Saturday, 2010-11-06

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ThomasWaldmannSRabbelier: strange inconsistencies00:06
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: where?00:07
ThomasWaldmanni have 2 notifications. ronny and reimar want to become mentors.00:07
ThomasWaldmannif i follow the link, it only offers to withdraw00:08
ThomasWaldmannthere is also the explanation that this might mean they were already accepted by some other admin00:08
ThomasWaldmannwhich is likely the case00:08
ThomasWaldmannso far so good (just slightly strange)00:08
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: ah, okay00:09
ThomasWaldmannBUT, i don't see them in the mentor list.00:09
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: that's because they haven't accepted yet00:09
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: s/accepted/filled in their profile/00:09
ThomasWaldmannah, ok00:09
ThomasWaldmannyeah, one more now, reimar has just submitted it00:10
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: all is well?00:11
SRabbelieralso, did dreimark get in touch with you?00:11
ThomasWaldmannyes, i think so. just the invisible internal state is a bit strange.00:11
ThomasWaldmannyes, no problem.00:11
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: you should see him under requests00:13
ThomasWaldmannno unhandled invites or pending requests00:14
ThomasWaldmannah, under org requests00:14
ThomasWaldmannok, there ronny is00:14
ThomasWaldmannSRabbelier: about . and - is that a bug and will get fixed or will it stay like that?00:16
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: . and -?00:16
ThomasWaldmann(street and city form field validators)00:16
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: it's required by Google shipping I'm afraid00:17
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: although it looks like we could accept dashes00:17
ThomasWaldmannit showed my correct address (because of previous soc participation)00:17
ThomasWaldmannbut i could not post it "as is", because it dislike "Pleidelsheimer Str. 25" as street00:18
ThomasWaldmannand "Bietigheim-Bissingen" as city00:18
ThomasWaldmannwhich both is 100% correct IRL00:18
ThomasWaldmannso i removed the . and the - to make the validator happy (and the address slightly incorrect)00:19
tpb<> (at
ThomasWaldmann(i can understand there is lots of american software having troubles with non-ascii stuff, but . and - is pretty basic ascii :)00:22
ThomasWaldmannreminds me a little of johnny "tables" smith :D00:25
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: as you can see though, I could add the - back00:26
* ThomasWaldmann wonders how it worked with . for SOC :)00:27
ThomasWaldmannbtw, when first seeing tpb here, i wondered how the pirate bay is related to melange :D00:29
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: last year all those "bad characters" were stripped out 'manually'00:30
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: yeah, no fun00:31
ThomasWaldmannhmm, did i miss the number somewhere or is there no specific amount of tasks stated that orgs should create?00:42
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: Suggested is to have 50 in your list when applying, and to have about 100 ready before the program starts00:45
ThomasWaldmannah, sounds familiar00:47
ThomasWaldmann(and lots to do...)00:47
ThomasWaldmannbtw, when checking the other orgs task pages, i have seen that some have different difficulty labels, time measurements etc.00:52
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: what do you mean?00:53
ThomasWaldmanndays vs. hours, different words for easy/medium/hard00:58
ThomasWaldmann(i mean their wiki pages, or other collections, not in melange)00:59
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: oooooooh01:15
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: Melange will equalize that :)01:15
ThomasWaldmannbtw, i only saw an hours field in csv01:21
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: correct01:22
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: that is the expected format01:22
ThomasWaldmannthe "should be finished within X days" is in the description then?01:22
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: nope01:22
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: it says hours01:22
ThomasWaldmanni mean the "due date"01:23
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: it's a datetime01:24
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: it's due at a specific time on a specific day01:24
* ThomasWaldmann confused01:25
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: by what part?01:26
ThomasWaldmanni expected that hours field (int) to be how much work hours the task is expected to take01:26
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: it is01:26
ThomasWaldmannbut we also shall set some due date, but there is no csv field for that, right?01:27
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: and then once the task is assigned to the student, they have that many hours from the moment it is assigned to them01:27
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: no?01:27
ThomasWaldmannso if i tell it takes 10h, they have to deliver 10h later? :)01:27
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: yup01:28
ThomasWaldmannthey are expected to not sleep or do other stuff?01:28
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: so take the fact that they need to sleep in consideration when setting your expected duration01:28
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: ninja-ed :P01:28
* ThomasWaldmann bets that will cause lots of confusion01:28
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: Can you ask Carol to clarify that somehow? I think you raise a valid point.01:29
ThomasWaldmannthere should be some ratio01:30
ThomasWaldmann(if we don't have 2 different values)01:30
ThomasWaldmanne.g. students are expected to work 2h/d01:30
ThomasWaldmannso a 10h work time task is due in 5d01:30
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: I think instead the mentors will be expected to set the work time as such01:31
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: but, yes, some explanation is needed01:31
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ThomasWaldmannsent, to the ml01:49
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pipesmokeri changed my email addy of my google account10:05
pipesmokernow my google open source user profile has gone10:05
pipesmokercan anybody help me with this?10:05
dhaunpipesmoker: that requires manual intervention by the Melange admins, but they're probably not online right now10:09
pipesmokerdhaun: thanks for your reply, i will ask later again then10:10
dhaunthat, or you could try
tpbTitle: melange-soc | Google Groups (at
pipesmokerdhaun: even better, thx10:11
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ThomasWaldmannis the rendering width for the task titles already known?13:00
ThomasWaldmannin the table of tasks i see as org admin, i can see about the first 21 chars of the task title.13:01
ThomasWaldmannwill that be the same sort of presentation the students will see to choose tasks from?13:01
ThomasWaldmannsome hint about what task title length makes sense would be useful13:01
ThomasWaldmannhow can a task be deleted?13:05
ThomasWaldmannah, nevermind, i expected that to be possible from the task list, but you first have to click on the task to see/edit it and then there is a delete button at the bottom of it13:09
ThomasWaldmannand there is also a "public view" link which answers my question for width, looks like there the full screen width minus the leftsidebar is used13:11
ThomasWaldmannand it uses multiple lines if the title is longer than that13:12
ThomasWaldmannso it looks like title length could be rather long, but it might be hard to see it in the admin list if first 21 chars are same for multiple tasks13:13
dreimarkin melange demo a student sees: Title. org, Difficulty, Points, Type, Time of Complete, Status and Mentors13:28
dreimarkthat makes it difficult for newcomers to figure out what tasks fit their skills13:28
dreimarkat least an info about which skills are required makes it much easier to select tasks13:29
dreimarkSRabbelier: ^^^13:30
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SRabbelierdreimark: hi13:37
dreimarkSRabbelier: please read backlog from thomas and me13:37
tpb<$> (at
tpb<> (at
ThomasWaldmannah, moin SRabbelier13:38
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: are those links sufficient?13:39
ThomasWaldmannah, yes, clearer now13:40
SRabbelierdreimark: What can we do to make that easier then?13:41
ThomasWaldmanncould the column width get optimized still?13:41
dreimarkwe need a column which shows minimum requirement. e.g. mentors lists needs python, css, html13:41
ThomasWaldmannlike title getting broader, some other columns narrower13:41
ThomasWaldmann"points" is for what exactly?13:42
dreimarkcurrently opening every task to find out skill does not fit needs avoided13:42
ThomasWaldmannthe custom tags maybe should get displayed13:43
ThomasWaldmannwe could use it for something like "python,javascript" if the task requires python and js skills13:43
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: there's no easy way to resize the columns, I don't think13:43
SRabbelierdreimark: what do you mean with "mentors lists needs python, css, html"?13:44
dreimarkSRabbelier: we can use tags13:44
dreimarkif you have coding tasks you need to know in which language13:45
ThomasWaldmannor for doc or i18n tasks, there might be some specific tools involved13:45
ThomasWaldmannso skills could make tags13:46
* SRabbelier nods13:46
SRabbelierthe tags need to be displayed13:46
ThomasWaldmannthat points column looks strange, doesn't the student get same amount of points for any task he completes?13:46
ThomasWaldmannif so, why is that column useful? :)13:47
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: no, they do not.13:47
dhaunharder tasks get more points, I think13:47
* dreimark disagrees13:48
dreimarkbecause it is not easy to define easy and also not hard13:48
dreimarkand I want to avoid to define tasks which likly can't be solved13:48
dreimarkand this is the only way to be fair on each project13:49
ThomasWaldmannwell, sure it might be not easy to define beforehands, but still there will be some obviously harder tasks and some obviously easier13:49
SRabbelierThat's just the rules of the game.13:50
ThomasWaldmannbut effort = hardness * duration * quality is also to be considered13:50
dreimarkit makes more sense if the column is hidden13:50
SRabbelierdreimark: no13:50
SRabbelierWe want the younger students to be able to finish 15 tasks and get the full payment13:50
SRabbelierBut we also want the more competative students to be able to win13:50
SRabbelierTo do that we have the three task levels13:51
SRabbelierEasy tasks get 1 point, Medium tasks get 2 points, Hard tasks get 4 points.13:51
ThomasWaldmannSRabbelier: could the 2 columns then get merged?13:51
ThomasWaldmannlike Difficulty (Points you get) -> Hard (4)13:52
ThomasWaldmanni mean if there is an equivalence relation....13:52
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: that means you can't sort by points though13:52
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: or filter by difficulty13:52
ThomasWaldmannthen use Points (Difficulty) -> 4 (Hard), that sorts13:53
ThomasWaldmannwe could have negative points for stupid stuff :DD13:54
dreimarkthe problem with that idea is that the price is very good. so a student who knows he can do 20 easy tasks in the time of one hard task he will do all easy tasks13:54
ThomasWaldmannhe doesn't know before doing13:54
SRabbelierdreimark: that's fine13:55
dreimarkwell he knows because we tell the difficults13:55
ThomasWaldmannif even we can't easily estimate time needed, the student can't anyway13:55
SRabbelierdreimark: it's a competition13:55
dreimarkThomasWaldmann: that's what i am saying we can clarify each task as easy or hard13:56
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: but, yes, I'll change it to Points (difficulty)13:56
ThomasWaldmannbtw, the mouseover tooltip for that "duration hours" value somehow hints that this clock hours until delivery is expected13:57
dreimarkif we choose easy it is unfair if it is compared to others hard13:57
dreimarkand if we set hard students can get more points as on other ideas13:57
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: that's because that's exacltly what it is...13:58
SRabbelierdreimark: it doesn't have to be perfectly fair13:58
SRabbelierdreimark: life is'nt fair14:00
ThomasWaldmannyou will never be 100% correct for such hard-to-estimate stuff14:00
ThomasWaldmannSRabbelier: just not sure if everybody is aware of that14:00
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: Tag onto your earlier mail and ask for clarification on that too.14:00
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: Carol gets back next Monday.14:00
ThomasWaldmannmaybe should be called ETA :-) (or ETD, Expected Time of Delivery?)14:00
ThomasWaldmannbut still, scaling work hours to ETA days should be on a common basis14:01
ThomasWaldmannSRabbelier: can you make a mouseover for the time to complete value?14:02
SRabbelierThomasWaldmann: what do you mean?14:03
ThomasWaldmanntelling something like "if you claim now, you have to complete YYYY:MM:DD HH:MM"14:03
ThomasWaldmannthat would make it as clear as it gets on the student side14:04
ThomasWaldmannmaybe s/now/$NOW/14:06
ThomasWaldmannjust to avoid caching / outdated content issues14:06
* ThomasWaldmann brb14:08
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SRabbelierThomasWaldmann, dreimark:
tpb<$> (at
tpb<> (at
ThomasWaldmannnice :)15:45
dreimarkSRabbelier: thx :)15:48
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j-bwhere could I report a bug/issue?21:00
tpbTitle: Issues - soc - Project Hosting on Google Code (at
j-bstill, melange for GCI does not allow hyphens or accents... Which worked fine on GSoC21:12
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Dark_Shikari"Invalid characters, only A-z, 0-9 and whitespace are allowed. "21:23
Dark_ShikariMy name is "Jason Garrett-Glaser".  Screw this horrific input validation =p21:23
Dark_Shikari(any chance on getting this fixed so I can be a mentor?)21:23
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dreimarkDark_Shikari: that was some days ago discussed21:49
dreimark:16 < ThomasWaldmann> SRabbelier: about . and - is that a bug and will get21:49
dreimark                        fixed or will it stay like that?21:49
dreimark01:16 <@SRabbelier> ThomasWaldmann: . and -?21:49
dreimark01:16 < ThomasWaldmann> (street and city form field validators)21:49
dreimark01:17 <@SRabbelier> ThomasWaldmann: it's required by Google shipping I'm afraid21:49
dreimark01:17 <@SRabbelier> ThomasWaldmann: although it looks like we could accept21:49
dreimark                    dashes21:49
dreimarkby now you have to use a dot21:49
Dark_Shikarithat's... really dumb...21:54
Dark_Shikariamazon seems to be able to ship to my name fine.21:54
Dark_Shikariwhat should I do then?21:54
ThomasWaldmannJason GarrettGlaser maybe?22:07
Dark_Shikariblegh, I guess.22:07
Dark_Shikarinow it displays my name wrong in melange22:07
ThomasWaldmannmaybe google should discontinue shipping services not being able to deal with - and . :D22:08
Dark_Shikarimelange doesn't like my name.22:12
Dark_Shikarioverzealous input validation22:12
Dark_Shikari"Melange: because Europeans, Asians, and hyphenated names don't exist."22:13
Lennieyou should blame the shipping and credit card companies for that22:14
Lenniethey can't print -22:14
Lenniefor instance22:14
Dark_ShikariEr, sure they can22:14
Dark_ShikariI buy from Amazon all the time, they handle it fine22:14
Lenniewell not the one google has a deal with then22:14
Dark_Shikarimy bank account and credit statements work fine22:14
Dark_ShikariLennie: and this means that google can't list my name correctly on an online web app that they wrote?22:15
Lenniethat's not what it means22:16
Dark_ShikariYes it is -- the web app lists my name wrong.22:17
Dark_Shikarimore specifically, there are three things on the form22:17
Dark_Shikarifirst name: "Jason"22:17
Dark_Shikarilast name: "GarrettGlaser" (wrong, because hyphen is missing"22:17
LennieGoogle didn't write the webapp22:17
Dark_ShikariFull name as on documents: "Jason Garrett-Glaser" (correct!)22:17
Lennieso your statment is therefore false22:17
Dark_ShikariBut the web app lists my name based on "first and "last", not "full".22:17
Lenniebecause we do not show the document name since it might be in chinese characters as well22:18
Dark_ShikariThat's exactly the reason you'd _want_ to show it22:18
Dark_Shikarito get their name correct.22:18
Lennieit's only the - that is bothering you right?22:21
Dark_Shikari(but I assume I'm not the only one who is annoyed with their name being wrong)22:21
LennieWell actually the - is okay but stuff like È isn't22:23
LennieLet me get that fixed22:23
Lennie(I really like how cryptic shipping people can be about their requirements it is an awesome puzzle)22:24
Dark_Shikarithey should just give you a validation regex ;)22:24
Lenniebut they don't know that :P22:24
Lennieand shipping requirements != Credit Card requirements22:25
Dark_Shikariwhere do we ask questions about GCI anyways?22:28
Dark_Shikari#gsoc seems dead-silent22:28
Lenniegsoc is the place to be22:28
Lennieas announced during the mentor summit22:28
Lennie"because people are already there"22:28
Lenniehyphen has been fixed22:29
Lennienext time a new version gets pushed (I'm guessing within 7 days) you should be able to use it :)22:29
Dark_ShikariYeah, but "Edit Profile" only has a single field I can edit22:29
Dark_Shikarithe fullname field22:30
Dark_Shikariwhich isn't used anywhere on the site22:30
Lennieyou mean /user/edit_profile22:30
LennieActually that name is used, for example when you comment on a task in GCI22:30
Lennieit is a public name for a reason22:30
LennieI'm guessing some other places inside orgs may use first+last22:31
Lenniebut maybe they shouldn't22:31
Lennieany examples?22:31
Dark_Shikariah, it's under Edit My Mentor Profile22:32
Dark_ShikariNot user/profile22:32
Lenniewhich field where you talking about22:32
Lenniename on documents?22:32
Dark_ShikariUser/Edit Profile had something else22:33
LennieThat's the name used if we need to send you a certificate or a visa letter22:33
Dark_ShikariName on documents: Jason Garrett-Glaser22:33
Dark_ShikariLast (family) name: GarrettGlaser22:33
LennieYou can use the - in a few days :)22:33
Dark_Shikariyup yup22:33
Dark_Shikariunder View All Tasks, my name is listed as "Jason Garrettglaser"22:34
Dark_Shikariunder Mentors22:34
Dark_Shikarihmm.  so in GCI, is it possible to have multiple people take a task at the same time?  the issue I'm seeing is that some tasks are inherently repeatable, and can be done by as many people as is reasonable22:35
Dark_Shikarie.g. if a task is "write an assembly function", obviously 5 people could go and write different ones.22:36
Dark_Shikaribut the interface seems to be designed to only allow one person to take each task...22:36
Lennieput in the task again22:37
Lenniewe decided not to make repeatable tasks this year22:37
Lenniebut it is on the radar22:37
Dark_Shikaribut what if multiple people want it at once?22:37
Lenniefirst come first serve22:38
Dark_Shikariso we have to watch the system the whole day and stick in new tasks when someone takes it.  yay =p22:38
Dark_Shikariwait.  wtf?22:42
Dark_Shikari"Property title is not multi-line "22:42
Dark_Shikariwhen submitting a task22:42
Dark_ShikariI have no idea what that means22:42
Lenniewhy not add multiple of the same tasks?22:42
Dark_Shikariwell, I can't add multiple until I can add one22:42
Dark_Shikariapparently that error message actually means the title is too long.22:47
Dark_Shikarilink to what?22:47
Lenniepage that fails22:47
tpb<> (at
Lennieis that message on the form22:48
Lennieor is it a 505?22:48
Dark_Shikariyes, message on the form22:48
Dark_Shikari"Property title is not multi-line"22:48
Dark_Shikariif my title is too long22:48
Dark_Shikari"too long" is not documented.22:48
LennieIt is not too long22:49
Lennieare you sure you didn't copy paste a trainling /n ?22:49
Dark_ShikariNo.  All I did to fix it was change the word "any" to "a"22:49
Dark_Shikarithus making it two chars shorter.22:49
Dark_ShikariHmm.  And now it lets me add it back.22:49
Dark_ShikariMaybe I had a newline in it somehow.22:49
Dark_ShikariWhy not just strip it?22:49
LennieAsk the appengine/django people I guess22:50
Dark_Shikarithat's an appengine error?22:51
Lenniewell the django form or whatever they use doesn't strip it22:51
Lennieand there is no too long for the title22:52
Lennieunless you really want to go longer then 500 :D22:52
Dark_Shikarichar buf[500];22:53
Lennienot really22:53
Lennieit is appengine's StringProperty22:53
Lenniewhich is 500 chars max22:53
Dark_Shikarichar buf[501] then22:55
Lennieit feels artificial to me as well22:56
Lennie    if not self.multiline and value and value.find('\n') != -1:22:58
Lennie      raise BadValueError('Property %s is not multi-line' %
Lennieinside appengine22:58
Lenniethere is a \n somewhere22:58
Dark_Shikariheh, makes sense22:59
Lennietbh 500 chars should be enough for your title22:59
Lennieyou know what I'm noticing22:59
Lenniethat validation method doesn't check the 500 char limit23:00
LennieIt is likely that it will 505 on you if  you try :D23:00
Dark_Shikarishould I write a buffer overflow exploit?23:00
Dark_Shikarimy very very long senten;DROP DATABASE23:00
Lennieluckily that doens't work :D23:02
Lennieit actually does 50523:04
Lenniewell, that's issue 4030 for AppEngine :)23:09
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