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| iiie | skay, CarlFK, mithro: I don't know that I count as a core stake holder for veyepar (I do like it and very occasionally contribute). From my perspective as soon as the data can be expected to not be maintained, it shouldn't be used anymore. So after a conference when data either disappears or becomes static either mirror/cache "forever" or record the data that we were interested in. Mirroring is over the top, especially if we want to change it later for | 16:09 |
|---|---|---|
| iiie | accuracy (accurate for information, maybe present, certainly no historically what the data was). | 16:09 |
| iiie | Point is that after the conference / event is over the principals (organizers, presenters / speakers, and attendees) will NOT be maintaining the data. I could understand data-conscious (^_^) organizers updating for a week, a month (2,3,6,9,12). Even in the most extreme case (say the conference is on data preservation) I would be amazed if the data were updated at source (api / website) a year after the event. | 16:13 |
| iiie | How does syncing work today? I thought "syncing" for veyepar was ingestion (good link skay). The only reason to sync ever again is to get updates (additions and updates, as unless the previous grab's actions are scrapped, deletion doesn't count). | 16:16 |
| CarlFK | "after the conference / event is over the principals (organizers, presenters / speakers, and attendees) will NOT be maintaining the data" Um.. not true. | 16:17 |
| iiie | The data isn't versioned, so rollback isn't an option. veyepar in general isn't versioned (this is not a criticism as it isn't a need so far). | 16:17 |
| iiie | What's the longest after an event that the data has been changed so far? I'd like the conference / event folk to maintain data, but depending on them to seems very risky. | 16:20 |
| CarlFK | the point of this thread is: if data needs to be updated, should it happen at the conference site, veyepar or youtube & pyvideo | 16:21 |
| CarlFK | "needs" being kinda key here... | 16:23 |
| iiie | The sane option would be conference site (and api), then pulled to veyepar, and pushed to the published place. | 16:23 |
| CarlFK | right | 16:23 |
| CarlFK | I can see if the conference site was flipped from a data driven thing to a bunch of static html files | 16:23 |
| iiie | But what data can even be updated? What if the title of a talk changed? | 16:23 |
| CarlFK | that goes back to does this really need to be changed ? | 16:24 |
| skay_ | iiie: (unschedule talks, schedule changes, canceled talks… none of that usually gets updated on the site. they might get updated in signs during an event) | 16:24 |
| CarlFK | usually doesn't matter :) | 16:25 |
| skay_ | (I think the "process" you all follow should allow for fault tolerance like that) | 16:25 |
| CarlFK | When the schedule shifted Troy updated the start times of nodepdx | 16:25 |
| skay_ | (and no freaking out and getting all nazi over people not having data and then being dicks to them) | 16:25 |
| CarlFK | no telling me when I can't freak out and go nazi | 16:26 |
| skay_ | I know. I'm venting a bit | 16:27 |
| CarlFK | not having an ID for node caused me pain | 16:27 |
| iiie | Right, fault tolerance! Updates vary event / organizer | 16:27 |
| skay_ | I'm not thinking about freakouts with nodepdx or troy | 16:27 |
| skay_ | it's other things I have impressions of from before | 16:27 |
| skay_ | iiie: no body ever got fired for assuming that people are unreliable and lazy and have other things to do | 16:28 |
| skay_ | well, I mean the client who is like that might be fired. but then you don't get paid for doing everything for them | 16:28 |
| iiie | he he he | 16:28 |
| skay_ | buy IBM! | 16:28 |
| skay_ | ("nobody ever got fired for buying IBM") | 16:29 |
| CarlFK | it makes everyones (client, me, presenters) live easier if the client/presenter maintain the data and I pull copies | 16:30 |
| CarlFK | when the client agrees to that, then breaks it... I need to freak out | 16:30 |
| skay_ | I'm nto sure you've evr had clients consciously agree to that | 16:30 |
| iiie | there is a minimum set of data that must be available for the recording sheets (which in turn is the process's hard minimum). The data has to be accurate or the sheets won't be and the process will start to break. | 16:31 |
| skay_ | iiie: it's too fragile for handling things like a talk that changes within the hour | 16:32 |
| iiie | yes | 16:32 |
| skay_ | iiie: unless you can immediately update veyepar and reprint | 16:32 |
| skay_ | or have a tablet with webapp | 16:32 |
| CarlFK | what do you mean fragile ? | 16:32 |
| skay_ | a talk that changes within the hour and then go bug an organizer to change their data so that you can push it veyepar so that you can reprint | 16:32 |
| skay_ | not good | 16:32 |
| skay_ | not enough turn around time | 16:32 |
| CarlFK | I need the correct title in the db at the time I encode.. which is shortly after the talk happens | 16:33 |
| skay_ | fragile: easy for process (not just technogy, things done manually) to break down | 16:33 |
| iiie | but that's a change in process. What it would take to get to "more fault-tolerant" | 16:33 |
| skay_ | fragile: in your case, you want to be able to immediately react to changes | 16:33 |
| skay_ | but you have a chatty protocol that depends on an unreliable participant | 16:34 |
| skay_ | so that the roundtrip would probably take longer than it is worth anyone's time to handle in 30 minutes | 16:34 |
| skay_ | you need "eventual consistency" | 16:34 |
| skay_ | to make an analogy about databases. | 16:34 |
| skay_ | I mean,w ith | 16:35 |
| skay_ | arg, what does CAP stand for? consistency, aaa, partiions? | 16:35 |
| skay_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem consistency availablity partiion tolerenace | 16:35 |
| tpb | Title: CAP theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org) | 16:35 |
| iiie | eventual consistency would require video replacement (re-encode and upload) for any changes that changed the encoded video. | 16:35 |
| CarlFK | lets take this case: presenter is missing when it is time to talk, so 10 seconds before start time organizer grabs someone else to talk about something else. | 16:36 |
| skay_ | iiie: yeah, so that's too hard | 16:36 |
| skay_ | iiie: at least for now | 16:36 |
| skay_ | iiie: I was asking carl how workable it would be to get cadre of volunteers helping with responses for reviewing videos — there's a s mall stream of emails that happen with "20 minutes in sound is weird" | 16:36 |
| CarlFK | I don't need the recording sheet updated - there is still the blanks to fill in start/end for that time slot and room | 16:36 |
| skay_ | or "change the opening screen" | 16:36 |
| skay_ | but that would depend on raw files being around and accessible to volunteers etc | 16:37 |
| CarlFK | someone needs to be responsible for a) defining what the talk title is, and b) data entry it somewhere | 16:37 |
| skay_ | CarlFK: I think you could wingit with the talk title | 16:37 |
| skay_ | and eventually change it if someone complains | 16:38 |
| CarlFK | of course I could.. but I shouldn't | 16:38 |
| iiie | "delay - metadata crazy" flag(s) on a talk could catch some of that (from uploading at least) | 16:38 |
| skay_ | CarlFK: well, merging when you clobber veyepar data would be really annoying | 16:38 |
| CarlFK | changing it later case should be avoided | 16:38 |
| skay_ | that's not true, you want to update your data from changed conference data, you claim | 16:39 |
| CarlFK | for what I describe I would flag the talk as broken and not process till the new data was entered | 16:39 |
| skay_ | which means things will get clobbered and broken in your data | 16:39 |
| skay_ | Chris's talk isn't broken, but you are effectively holding it hostage | 16:39 |
| skay_ | through no fault of his own | 16:39 |
| CarlFK | (11:38:10 AM) skay_: and eventually change it if someone complains <- avoid that.. which implies it went public | 16:39 |
| skay_ | you could have uploaded it the same night | 16:39 |
| iiie | talk title / data entry could be easy; just a webform somewhere for submit new data for this talk (not overwriting, just an easy option to review and update) | 16:39 |
| skay_ | 1% of complaints and they will most likely be friendly? | 16:40 |
| skay_ | I don't see the problem. | 16:40 |
| skay_ | versus hold up 70% or all of the conference videos? | 16:40 |
| CarlFK | the problems is it is time consuming to make the change | 16:40 |
| skay_ | yeah but you are often getting paid | 16:40 |
| CarlFK | who said 70% ? | 16:40 |
| skay_ | I made up 70% | 16:41 |
| CarlFK | 1 talk out of 10 is only 10% | 16:41 |
| iiie | depending on the change we could make making the change to non-encoded videos much easier. | 16:41 |
| skay_ | I think like 1, 2, many, lots of lots of many | 16:41 |
| skay_ | s/70%/many | 16:41 |
| skay_ | where many is too much | 16:41 |
| * iiie just realized he has to be somewhere else | 16:41 | |
| skay_ | iiie: later! | 16:42 |
| CarlFK | iiie: the conference site likely has this easy data entry form you mentioned | 16:42 |
| skay_ | me too. | 16:42 |
| skay_ | I should be downstairs to get water | 16:42 |
| CarlFK | ill get water for you | 16:42 |
| CarlFK | less you need to walk | 16:42 |
| skay_ | no no no I will have an excuse to walk down the stairs | 16:42 |
| skay_ | change my environment for a few minutes | 16:42 |
| skay_ | it is fun | 16:42 |
| skay_ | except when it isn't | 16:42 |
| iiie | yes conference site should have that form; sorry to argue and run | 16:42 |
| skay_ | but that's usually when I'm depressed | 16:42 |
| skay_ | CarlFK: yeah if only conferences would give you all access to their data like that | 16:43 |
| skay_ | so I think one day maybe you c ould just say… let me provide the schedule data! I will do it all! | 16:43 |
| skay_ | then you get to be the lord and master of allt he data and metadata | 16:43 |
| skay_ | cut them out of the annoying loop | 16:43 |
| skay_ | and your volunteers will have google glass clones and can change the db on the fly | 16:43 |
| skay_ | or maybe just phones where they take pictures of the hand written recording sheets and then the google glass clones upload and sync the papers to teh right record | 16:44 |
| skay_ | ok water time | 16:44 |
| skay_ | http://xenia.media.mit.edu/~rhodes/Papers/wear-ra-personaltech/index.html | 16:44 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/-:CC> (at xenia.media.mit.edu) | 16:44 |
| skay_ | The wearable remembrance agent: a system for augmented memory | 16:44 |
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| mrissa | hello | 16:58 |
| CarlFK | hi mrissa | 16:59 |
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| skay_ | CarlFK: I updated the issue about internet archive with some helpful information I got from the emails and I also pointed out some headers that will be useful. https://github.com/CarlFK/veyepar/issues/23 | 17:21 |
| tpb | Title: internet archive material is uploaded in Community Texts · Issue #23 · CarlFK/veyepar · GitHub (at github.com) | 17:21 |
| skay_ | see the last comment | 17:21 |
| CarlFK | neat | 17:27 |
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| CarlFK | skay - did you want to try to code this into the uploader code? | 18:38 |
| CarlFK | I need to create a bucket for node.. wondering if I should leave that for later | 18:39 |
| CarlFK | can you take a shot at it now and I'll fix leftovers and take a shower | 18:40 |
| skay_ | CarlFK: I'm not sure I can get anything intelligent coded for you today. I was going to do it last night but was in such a depressive funk that I couldn't | 18:41 |
| skay_ | CarlFK: since you need a bucket for node quickly, I suggest making it by hand | 18:42 |
| skay_ | I'll give you teh command | 18:42 |
| CarlFK | that works | 18:42 |
| skay_ | I'm not hungry for leftovers, I ended up eating pita bread and now I am full | 18:42 |
| skay_ | but make sure you eat | 18:42 |
| CarlFK | can you make me a node bucket? | 18:42 |
| skay_ | btw, got even more helpful emails from the IA folks. also, they claim to want the dv files | 18:42 |
| CarlFK | pfft | 18:43 |
| skay_ | I told them I don' tknow about the logistics for that | 18:43 |
| CarlFK | yeah | 18:43 |
| skay_ | I asked if they had some place in chicago that someone could drop off harddrives at | 18:43 |
| CarlFK | also, I don't see the point in the DV | 18:43 |
| skay_ | I'm kind of curious | 18:43 |
| skay_ | yeah but they do, and they are smart, so... | 18:43 |
| skay_ | and they have big ideals that I abelieve in | 18:44 |
| CarlFK | are they smart enough to put the point in writing ? | 18:44 |
| CarlFK | psf failed on that part.. so I am suspicious | 18:44 |
| skay_ | I don't want to be in the middle of that email when it is between you and them instead of really between me and them | 18:44 |
| skay_ | I just wanted to mention that they'd like the dv files | 18:45 |
| skay_ | and they probably wouldn't do qustionable things like mail you a drobo | 18:45 |
| CarlFK | my guess is they think there is a 1:1 between dv and what I upload | 18:45 |
| skay_ | yeah, I was wondering that | 18:45 |
| CarlFK | if there was, that would make some sense | 18:45 |
| skay_ | but I'm not sure they care if it's different | 18:45 |
| skay_ | maybe they think the raw footage is worthwhile in itself | 18:46 |
| skay_ | anyway, I will think about the bucket now. but if work interrupts, I will do work | 18:46 |
| CarlFK | k, thaks | 18:46 |
| skay_ | you have a bucket! https://archive.org/details/nodepdx2013conference it is 'nodepdx2013conference' | 19:30 |
| tpb | Title: nodepdx2013conference : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive (at archive.org) | 19:30 |
| skay_ | here is what I did: | 19:31 |
| skay_ | headers = { | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-mediatype':'movies', | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-collection':'opensource_movies', | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-year':'2013', | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-subject':'node.js;conference', | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-licenseurl':'http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/', | 19:31 |
| skay_ | 'x-archive-meta-description':'The <a href=http://nodepdx.org/>nodepdx</a> 2013 conference' | 19:31 |
| skay_ | } | 19:31 |
| tpb | Title: NodePDX - An independent conference focused on JavaScript, held yearly in Portland, Oregon (at nodepdx.org) | 19:31 |
| skay_ | those are the headers I used. | 19:31 |
| skay_ | then let's say you get a connection like you normally do (you can see that in auth in archive_uploader.py) | 19:32 |
| skay_ | let's call that var conn for convenience sake | 19:32 |
| skay_ | conn.create_bucket('nodepdx2013conference', headers=headers) | 19:32 |
| skay_ | voila | 19:32 |
| skay_ | or viola | 19:32 |
| skay_ | or double bass | 19:32 |
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| skay_ | nodepdx2013conference | 21:19 |
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| skay_ | nodepdx2013conference | 21:22 |
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