nash | Yeah | 12:39 |
| nash | No, thats a human interface | 12:39 |
| nash | I mean client interface | 12:39 |
| sijmen | Hey maybe that's not a bad idea. Metaservers referencing each other so you'd get a mesh of metaservers | 12:40 |
| mithro | http://metaserver.thousandparsec.net/?action=get | 12:40 |
| nash | mithro: Ugly... and not quite what I mean... | 12:40 |
| nash | I want something like tpm://hostname/ | 12:40 |
| nash | m for meta here | 12:40 |
| mithro | nash: feel free to suggest something | 12:41 |
| nash | I shall have to | 12:41 |
| mithro | metaserver was only designed/setup in a few hours | 12:41 |
| nash | Yes, but tp04 has a lot of features in it | 12:42 |
| nash | To handle servers | 12:42 |
| nash | Also need to start looking at a proper game setup protocol | 12:42 |
| nash | A lobby ;-) | 12:42 |
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| nash | So I can start a game with a few friends or other poeple without everyone just jumnping in part way through the game. | 12:43 |
| mithro | nash: hrm, well once we have EOT support added it won't be such problem | 12:43 |
| nash | Nope, it's a start, but doesn't help. In many games the server needs # of players when it sets up the universe | 12:44 |
| nash | Creating a <player> home star doesn't work | 12:44 |
| mithro | why? | 12:44 |
| nash | RFTS and Stars! are the obvious examples | 12:44 |
| nash | Well for starters peoples homeworlds are secret... | 12:44 |
| nash | [in both of those games] | 12:45 |
| nash | So it needs to be there at the begining | 12:45 |
| nash | Slotting them in to a random world or creating one doesn't work | 12:45 |
| mithro | ahh well, figure out something then :P | 12:45 |
| mithro | this is not an area i'm all that intrested in | 12:46 |
| nash | What - playing stars? | 12:47 |
| mithro | trying to figure out how to do a lobby properly | 12:47 |
| nash | doign is properly is anohter issue | 12:47 |
| nash | As an aside... Posix regex interface in C... sucks | 12:49 |
| mithro | he he :P | 12:49 |
| nash | Never used them before in C... | 12:49 |
| * nash was half tempted to do popen("perl -e '/.../'"); | 12:50 | |
| llnz | is supporting tp03 with binary version needed? (ie same header format as tp04) | 12:50 |
| mithro | llnz: it would be nice | 12:51 |
| mithro | llnz: as it's going to be a fairly slow process for libtpproto-py to be updated | 12:51 |
| mithro | (unless one of the students gets into it) | 12:51 |
| llnz | it doesn't really add anything except allowing that header to be different | 12:53 |
| mithro | tim@ultraslim:~/oss/tp/tpsai-py$ time ./tpsai-py > /dev/null | 12:54 |
| mithro | real 0m0.772s | 12:54 |
| mithro | user 0m0.532s | 12:54 |
| mithro | sys 0m0.048s | 12:54 |
| mithro | llnz: up to you | 12:54 |
| mithro | nash: not to bad, 770ms to start up python, download the complete universe (with the aicomp config), and issue all the orders | 12:56 |
| nash | mithro: Sure beats the hell out of the python client ;-) | 12:56 |
| mithro | real 0m2.553s | 12:57 |
| mithro | thats without the redirect to null | 12:57 |
| mithro | 1.8s just to output to the console!? | 12:58 |
| nash | How much does it pront | 12:58 |
| mithro | quite a bit | 12:58 |
| nash | consoles (especially gnome-term and friends) are slow... | 12:58 |
| mithro | 565 lines | 12:58 |
| nash | sounds about right | 12:59 |
| mithro | ./tpsai-py | wc -l | 12:59 |
| mithro | 565 | 12:59 |
| nash | Try running with >& /dev/null | 12:59 |
| mithro | hrm? | 12:59 |
| mithro | still around 700ms | 12:59 |
| mithro | if i turn debugging on it goes to 11 seconds! | 13:00 |
| nash | BTW... 6923 is in the middle of the bittorrent range... | 13:04 |
| llnz | bittorrent will use any available port | 13:05 |
| sijmen | that's probably why they blocke dit here then | 13:05 |
| nash | llnz: Only between 6800 and 6999 was what I was just reading | 13:05 |
| llnz | humm... | 13:06 |
| nash | Azerus or whatver it is called uses the same range | 13:06 |
| sijmen | Azereus | 13:08 |
| nash | thank yo | 13:08 |
| nash | u | 13:08 |
| nash | stupid keyboard | 13:08 |
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| nash | mithro: Regarding the "Your AI must work from an arbitrary location" | 13:10 |
| mithro | yes? | 13:10 |
| nash | I assume that means you may do something like make install PREFIX=/usr/pants | 13:10 |
| nash | But you won't just do a cp tpai /usr/pants and expect it to work? | 13:10 |
| nash | Actually, I realised... since it's running without GUI... I don;t need any data | 13:11 |
| nash | Don't worry for now.. I'll sort that out later ;-) | 13:12 |
| nash | The data path I need is only for the GUI... | 13:13 |
| nash | So... who cares at the moment ;-) | 13:13 |
| mithro | :) | 13:15 |
| mithro | jc, the ai has exponential growth :P | 13:19 |
| nash | mithro: I've been saying that for ages | 13:20 |
| nash | It's why minisec is an AI game. And really pointless | 13:20 |
| nash | mithro: And it's extremely sensite to initial conditions. | 13:20 |
| nash | Get a setup where one AI is close to a few planets, and one is a bit away. | 13:21 |
| nash | After 20 turns see the difference | 13:21 |
| mithro | probably | 13:21 |
| nash | It's a scary difference | 13:21 |
| * mithro is going to leave it running for a bit | 13:22 | |
| mithro | tpclient-pywx is now able to keep up with 20 second turns | 13:22 |
| llnz | once all planets are colonised, the real test/fun begins | 13:22 |
| nash | #set turn length (in seconds) | 13:22 |
| nash | turn_length = 10 | 13:22 |
| nash | #minisec ruleset options | 13:22 |
| nash | minisec_min_systems = 50 | 13:22 |
| nash | minisec_max_systems = 100 | 13:22 |
| nash | #which gives about 20 on average | 13:22 |
| nash | minisec_min_planets = 1 | 13:22 |
| nash | minisec_max_planets = 10 | 13:22 |
| nash | #which gives about 2 on average | 13:22 |
| nash | I've been testing with that ;-) | 13:22 |
| nash | llnz: Not for me. With losing 2 days, I won't have time to merge in my agressive fleet patches :-( | 13:23 |
| llnz | nash: how good is your ai at defending? | 13:23 |
| nash | Having said that... it would take a long time to take out the fleets and fleets of frigates that are going to be above each world | 13:23 |
| llnz | :-) | 13:23 |
| nash | llnz: If there is nothing to colonise it keeps building frigates | 13:23 |
| nash | memory usage is kinda scary when you leave it over night... | 13:24 |
| mithro | nash: mine stops | 13:24 |
| mithro | it'll continually build frigates+battleships to try and take out other fleets | 13:24 |
| mithro | http://www.thousandparsec.net/~tim/Screenshot-1.png | 13:25 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/MA5> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 13:25 |
| mithro | after 20 turns | 13:25 |
| nash | I've got a world attack patch, but tuning it to take an appropriate number of ships was a PITA | 13:26 |
| llnz | wow | 13:26 |
| mithro | llnz: he he, a human has no hope against an AI in Minisec :) | 13:27 |
| nash | llnz: Have you seen http://tranquillity.nash.id.au/tp/ | 13:27 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec E-Client Screenshots (at tranquillity.nash.id.au) | 13:27 |
| nash | mithro: I said that ages ago... | 13:27 |
| llnz | oh, | 13:27 |
| llnz | does the guest have no system or ships? | 13:27 |
| mithro | llnz: it has a scout, which the AI ignores (it has a threat level of 0) | 13:28 |
| llnz | odd | 13:28 |
| mithro | tpserver-cpp> tpserver-cpp: minisec.cpp:481: virtual void MiniSec::checkGame(): Assertion `fleet->totalShips() > 0' failed. | 13:28 |
| mithro | Aborted (core dumped) | 13:28 |
| mithro | :/ | 13:28 |
| llnz | mithro: update | 13:29 |
| nash | Ahh... that's still around... | 13:29 |
| mithro | nash: nah, running old code | 13:29 |
| llnz | i thought i had fixed that | 13:29 |
| nash | okay | 13:29 |
| * mithro pulls | 13:29 | |
| mithro | llnz: http://tranquillity.nash.id.au/tp/Screenshot-6.png :) | 13:29 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/MA-> (at tranquillity.nash.id.au) | 13:29 |
| llnz | yeah, just saw that one | 13:30 |
| nash | mithro: Do you still have a sources list for the e libraries | 13:30 |
| mithro | yes | 13:30 |
| mithro | no | 13:30 |
| nash | Give me a moment - I'll get a 8 way shot | 13:30 |
| nash | It's insane | 13:30 |
| mithro | they disappeared when I updated to Fesity | 13:30 |
| llnz | nash: Screenshot-13.png is 404 (not found) | 13:31 |
| nash | To be frank, between little competition (so I'm just fighting myself at the moment) and a weak ruleset, my inspiration to fix the AI is limited | 13:31 |
| nash | llnz: okay - will fix | 13:31 |
| mithro | nash: well in 4 months you'll have plenty of rulesets to fight with | 13:31 |
| nash | Yeah, then I'll have fun | 13:32 |
| nash | llnz: Try noe | 13:32 |
| nash | try now - it's a good one | 13:32 |
| mithro | nash: i find your colors very hard to see | 13:32 |
| nash | mithro: Good thing my interface is themeable then ;-) | 13:33 |
| llnz | nash: impressive | 13:33 |
| mithro | nash: no colorizing the ships? | 13:33 |
| nash | mithro: Not yet | 13:34 |
| nash | Also all ships are the same. | 13:34 |
| nash | I haven't had time to fix that | 13:34 |
| nash | The ships are named now | 13:34 |
| nash | Of course... that makes it even harder to see at times... | 13:35 |
| mithro | mine just makes them all called "A robot army!" :P | 13:35 |
| nash | static const char *shipnames[] = { | 13:35 |
| nash | "Endeavour", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Spore", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Mayflower", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Colonial", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Vanquish", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Victory", | 13:35 |
| nash | "Sirius", | 13:35 |
| nash | }; | 13:35 |
| nash | Followed by #id | 13:35 |
| JLP | ahoy people | 13:36 |
| llnz | hi JLP | 13:36 |
| nash | heyo | 13:36 |
| nash | Generating new screenshot with 8 AIs | 13:36 |
| nash | I'll wait to about turn 10 | 13:36 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/ (52 files in 2 dirs): | 13:37 |
| CIA-17 | TP04 support in frame, and reformating: | 13:37 |
| CIA-17 | Also added support for padding strings (and data and bytes) to 32bit boundaries, for | 13:37 |
| CIA-17 | the alignment filter. | 13:37 |
| llnz | :-) | 13:37 |
| nash | hmmm | 13:38 |
| mithro | nash: it would be cool to do an animated version? | 13:38 |
| mithro | could you automatically dump a screenshot each turn? | 13:38 |
| nash | I could actually | 13:39 |
| nash | But not tonight... no time :-/ | 13:39 |
| nash | I could also have it just save the star map | 13:39 |
| mithro | nash: an animated picture would be soo cool :) | 13:40 |
| nash | mithro: I'll look over the weekend | 13:40 |
| nash | It's fairly easy... Might make a new 'logger' interface for that however | 13:41 |
| nash | Hmm... this is not good | 13:42 |
| nash | since I updated the server 8 AIs don't work properly | 13:42 |
| nash | 4 are fine | 13:42 |
| nash | There is a 14 and 15 screenshot there now... | 13:47 |
| mithro | hrm, not seeing them | 13:48 |
| nash | updating index | 13:49 |
| nash | okay - look now... | 13:52 |
| mithro | wow | 13:53 |
| mithro | http://tranquillity.nash.id.au/tp/Screenshot-17.png | 13:53 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/MAc> (at tranquillity.nash.id.au) | 13:53 |
| nash | that's 4 AIs | 13:54 |
| nash | I've done 16. | 13:54 |
| nash | I had a larger map. | 13:54 |
| nash | Turn gen was taking about 30 seconds | 13:54 |
| llnz | ouch | 13:55 |
| nash | I had to give them 20 seconds to do turn entry... | 13:55 |
| llnz | approx number of objects? | 13:55 |
| mithro | nash: fixing up the AI improve libtpproto-py quite a bit | 13:56 |
| nash | llnz: 400 * 5 worlds | 13:57 |
| nash | Probably a few times that again ships | 13:57 |
| nash | Duplicated 17 times... (1 server + 16 AIs) | 13:57 |
| llnz | so circa 8000-10000 objects | 13:57 |
| nash | Yeah | 13:58 |
| nash | Probably something like that | 13:58 |
| llnz | what's tpserver-cpp's memory usage like? | 13:58 |
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| mithro | nash: I wonder how tpclient-pywx would handle that many objects | 14:00 |
| llnz | mithro: removing the delay from libtpproto-py made tpclient-pywx go nice and fast | 14:01 |
| nash | mithro: Badly... My machine was hurting | 14:01 |
| nash | I stopped when I got a CPU over temp limit message | 14:01 |
| llnz | ouch | 14:02 |
| nash | llnz: My machine has heat problems to be fair | 14:02 |
| mithro | llnz: i think the config parsing is a bit borked? | 14:02 |
| mithro | #minisec ruleset options | 14:03 |
| mithro | minisec_min_systems = 1000 | 14:03 |
| mithro | minisec_max_systems = 5000 | 14:03 |
| mithro | yet it only generated 150 systems | 14:03 |
| mithro | any idea? | 14:03 |
| llnz | it should only generate one for each name in the list of system names | 14:04 |
| llnz | so it should only create 45 systems | 14:04 |
| mithro | :/ | 14:04 |
| mithro | so I should make the list bigger? | 14:04 |
| llnz | it may have also reached the minisec_total_planets limit | 14:04 |
| nash | mithro: Highlight - cut and paste, s/"/"X/ for the second | 14:05 |
| nash | Repeat but with Y | 14:05 |
| mithro | llnz: it should probably read from a text file? | 14:07 |
| nash | Or have a generator ;-) | 14:07 |
| nash | mithro: Add more planets ;-) | 14:08 |
| nash | I use 1-10, but higher numbers can be quite silly for objects ;-) | 14:08 |
| mithro | where did I put matthew's planet name generator | 14:08 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (frame.cpp frame.h): Better name for enablePaddingStrings | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/playertcpconn.cpp : | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | Allow incoming tp04 connections: | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | I think it set it up well. | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (4 files): | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | Added paddingfilter property to playerconnection: | 14:09 |
| CIA-17 | Currently not set, but it is there. | 14:09 |
| llnz | the server at llnz.dyndns.org will take tp04 connections | 14:10 |
| nash | llnz: I'm so not adding support for that now.. | 14:11 |
| llnz | hehe | 14:11 |
| llnz | i guess i need to write more of the protocol.xml soon | 14:13 |
| nash | yes | 14:14 |
| mithro | and the xslt | 14:18 |
| llnz | yes | 14:19 |
| llnz | anyway | 14:20 |
| * llnz wanders off | 14:20 | |
| llnz | later all | 14:20 |
| nash | llnz: night | 14:20 |
| *** llnz has quit IRC | 14:20 | |
| nash | BTW: Writing submission email now | 14:20 |
| nash | mithro: Enjoy | 14:21 |
| mithro | 5000 systems is a bad idea :P | 14:21 |
| nash | mithro: :-) | 14:22 |
| nash | mithro: We may need to start work on more ondemand server downloading ;-) | 14:23 |
| mithro | :) | 14:23 |
| nash | Anyway, got my submission yet? | 14:23 |
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| nash | mithro: ? | 14:25 |
| mithro | yes | 14:25 |
| nash | Seem to be okay? | 14:25 |
| mithro | yeah | 14:26 |
| mithro | just downloading now | 14:26 |
| nash | cool | 14:26 |
| mithro | nash: sums match | 14:27 |
| * nash isn't surprised | 14:27 | |
| nash | Also you can cg-clone from that public git tree | 14:28 |
| nash | The E libs work? | 14:29 |
| * nash wants to go to bed soon | 14:29 | |
| nash | real soon | 14:29 |
| nash | has to be up i too few hours | 14:30 |
| mithro | nash: i'll try later, so feel free to head to bed | 14:30 |
| nash | okay | 14:30 |
| nash | night | 14:30 |
| *** TBBle_ is now known as TBBle | 14:31 | |
| mithro | howdy TBBle, any luck? :P | 14:50 |
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| TBBle | Sorry, been flat out at work all week. And I've just noticed my laptop clock had stopped, it's 90 minutes later than I thought it was. >_< | 14:51 |
| mithro | :/ | 14:51 |
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| daxxar | Aaah. What a magnificent day. | 16:06 |
| Iwanowitch | Is it? | 16:07 |
| daxxar | From my subjective view, yes. :-) | 16:07 |
| Iwanowitch | Any particular reasons, then? :) | 16:08 |
| daxxar | Great weather (mild, sunny), last day before I take easter vacation (and travel to a cabin with some friends), finished the last piece of obligatory work for a subject that's really lame, I met with a girl I fooled around with on saturday, and I've got *GREAT* tasting beer here. ;D | 16:08 |
| Iwanowitch | Suppose that's okay, then :P | 16:09 |
| daxxar | Great big step up from the last week(s), indeed. I guess the whole weather thing has a great effect on ones mood. :) | 16:09 |
| daxxar | Oh, and my PS2 arrived ;p | 16:10 |
| daxxar | How's your day then, Iwanowitch? :) | 16:11 |
| Iwanowitch | Oh, not bad... Doing some schoolwork... Numercial methods for fluid flow, and it's not as fun as it sounds :P | 16:11 |
| daxxar | Hehe ;p | 16:12 |
| Iwanowitch | The weather is gray, though... Was a lot better the previous days. | 16:12 |
| daxxar | What field are you studying in? | 16:12 |
| daxxar | And where do you live? :) | 16:12 |
| Iwanowitch | Maths with minor informatics. | 16:13 |
| Iwanowitch | Belgium. | 16:13 |
| daxxar | Ah, ok. :-) | 16:13 |
| daxxar | Bachelors degree? | 16:13 |
| Iwanowitch | Yep. | 16:14 |
| daxxar | Neat. Second year? | 16:14 |
| Iwanowitch | Somewhere in between second and third year now. | 16:14 |
| daxxar | Ah, okay. :) | 16:14 |
| Iwanowitch | I got some courses from the second year I failed last time. | 16:14 |
| Iwanowitch | So it's a bit mixed up at the moment :) | 16:15 |
| daxxar | Hehe, yeah, I can relate to that. ;-) | 16:15 |
| daxxar | I was just going to say I've never been to belgium, but I actually have. ;-) | 16:15 |
| daxxar | Visited Antwerpen a few years ago, on our way to Paris. :) | 16:16 |
| Iwanowitch | I don't know Antwerpen too well myself, sorry :P | 16:17 |
| daxxar | Hehe, me neither, was just a quick visit on our way to Paris ;-) | 16:17 |
| daxxar | Had belgian waffles (?) and visited, uhm, sjømannskirka. | 16:17 |
| daxxar | Roughly translates to sailorschurch. =P | 16:17 |
| daxxar | sailors church* | 16:18 |
| Iwanowitch | Hmm, doesn't ring a bell :P | 16:19 |
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| Iwanowitch | Dammit, Processing is cool. 5 minutes of coding and I have the Lorenz butterfly on my screen. | 16:39 |
| daxxar | Processing? | 18:36 |
| Iwanowitch | It's a Java-like language/tool thing. Makes it easy to create small graphical programs. | 18:42 |
| Iwanowitch | (among other things) | 18:42 |
| Iwanowitch | http://processing.org/ | 18:42 |
| tpb | Title: Processing 1.0 (BETA) (at processing.org) | 18:42 |
| Iwanowitch | If someone asks for a language to start programming with, I'm going to point them to Processing from now on. | 18:43 |
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| * dmpayton yawns | 21:37 | |
| dmpayton | Mornin' | 21:37 |
| clayasaurus | mornin'' | 21:41 |
| clayasaurus | on the 1st day of google of code, someone gave to me... | 21:41 |
| dmpayton | a perl script that was bug-free... | 21:43 |
| dmpayton | ? | 21:43 |
| clayasaurus | :-P | 21:43 |
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| * nash waves | 23:05 | |
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| * Iwanowitch waves back to nash | 23:23 | |
| Iwanowitch | kind of silent in here...K | 23:23 |
| Iwanowitch | With that K at the start of my sentence. | 23:24 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: How is life? | 23:24 |
| Iwanowitch | Waiting, waiting... :P | 23:25 |
| nash | Not for SoC I hope? | 23:28 |
| Iwanowitch | Oh yes. | 23:29 |
| Iwanowitch | Nah, seriously, nothing much is happening... Bit of schoolwork. | 23:29 |
| Iwanowitch | Next two weeks are vacation, though. | 23:29 |
| nash | Well start working then ;-) | 23:33 |
| Iwanowitch | Meh, at 1:38 AM I can't do a lot of good things I think :P | 23:35 |
| nash | Are you on the mailing lists? | 23:36 |
| Iwanowitch | Yeah, on the tp one... Need to subscribe to tp-devel, too. | 23:39 |
| nash | Subscribe | 23:39 |
| nash | I can give you a long list of unsolved problems too... if you want to start discussions | 23:40 |
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| * nash waves | 23:44 | |
| Iwanowitch | Okay, I subscribed. A list of problems you say? | 23:44 |
| nash | Okay: First issue - protocol for creating a game. | 23:45 |
| nash | I want to be able to connect to a server: Using a game wizard or something start/create a new game | 23:46 |
| nash | Second: Lobby; I want to get a few of my friends together on a common serve,r and start a new game of X | 23:46 |
| nash | Third: URI scheme to tell my client to talk to a particular metaserver | 23:46 |
| Iwanowitch | Okay. Protocol for creating a game... I suppose this needs credentials checking, list of installed modules exchange, list of parameters exchange | 23:49 |
| nash | Have you seen the tp04 draft? | 23:50 |
| nash | And notes? | 23:50 |
| Iwanowitch | The discussion page, yes, don't know if there's anything more? | 23:51 |
| Iwanowitch | (this one: http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/dev/documents/protocol4.php) | 23:51 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/JqO> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 23:51 |
| nash | That is the main one. | 23:51 |
| nash | There is a draft generated from the XML source | 23:52 |
| nash | It's not so interesting | 23:52 |
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