Tuesday, 2010-10-12

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llnzbbl, maybe03:59
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llnzmorning all21:31
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llnzhi Ramblurr21:36
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Ramblurrwhere do implementations of rulesets live?21:42
RamblurrBrowsing the top level of gitweb nothing really stuck out21:42
Ramblurr:( are the demo servers not up?21:46
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llnzthe rulesets are in the servers21:48
llnzso tpserver-cpp has minisec, mtsec, rfts, risk, tae rulesets21:48
llnzand tpserver-py has minisec, tradesec, dronesec rulesets (iirc)21:48
Ramblurrllnz: thanks21:53
Ramblurrhttp://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Ideas_for_Programmers was last updated in April, is it still current?21:54
tpb<http://ln-s.net/1ZnB> (at www.thousandparsec.net)21:54
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llnzRamblurr: umm.. pretty much22:06
llnzcertainly discuss here or mailing list if you are interested in something22:07
Ramblurrsuer thing22:15
Ramblurrran into a buildsystem bug when configuring tpserver-cpp22:15
Ramblurrconfigure.ac requires mzscheme to be in /lib, but on my system it is in lib6422:15
Ramblurrworking up a patch22:15
llnzmzscheme it's very nice, i generally use guile22:17
Ramblurrwhat is it used for in the server?22:18
Ramblurrbleh, i hate autoconf/tools22:18
llnzgrr... s/it's/isn't/22:19
llnzmzscheme and guile are both scheme implementations22:20
llnzscheme is used by the protocol to specify properties of components in designs22:20
Ramblurrwhat is scheme used for inside the server?22:20
Ramblurrinstalled guile, bypassed the bug22:23
Ramblurrllnz: so something I don't quite understand is how the rulesets interact with the client22:25
llnzthe protocol tells the clients everything they need to know22:26
Ramblurrpresumably each ruleset will require various modifications to the GUI, adding actions, list views, etc22:26
llnzso the ruleset tells the server what orders are available, etc and the server sends them by the protocol to the clients22:26
Ramblurrneato connected to a local server22:53
Ramblurrusing quickstart-minisec.conf22:53
Ramblurrseems all the other confs fail22:53
verhoevenvHmm. Risk should work. Well, the others too obviously but we haven't tested them in a while.22:54
Ramblurri'm using git versions of the client and tpserver-cpp22:55
Ramblurrer git versio of tpclient-pywx22:56
Ramblurrverhoevenv: where is development concetrated at the moment?22:59
verhoevenvLast thing we really focused on was getting most of the bugs out of minisec.23:00
verhoevenv(and the client and server in relation to minisec)23:00
verhoevenvNext for me is some polish to the AI, though not sure that's a really high-priority thing.23:02
Ramblurri noticed the ruleset book is under obsolete in the git repo23:03
verhoevenvEh, might be. Documentation is kind of a problem sometimes.23:04
RamblurrAha. Rulesets are actually plugins that contain code for running the game23:08
Ramblurrby "ruleset" I was thinking they were a distillation of a game into some sort of specification23:09
verhoevenvRamblurr: are you interested in making a new ruleset?23:10
Ramblurrverhoevenv: so what is blocking the development of complex mature rulesets?23:11
Ramblurrverhoevenv: indeed, though I am also interested in TP as a framework in general23:11
RamblurrIs the protocol still under development?23:11
verhoevenvThere are a few fairly complex rulesets out already, but there are a few problems in development.23:12
verhoevenvFirst, yeah, the protocol is not finished yet.23:12
verhoevenvNo support for diplomacy or research to name two things.23:12
verhoevenvProbably other things missing.23:12
Ramblurri haven't figured out how to create a playable user on my server hah23:12
verhoevenvSecond, lack of playtesting or players in general.23:13
Ramblurrbut are the orders typed in by hand?23:13
verhoevenvNo, the GUI is mouse-driven.23:13
verhoevenvSome shortcuts obviously.23:13
verhoevenvThen again, it depends on clients.23:13
verhoevenvWe also have a 3D client in pyogre.23:13
verhoevenvAnd a text client that probably doesn't work anymore.23:13
verhoevenvYou should be able to simply create a new user when you log in as a nonexisting user.23:14
Ramblurrare diplomacy and research aspects that need to be supported by the protocol?23:14
verhoevenvI think password is mandatory too.23:14
Ramblurror is the protocol more generic ?23:14
verhoevenvI'm not entirely certain on that. The latest versions are getting pretty generic.23:15
verhoevenvIt might be possible to hack some kind of research in there with what exists.23:15
Ramblurrideally it seems that should be a ruleset issue23:15
verhoevenvDiplomacy seems more fundamental though, since it handles relations between players.23:16
verhoevenvYou can't do that with objects on the board etc.23:16
verhoevenvThe 'problem' mainly is that the client has nothing but the protocol to base itself on.23:16
Ramblurrmust Objects be on the board?23:16
Ramblurrcouldn't an object be something abstract as "As diplomatic status towards B"23:17
verhoevenvWell, objects are things that are on the board by definition.23:17
verhoevenvThey have a location, a velocity, that kind of things.23:17
verhoevenv(I think they're called objects anyway)23:17
verhoevenvI don't really know everything about the fine points of the protocol though, I just use the library they give me. :P23:18
Ramblurrare you working on a rulset?23:19
Ramblurroh, you mentioned AI clients23:19
verhoevenvYeah, it's basically all I know about.23:20
verhoevenvSome general things about the other parts maybe.23:20
verhoevenvRamblurr: llnz knows most about the C++ server, so he might be able to help you more with the protocol and ruleset questions.23:22
Ramblurrllnz: wb23:24
Ramblurrllnz: how is TP04 development coming along?23:30
llnzresearch and diplomacy will be added sometime23:31
llnzotherwise it's stable and not a moving target for development23:31
Ramblurrjust saw that the "LCA08 Dev Meeting" article on the wiki says diplomacy is aimed for TP0523:31
Ramblurrhas tp04 been implemented yet?23:32
llnzyes, TP04 is the protocol we are actively using23:32
Ramblurrah, but research didn't make it in?23:33
llnzresearch and diplomancy will be added to it23:33
llnzit won't affect anything already there23:33
Ramblurri see23:34
RamblurrI come from a KDE/Qt/C++ background, so I could easily work on the Parsek client23:41
Ramblurrespecially considering it hasn't received any love in a couple years23:41
Ramblurrbut I would rather contribute to something more crucial to TP23:41
llnzthe latest parsek changes haven't been in tp's git repo23:53
llnzfirst it was in tp, then KDE's svn, now it's on github23:53
llnza google summer of code student was working on it this year23:53
llnzvery bit helps23:54
Ramblurrthat explains it, i was only looking at kde svn and tp's git23:55
RamblurrI saw his 2010 proposal23:56
Ramblurrwas it successful?23:56
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