Tuesday, 2011-04-05

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SeriousWormhello, your site doesn't work with opera03:55
SeriousWormI've just painfully completed the GSOC signup form after disabling CSS and fixing about 20 different errors, which I had to manually hunt down via source code ..03:56
SeriousWormfor example the signup form doesn't allow periods (.) in the address field, so for example Ul. br. Ivancic (St. of the Ivanic brothers or similar..) isn't accepted03:57
SeriousWormbasically the signup form is some sort of IQ test?03:57
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leumasin the idea for GCI : "Better Google Code-in module", 'Queuing system for student claim requests' am I supposed to improve the queuing system or should I implement it starting from scratch?? pls help me04:07
leumasSRabbelier: pls help me :)04:11
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leumascan ne1 help me??05:06
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dol-senI think I found a bug in the scoring05:43
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dol-senIf you hit the remove score button for a proposal that you haven't added a score yet, it still changes the score/average05:52
dol-senfortunately, in my case it was a spam proposal anyway05:52
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leumashelp with the queuing system in GCI05:56
leumasdo I need to implement the queues or should I need to improve the already existing ones?05:56
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leumasguys! pls help me!!05:57
hypatialeumas: you should ask the project06:03
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leumas_hypatia: and where can I find it?06:06
leumas_i mean, how should I contact them?06:06
hypatialeumas_: which project is it?06:10
leumas_the melange one: building a better GCI module06:11
hypatiai see... my apologies then, you're in the right place :)06:14
hypatiajust be a bit patient, leumas_ - they may be asleep06:14
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leumasthanx for the advice hypatia!07:35
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antimatroidthrain42: are you about?10:26
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leumasneed help with the queuing system in GCI10:52
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leumasnebody awake ?12:20
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leumasneed help with the queuing system in GCI, pls ne1??12:29
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kaiSRabbelier|Lappy: can you take my co-admin off the notifications list on gsoc.appspot.com? :)13:11
kaihi, btw :)13:11
SRabbelier|Lappykai: no13:13
SRabbelier|Lappykai: he should do that himself :P13:13
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gevaertskai: you can send an email to SRabbelier|Lappy with the From: set to the co-admin's email address and ask to change the google account the link_id is connected to :)13:30
kaihm, I could even send it from the correct server ;)13:31
* SRabbelier|Lappy chortles13:31
SRabbelier|Lappygevaerts: I don't do that kind of fixes for gsoc.appspot.com though13:32
SRabbelier|Lappygevaerts: I just tell people to register a new account :P13:32
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thrain42antimatroid: I'm always idling, sometimes at the screen, but for melange I'm not much help most of the time13:42
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SRabbelier|Lappysomeoene tell leumas to mail the mailing list when he drops in next time13:43
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: what's up with thrain42?13:43
durin42SRabbelier|Lappy: when my connection flaps, I become thrain4213:46
durin42durin42 durin42_ thrain42 thorin42 thrain42_ and samwise_gamgee are all mine.13:47
SRabbelier|Lappysamwise_gamgee, really? hhah :D13:47
durin42I hope you detect my theme.13:47
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SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: indeed13:48
durin42I'm curious why my connection dropped though.13:49
durin42My monitoring didn't catch even so much as a high latency window.13:49
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: you seem to be missing Telchar42 though13:49
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SRabbelier|Lappyhehe :)13:50
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SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: how about thror42?13:50
SRabbelier|Lappyheheh :P13:51
durin42At some point it just gets absurd.13:51
durin42telchar is obscure enough to be worth keeping.13:51
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Middle-earth_Dwarves#Thr.C3.A1in_II13:51
tpbTitle: List of Middle-earth Dwarves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)13:51
durin42I didn't need that.13:51
durin42BTW, my monitoring software for the house I call mazarbul.13:52
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: your house has monitoring software?13:52
durin42Right now it's just monitoring network things13:52
SRabbelier|Lappyah :)13:53
SRabbelier|Lappyfair enough then13:53
durin42but I do want to get a microcontroller in the garage so it can fire an alert if the garage door is open too long, or similar.13:53
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: make one for the fridge :P13:53
durin42that sounds like actual hard work13:53
durin42and not so valuable13:53
durin42Totally unrelated, I need to pick your brain at some point about .gitignore.13:54
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: again? :)13:54
durin42not the index.13:55
durin42I've got a hacky workaround for my index woes for now.13:55
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: I thought you already did that too :P13:56
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: but feel free13:56
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durin42No, I started ignore support last night13:57
durin42mostly, I'm curious how foo/.gitignore alters things13:57
durin42(in hg we only have the top-level hgignore file)13:57
durin42If there's a *.pyc in foo/.gitignore, will that ignore bar/foo.pyc?13:58
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: you mean order of preference?13:58
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: no, ofc not :)13:58
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durin42No, I'm going to be compiling them all down to a single regexp before any ignoring action happens13:58
durin42(Well, actually I'm going to consolidate things down to a set of rules I emit into hg's ignore machinery, which does the regexp conversion for me)13:59
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: then you should probably be fine with prefixing the values with an anchored directory name13:59
durin42Yeah, something like that.13:59
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: so "*.pyc" in foo/.gitignore turns in to "/foo/*.pyc"13:59
durin42That's what I was planning on13:59
durin42Ah, not quite.13:59
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: assuming that also ignores /foo/bar/*.pyc13:59
durin42foo/.gitignore's *.pyc needs to be something like re:^foo.*/.*\.pyc14:00
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: that should work14:00
durin42I've got top-level .gitignores working though14:00
SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: neat14:00
durin42and I'm just building out features as I need them14:00
durin42I'm lazy and don't want to write the directory-walking code yet.14:00
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SRabbelier|Lappydurin42: heheh, you lazy dog ;)14:01
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durin42The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.  See the Camel Book for why.14:01
durin42-- perl(1)14:01
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praveen97uma<@SRabbelier> Hi Sverre !15:06
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praveen97umaSRabbelier : we require more number of tests to be written for SoC framework and not specifically for gsoc modules15:09
leumasSRabbelier: can you please tell me where I can find these 'mailing lists' ?15:10
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: the melange mailing list?15:12
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: yeah!15:12
SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: I'm nost ure I understand what you said15:12
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: did you check our wiki?15:13
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: yes, but I didn't find any15:13
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: can you pls give me the link?15:13
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: no15:14
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: if you can't find our mailing list from http://code.google.com/p/soc/w/list then I can't help you either15:14
tpbTitle: Wiki Pages - soc - SoC (Spice of Creation) - Google Project Hosting (at code.google.com)15:14
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: okay..15:14
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: we expect a certain degree of self-sufficiency from our students15:14
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: I get it ..15:15
SRabbelier|Lappyleumas: I thought you might15:15
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: ya and I just got it!15:16
leumasSRabbelier|Lappy: thanx :)15:17
praveen97umaSRabbelier: regarding the project on testing .. we need more number of tests for the SoC framework so that we can do TDD.. but i have observed most of the development is being  done for gsoc modules ..15:20
praveen97umaSRabbelier: I compared the number of tests and the number of modules in the corresponding folders and found that the tests for a significant number of modules yet have to be written for SoC framework15:21
praveen97umaSRabbelier : You have added a number of tests for testing the gsoc modules15:22
praveen97umaso i was in a doubt if the focus of the project is on writing the tests for gsoc modules or the fundamental modules of the SoC framework15:24
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SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: have you seen the tests in tests/new_views?15:31
SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: they should cover most of the new views15:31
SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: also notice that everything in soc.{modules.gsoc,modules.gci}.{logic,views}.models will be removed15:32
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akashm1990Just noticed a minor bug(or maybe feature)15:34
akashm1990If you type in a proposal id, it will tell you if the proposal exists or not15:34
akashm1990even if you dont have accesss to that proposal15:34
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SRabbelier|Lappyakashm1990: that's fine15:36
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praveen97uma<@SRabbelier|Lappy> : Am I correct in figuring out from the code of modules in tests/new_views that the tests are for testing the new views for gsoc?15:52
SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: right15:53
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praveen97uma<@SRabbelier|Lappy> but the framework is aimed at enabling users to host programs like gsoc and gci, so is the aim of the gsoc project  to write tests for app.soc.logic and app.soc.views which are the fundamental part of gsoc and gci modules or testing the new gsoc views?16:02
SRabbelier|Lappypraveen97uma: GSoC testing should focus on soc.modules.gsoc.views, but should of course also test things from soc.views if they are used in soc.modules.gsoc.views16:05
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* SRabbelier|Lappy is going home16:05
SRabbelier|Lappywill bbs16:06
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* SRabbelier1 is back home16:51
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betaVersionhi everyone, i have posted my idea at the following link, please send your feedback and suggestions : http://groups.google.com/group/melange-soc/browse_thread/thread/55e0925fc08c735d18:04
tpb<http://ln-s.net/8hrq> (at groups.google.com)18:04
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SRabbelierkmmurphy: what's the World Health Organization got to do with anything?19:21
kmmurphyha sorry, I was trying to get a list of people logged on currently19:22
kmmurphyI've never used IRC before19:22
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kmmurphyI know it's a little late in the game, but I'm interested in the testing, and code quality assurance project, I was wondering how detailed the estimated timeline should be?19:35
SRabbelierkmmurphy: week scale I think19:38
kmmurphyOk, thank you!19:45
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gevaertsdhaun: in this case I'm not sure if a different name for the field would help...20:45
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dhaungevaerts: :P20:45
SRabbelierbeware the troll20:45
dhaunI don't think he's a troll - maybe not GSoC material, though20:45
gevaertsAccidental trolls can be the most tenacious though20:46
|Kev|I think it should stay as it is.20:46
|Kev|It's clearly a competence test that'll save time for mentors.20:47
* gevaerts bets that it's a URL again20:53
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LetterRipSRabbelier: a potential issue with the current scoring tools is that a worse proposal with many scorers, can beat a good proposal with fewer scorers - ie bad proposal gets 5 1 scores, good proposal gets 1 4 score20:55
SRabbelierLetterRip: we'll add averages to the dashboard thingy too20:56
|Kev|Yes, all-positive summation is completely broken, known issue :)20:56
LetterRipmight be good to allow weighting20:56
LetterRipie our admins we want more weight20:56
SRabbelierLetterRip: patches welcome for that? :)20:56
LetterRipSRabbelier: heh20:56
|Kev|Simply changing from totals to averages fixes most ills.20:56
|Kev|If you want your admins to have more weight, you can tell mentors to only vote 1..3, and let admins vote 1..5 :)20:57
SRabbelier|Kev|: ack20:57
LetterRipthe problem with patches is that unless you are a heavy regular user - the marginal cost of figuring it out usually greatly exceeds ones marginal benefit20:57
|Kev|SRabbelier: You saw the numbers I ran a few nights ago on this, right?20:57
SRabbelier|Kev|: did not I don't think?20:57
SRabbelierLetterRip: true :)20:58
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SRabbelierLetterRip: imagine what it's like to be a voluntary contributor ;)20:58
|Kev|Oh, I wrote a short script to treat various student scores under different models.20:58
|Kev|Showed that you can get an almost equivalent model to the one KDE used last year, this year, if averages are the mean measure, and that summation is completely broken.20:58
|Kev|Let me find the scripts20:59
|Kev|Seems it was late Friday night.21:00
tpb<http://ln-s.net/8grq> (at astyanax.doomsong.co.uk)21:00
tpb<http://ln-s.net/8grr> (at astyanax.doomsong.co.uk)21:00
|Kev|So, the idea there is that KDE last year used three votes, -1, 0 and +121:01
|Kev|For negative, meh and positive.21:01
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|Kev|So there you go, now you've seen the pretty numbers too :)21:05
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LetterRipi prefer a -5 to +5 range myself21:08
LetterRipeasier to diffentiate between meh and bad proposals21:09
LetterRipand to reduce overrated proposals21:09
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|Kev|LetterRip: Yes, I think the numbers show that allowing negative scores is the best approach, but my understanding was that the design agency that'd prettified Melange had decided that negative scores couldn't be used?21:14
LetterRipwell design agencies are used for suggestions, not final decision making :)21:15
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|Kev|At the end of it, as long as averages are used rather than totals, a not-too-terrible approximation can be made.21:16
SRabbelierLetterRip: that is true21:16
SRabbelierThe reason we haven't used it is that it's less intiuitive21:17
SRabbelierAnd FTR21:17
SRabbelierEchoDitto doesn't dictate what the ydo21:17
SRabbelierthey suggest things, and if we agree, we implement them :)21:17
SRabbelierjust as they suggested we drop negative scores due to it being unitntuitive, and we agreed21:18
|Kev|I stand corrected.21:18
gevaertsBut now people complain that the lack of negative scores is unintuitive :)21:18
|Kev|gevaerts: Not unintuitive, unexpressive, I think.21:19
gevaerts|Kev|: well yes, but that didn't sound as good21:19
|Kev|1-5 Stars is certainly more intuitive to vote with, it just doesn't provide the same sort of ability to score.21:19
SRabbelier|Kev|: yes, but it's easier to interpret the results :)21:20
SRabbelier|Kev|: a 0 score could mean two people voted -5 and 5 in the old system21:20
|Kev|Sure, and a 3 score could mean two people voted 1 and 5 in the new system :)21:20
|Kev|It's easier to interpret the results with 1-5 stars, because there's less scope for expression.21:21
|Kev|I'm not arguing that you should drop the 1-5 star system and go back to negatives, it's a trade-off that you've decided to make, and I think it's possible to live with it.21:22
SRabbelier|Kev|: fair point21:23
|Kev|The numbers were at the time to try and come up with a system for Nightrose so that KDE could meaningfully use the system, and in the process it showed what I'd been previously been claiming, that totals are meaningless and that either the individual scores or the averages are what matters.21:23
* SRabbelier nods21:24
SRabbelier|Kev|: will make adding averages to the dashboard a priority then21:24
|Kev|Thanks very much :)21:25
* gevaerts hails SRabbelier's average work!21:25
|Kev|I note that it *is* possible to use the old KDE system, with 1, 0, 3, to get exactly the same output they had before but it requires a lot of post-processing of the results.21:26
* SRabbelier nods21:26
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|Kev|(You know the totals, and you know the number of votes, so it seems to me off the top of my head that subtracting votecount * -2 from the total should convert to the old negative/positive votesystem.21:27
|Kev|I haven't run those numbers to check I'm not being stupid, though)21:27
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Moulthello folks, I accidentally sent in an application as a mentor as I didn't see the register as a student link, and now my google account is blocked from resigning up as a student. ideas?21:31
gevaertsMoult: talk to SRabbelier21:32
MoultSRabbelier: ping21:32
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SRabbelierMoult: hi21:33
MoultSRabbelier: ^ see above21:33
SRabbelier!learn fix as Send me an email from the account you are registered with on the site, with your link_id, and your desired status change. My email is my nick at gmail.21:33
socinfoSRabbelier: The operation succeeded.21:33
socinfoSRabbelier: "fix" is Send me an email from the account you are registered with on the site, with your link_id, and your desired status change. My email is my nick at gmail.21:34
SRabbelierMoult: ^21:34
LetterRip|Kev|: yes it is trivial interconversion21:34
gevaertsSRabbelier: "my nick at gmail" said by socinfo could be interpreted wrongly I guess21:34
LetterRipbut some folks prefer differnt interfaces21:34
SRabbeliergevaerts: fair point21:34
LetterRipyou can get from one sceme to almost anny others with simple linear transforms21:35
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LetterRipmight be useful to just provide an interface for the admin21:35
LetterRipto choose the visual representation and algorithm21:36
LetterRipthen it doesn't matter21:36
LetterRipthen you can default to the current21:36
LetterRipand store it the same21:36
LetterRipbut display and interact based on the admin prefs21:36
MoultSRabbelier: sent :)21:36
SRabbeliergevaerts: he figured it out though21:36
|Kev|LetterRip: Oh, no, there are lots of schemes you can't convert between :)21:36
|Kev|It just happens that KDE's old scheme conveniently can.21:37
LetterRipalmost all of the schemes suggested can be trivially interconverted except for mutlitple voting21:37
LetterRipeven that can21:37
LetterRipby allowing a bigger range21:37
LetterRipso if i vote 10 -5s for a proposal that is the same as -5021:38
gevaertsLetterRip: it can't do schulze-condorcet :)21:38
LetterRipthen you can rescale that to your zero point21:38
LetterRipgevaerts: hence 'almost all'21:38
gevaertsSRabbelier: yes, well, maybe I'm getting too cynical these days...21:39
SRabbeliergevaerts: possibly21:39
SRabbeliergevaerts: what's that anyway?21:39
LetterRipoh well not a huge deal21:39
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LetterRipcan work with whatever and make it work21:39
MoultSRabbelier: how will i know when my status has been changed?21:43
SRabbelierMoult: you'll be able to register again21:44
SRabbelierMoult: I'm just deleting your profile21:44
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LetterRipSRabbelier: btw just wanted to thank you and the rest of the team for all the hardwork you guys put into this21:58
SRabbelierLetterRip: thanks so much ^__^21:58
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orcunaSRabbelier: Heyy , did you have time for looking my patch?23:51
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orcunaSRabbelier: Heyy , did you have time for looking my patch?23:55

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