Friday, 2010-03-05

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kblinthere we go, all student proposals rated, mentors assigned... another job well done15:54
kblinnow I just hope they send regular status reports15:55
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adimaniahey Merio16:07
Merioheya adimania :)16:09
adimaniaYou wrote "exporting should be mediated by a "Melange" Google account". I didn't quite get that. can you please elaborate?16:10
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MerioI'm not sure, but to communicate with google docs/spreadsheet you might have the need to either have an account and make the documents published as public, or is the google account of the current logged user which is going to receive the document in the google docs account. Perhaps you can communicate with the API without registration and using only an API key as Google Maps, that I don't know16:12
adimaniaWell what i think is that the account of the logged user dhould do the work.16:14
MerioWithout having the user to go into the google account, just having a simply downloadable file as a result?16:15
adimaniaalso from what I have read about the spreadsheet api, it allows collaborative editing. this will be awesome feature for ideas. No, user has to login into his google account. that has to be a prerequisite.16:15
MerioCollaborative editing is possible also with Google Docs, however I think you've to go out from Melange interface and go to google docs, with maybe some communication between the two using javascript.16:17
adimaniaalso I would like to try integrating some social media features. Maybe a facebook/twitter publish button or something16:17
MerioAbout the login, yep, but the user is already logged in using the Google account, because is logged into Melange. Problem is, that the user has to change the "interface", I mean, go to Google doc site in another browser tab/window16:18
adimaniawell, can't we embed the docs/spreadsheet page into melange? afterall we can integrate html pages into another html page using frames.16:19
adimaniathis way the looks of melange will be preserved on the page with the sidebar and some other handy links and user will get the docs' features too16:20
Meriohmm TBH I don't like iframes too much ^_^ Also because we need only exportation features from an HTML (so something already parsed for the eventual markdown editor) to PDF/ODT/DOC... probably there are some Python libraries that do similar stuff16:22
adimaniayes, we can very well do exportation without google docs. We can use some pre-built libraries for exporting to odt/pdf/doc and in the export menu add an option for exporting to Google Docs. In this way we don't have to worry about the behaviour of docs and publishing to everyone. Once exported to Docs the user himself can do the needful to publish his/her document.16:27
MerioSounds sensible. :)16:29
Merio(provided that it's easy to integrate google docs api transparently)16:29
adimaniaWell that is something I have to explore. :) apart from this how about some social media stuff? maybe a "publish to facebook/twitter button" so that the user can spread his idea to a wider audience.16:33
MerioThat I like, do you mean something to publish the user's project proposal?16:34
adimaniayes.16:34
adimaniawe can do that with twitter/Facebook api16:34
Merioyep, that would make more sense to use also bit.ly API to shorten URLs, as you proposed in your mail16:35
MerioI got it wrong then, mixing the two things sounds now more sensible to me :)16:35
ErantI smell a lot of possibly security issues.16:36
Erantpossible*16:36
MerioErant please join :)16:36
ErantI'm not saying there are, I'm just foreseeing possible issues. The moment you start calling a lot of cross-site APIs, I dunno.16:37
adimaniaWell, from what I know facebook api as well as bit.ly api is used by a lot of huge organizations. apis must be secure. I just have to watch out for the way I implement16:38
ErantMelange has had its share of security issues, not sure you want to be opening up more holes, but rather try to get the situation under control and stabilize it. Just my 2cts.16:38
Erantadimania: If only it worked like that. MiFare was used by 80% of the RFID world. Cracked like a peanut.16:38
adimaniaI understand that there is probability of opening more holes and its not good for melange or for the users in general but I think at some point of time Melange will need the features I am suggesting. I'll try my best to watch out for the way of implementation.16:41
MerioErant: I think that's however a good idea to enhance Melange features, we might want to develop the stuff and not publish them until we fix other security issues16:42
MerioOr just... well.. take the idea and develop something with better priority and reserve that for the future16:42
ErantWell, sure. Might want to ask Lennie about his opinion.16:43
MerioYep, adimania, if you can then please open the discussion in your reply on the dev mailing list so everything can join16:44
adimaniaMerio: yes, we can develop it during this GSoC and publish it after we are done with the testing thoroughly.16:44
adimaniaYes I am going to put this on dev mailing list asap (keeping my fingers crossed :S )16:45
adimaniaMerio and Erant, do you think this can be a potential idea for GSoC?16:46
Merioadimania: well, actually the GSoC idea about the text editor is more than just exportation16:49
Merioadimania: or maybe I'm not getting something16:49
adimaniaI actually proposed this as an addon thing. The base will be making/replacing the existing editor. exporting will be implemented along with a new text deitor16:52
adimania*editor16:52
ErantDun' look at me, I have precious little to do with GSoC. I just break melange. :P16:53
MerioErant: ehehheh :D16:54
adimania:) Erant: you can help me with breaking apis too :D16:55
Merioadimania: oh sorry then. However it's more important that you dig into how and what are you going to do replacing the text editor (and if you're thinking about the versioning stuff and so on, see the project idea in the wiki) than details about exportation, which is great but low priority comparing to the other stuff involving the text editor. For your proposal it's important that the base is solid because (Erant knows....:P) doing HTML is a b16:57
adimaniaOkay. I got it. I will give more stress on trying to replace this editor with something new. I can pursue exporting thing side by side.16:59
MerioYep that's good. Please dig for example into the markitup editor/parser and/or creole parser (I didn't find any editor for it though), well... mostly everything that's already written in the wiki17:02
adimaniayes. I will do that. I have just posted the post regarding the security issues on dev list.17:04
Meriogreat :)17:05
adimaniaI will catch up with you here once I am done with some basic digging or on the mailing list. :) I should go, have a test tomorrow.17:07
MerioOk :) Best luck with the test then :)17:09
adimaniathanks :)17:10
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MatthewWilkeshi Melangers22:49
LennieHi Matthew22:49
LennieSverre is eagerly awaiting your reply on a patch :P22:49
Lennie"Why do we need to change this"22:49
* MatthewWilkes remembers now22:49
Lenniecool :)22:49
MatthewWilkesissue, not a patch22:49
Lennieyou did sent in a patch22:50
LennieI think it was buildout?22:50
MatthewWilkesOh, I didn't see a query about that22:51
MatthewWilkesThought it had been applied22:51
ErantLennie: Ohai.22:52
Lennieohai22:52
Lenniewassup?22:52
ErantNuttin'. See my other bugreport?22:52
ErantFrom a bit back22:52
Lennielink?22:52
Lennienumber22:52
Lenniewhich one :P22:52
ErantEuh... 742 or smth22:53
ErantLemme check22:53
ErantAh, yes, 742.22:54
Eranthttp://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=74222:54
tpb<http://ln-s.net/5+e8> (at code.google.com)22:54
ErantOh, you did.22:54
Erantnm22:54
MatthewWilkesLennie: Replied :)22:56
MatthewWilkesLennie: How're you, anyway?22:56
Lennieoverloaded with work22:57
Lenniebut in general life is good22:57
Lennie:)22:57
Lenniewhat have you been up to MatthewWilkes ?22:57
kblinLennie: then I'm happy I didn't file that feature request after all :)23:00
Lenniekblin: you can do that ;P23:00
Lennieif you also submit the patch for it :P23:00
kblinyeah, see, that's where the problems start23:00
Lennieanyhow requests are welcome23:00
MatthewWilkesLennie: Nothing much :)23:01
Lenniewe are doing as much as we can :023:01
Lenniebut small team :)23:01
Lennielots of code :P23:01
kblinI bet I still have to agree to pages full of legalese to be able to send a patch23:01
MatthewWilkeskblin: Naturally! ;)23:01
kblinLennie: actually I didn't file that feature request because I'm not sure what the least surprising behaviour would be after all23:03
ErantLennie: I have seen a few students in here interested in working on Melange. So you might get some help.23:03
ErantIt's still a GSoC project, right?23:04
Lenniewe will know after the application period :P23:04
Lenniekblin: ok23:04
kblinI'd be very, very very surprised if melange didn't get in23:04
LennieErant: Mario told me he talked to them23:04
Lenniekblin: yeah we are kinda privileged...23:04
ErantAh. I assumed Melange got in by default. Guess that wouldn't be 'fair' though.23:04
Lenniewe run the show :P23:04
Lenniebut we have to apply like everybody else :)23:05
kblinno one said gsoc was fair23:05
Erant;)23:05
kblinLennie: because you didn't program a special case :)23:05
Lenniekblin: if Org name == melange: accept ?23:05
kblin:)23:05
Erantif(organisation->name == MELANGE) accept(organisation);23:06
ErantProper language, kthx.23:06
Lenniebut yes looking forward to the ton of applies I can mark as spam23:06
MatthewWilkesErant: Get ou.23:06
MatthewWilkesGet out.*23:06
ErantAww :(23:06
MatthewWilkes:)23:06
kblinanyway, james bond o'clock, bedtime for me23:07
Erantif(!strncmp(organisation->name, "Melange", MAX_LENGTH_ORG_NAME)) accept(organisation);  <-- Better? :P23:08
kblinErant: I'd use case insensitive matching23:09
kblinand please write it in Ook23:09
kblin;)23:09
Erantstrnicmp I think...23:10
ErantMatthewWilkes: C is still, unfortunately, the language I'm most comfortable in.23:11
Lenniehahaha23:11
Lenniehell no unfrotunately23:11
Lennieit gets you somewhere :P23:11
Lennieso hush!23:11
ErantFine. ;P23:12
MatthewWilkesAt least he's not using C++23:18
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: hehe, "patches welcome" backfired there, huh? :)23:19
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SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: patches are still welcome ^^23:19
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: in fact, doing this means I can't do something else, but eh, same goes for everyone else, and you're worth the effort :P23:20
MatthewWilkesAww, how sweet :P23:20
ErantMatthewWilkes: Currently using a sane subset of C++ in eCos. Or at least, eCos is using it and I'm darting around it. ;P23:20
SRabbelieraren't I? :P23:20
ErantNot really.23:20
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: I'll find you some more bugs as a thank you ;)23:21
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: very kind ^^23:21
ArthurLiuheeey23:22
ArthurLiusoooo23:22
ArthurLiuI heard there's a deadline tonight for the melange testing23:22
ArthurLiu(pardon my tardiness, TGIF at work, waaay to much vodka, etc)23:22
ArthurLiuconcerning Debian, I read that I need to fill some application profile23:23
ArthurLiuwhere is that?23:23
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: Bit late for that, we're currently ranking student profiles23:23
ArthurLiuoh well..23:23
MatthewWilkesYou're welcome to be a co-admin of Plone though23:23
ArthurLiuokay23:23
MatthewWilkesSign up at melange-dev and apply to be a mentor, I'll approve it and add you as an admin too23:24
ArthurLiutjanks23:24
MatthewWilkesPlone's name is in brackets and displays backwards, fyi23:24
MatthewWilkesI was playing with unicode23:24
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Lenniehmm23:24
Lennieyou should have projects now matthew23:25
Lennieif you assigned a mentor23:25
Lennieand the new tasks performed as they were supposed to23:25
ArthurLiuit's the, hum, backwards one?23:25
MatthewWilkesLennie: Ah, we have one project, looks like some got rejected due to the bug with not transitioning them from new on mentor assignment23:26
Lenniehm23:26
Lennieprobably yes23:26
LennieSRabbelier: we should be able to run it again right?23:26
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: Yup, it's backwards23:26
Lennieit does skip accepted/rejected proposals right?23:27
SRabbelierLennie: say what?23:27
Lenniethe task23:27
ArthurLiuis Melange RTL-aware?23:27
ArthurLiu:)23:27
LennieRTL :P?23:27
ErantRegister Transfer Level? :)23:27
ArthurLiulike hebrew or arabic23:27
MatthewWilkesLennie: It's a shame there was that bug that stopped me registering as a student, I hope some people did so they can try student surveys23:27
ArthurLiuright-to-left23:27
LennieRadio Televisie Luxemburg :P23:27
MatthewWilkesRight-to-left23:27
LennieMatthewWilkes: realy a bug?23:28
Lenniewhich one23:28
MatthewWilkesThe reason plone's name is backwards is that it contains a a control char to set it to RTL23:28
SRabbelierLennie: doesn't it update the status of the proposal to 'rejected'?23:28
MatthewWilkesLennie: It got patched23:28
SRabbelierLennie: and as such simply re-running it wont' work?23:28
Lennieprobably yeah23:28
MatthewWilkesLennie: But not in time for me to sign up as a student23:28
ArthurLiuoh23:28
SRabbelierLennie: (you could remote-api them all back to 'new' or something)23:28
ArthurLiunice23:28
LennieI could do that for matthew23:28
Lenniebut I'm talking about the task itself23:28
Lennieit does skip accepted/rejected ones right?23:29
ArthurLiubtw23:29
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: There are some issues with emails generated, but it's not letting you do anything malicious23:29
ArthurLiuI asked before but didn't get a response: is it possible to switch google accounts behind a linkid on the prod instance ?23:29
MatthewWilkesLennie: It's ok, I've got 1 project, that'll be enough23:29
Lennieyes it is ArthurLiu23:29
Lennieon request :)23:29
ArthurLiucan I please has s/[email protected]/[email protected]/g for arthurliu ? :)23:30
Lenniewe however do not allow you to switch back to another one :)23:30
Lennieyeah sure23:30
Lenniehold on23:30
Lenniesocghop one right?23:30
ArthurLiuyes23:30
Lenniecurrent link id?23:30
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: Welcome to the plone foundation ;)23:30
ArthurLiugreaat23:30
Lenniearthurliu of course :P23:31
ArthurLiuyes23:31
ArthurLiuMatthewWilkes, it's actually RTL, I get the weird highlighting behavior and all23:31
Lennieto [email protected]23:31
ArthurLiuyes23:31
ArthurLiuI still get "Invoked a mutation view w/o POST." :)23:31
ArthurLiuI submitted a patch for this23:32
Lenniedone ArthurLiu23:32
ArthurLiuthank you23:32
LennieArthurLiu: yeah you should make the requested changes :)23:32
LennieMario has a lot to do23:32
ArthurLiuactually23:32
ArthurLiuthe RTL tag bleeds over the org name23:33
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: Yup, the unicode mirroring char just inverts the RTLness23:33
MatthewWilkesI was trying to be malicious23:33
LennieMatthewWilkes: +1 for that :)23:33
MatthewWilkesbut there aren't any places I've found where it matters23:33
ArthurLiuin the notification show view23:33
ArthurLiusee http://melange-dev.appspot.com/notification/show/arthurliu/t12678318046723:33
ErantUnicode is really evil :/23:33
MatthewWilkesI mean, if an org is being a dick and trying to break things and all it breaks is their notification emails, who cares?23:33
tpb<http://ln-s.net/5+j$> (at melange-dev.appspot.com)23:34
ArthurLiuhttp://www.milliways.fr/tmp/Screenshot-1.png23:34
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: That looks fine to me, only the org name is inverted23:34
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MatthewWilkesOooh, crossbrowser23:34
MatthewWilkesit doesn't in chrome23:34
ArthurLiunot to me in FF 3.5.823:34
ArthurLiuwhat happens if a student puts an RTL char in a proposal title?23:35
ErantMatthewWilkes: Have you tried malformed Unicode yet? It's something I wanted to try, but is more an attack on the feedparser than Melange.23:35
SRabbelierArthurLiu: works fine in Chrome here :P23:35
ArthurLiuyeah well23:36
ArthurLiudid you try IE6? :)23:36
Erant...23:36
ArthurLiuNCSA Mosaic 2.0 ?23:36
ArthurLiulet's try Lynx23:36
ErantLennie: Oh, btw23:36
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu: Great minds…23:37
Lennieyes?23:37
ErantLennie: I noticed an image in a student proposal at one point, can any student do that?23:37
ErantOr just Melange-gods?23:37
Lennieany student should be able to do that23:37
Lenniewe must allow them some freedom :P23:37
Lenniehow else to write a proper proposal?23:37
Lenniesome really need the images23:37
SRabbelierErant: they should be cleaned though23:37
ErantWhat does it do for <img src="javascript...23:38
SRabbelierErant: that shouldn't work23:38
SRabbelierErant: but, do try! :D23:38
MatthewWilkesErant: Ah, good one.23:38
ArthurLiuhttp://www.milliways.fr/tmp/Screenshot-2.png w3m is slightly broken23:38
MatthewWilkesThere are all sorts of nasties that are possible.23:38
ErantMatthewWilkes: I've gotten melange with that one before. They're really hard to filter out.23:38
SRabbelierArthurLiu: not as badly broken as I'd expect though :P23:38
MatthewWilkesErant: on-error things often get missed too23:38
SRabbelierArthurLiu: try a list :P23:38
ArthurLiulists are just blanks23:39
ArthurLiummh23:40
SRabbelierLennie: hmmm, http://melange-dev.appspot.com/gsoc/student/list_projects/melange/gsoc201023:40
tpb<http://ln-s.net/5+jz> (at melange-dev.appspot.com)23:40
SRabbelierLennie: "Access to this page has been restricted."23:40
SRabbelierLennie: as my student23:40
MatthewWilkeswow, you're right, ArthurLiu23:40
Lennie:)23:40
MatthewWilkesThat's NASTY23:40
Lennieprobably the list stuff23:40
ArthurLiuI don't want to make you feel bad, but what about a11y ?23:40
ErantRight, I don't think I'm a student.23:40
Lenniethe lists on the manage page are also broken :P23:40
ErantCrap.23:40
SRabbelierLennie: even though I have a student role http://melange-dev.appspot.com/gsoc/student/edit/melange/gsoc2010/alturin23:40
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: what's nasty?23:40
tpb<http://ln-s.net/5+k$> (at melange-dev.appspot.com)23:40
LennieI can't get my overview of which surveys have been taken23:41
ErantLennie: plx to add student role? :)23:41
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: No lists show up without javascript enabled23:41
LennieErant: you should have registered as one :P23:41
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: well duh :P23:41
ErantNoooo.23:41
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: we have ajaxy lists now bitches23:41
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: I thought it was just progressive enhancement23:41
LennieErant: do you have an account on which you are not a mentor/org admin yet?23:41
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: they're full of ajaxy goodness23:41
LennieErant: you can't even submit a proposal anymore it is closed23:41
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: and show what?23:41
ErantAight, nm. I'll get it in the actual run. Where else should I be able to put in images?23:41
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: the entity limitation still remains23:41
ArthurLiuI think we should at least support a bare bones list for js-impaired browsers23:42
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Entity limitation?23:42
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: the timeouts23:42
MatthewWilkesYou mean the 1000 object limit that was lifted a while back?23:42
ErantLennie: As in, anything hooked up to the same parser.23:42
ArthurLiuI'm not even talking about screen readers23:42
SRabbelierArthurLiu: nope23:42
SRabbelierArthurLiu: Melange has a hard requirement on JS23:42
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: I'd expect to see a html table if JS didn't load23:42
SRabbelierArthurLiu: and screenreaders can support JS23:42
MatthewWilkesArthurLiu, SRabbelier: Yeah, screen-readers are generally happy with JS, what they hate is people being clever23:43
LennieSRabbelier: Fixed that one23:43
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes, ArthurLiu: Mario is to add a message saying "Melange really needs you to turn on JS"23:43
SRabbelierLennie: noice23:43
MatthewWilkesJAWS has abysmal accessibility support23:43
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Ok23:43
LennieSRabbelier: could you take a look at the logs and figure out what is going on on the manage page?23:43
ArthurLiuthat would be a start, yes23:43
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: are we being clever?23:44
SRabbelierLennie: not really, MatthewWilkes stole my time, complains to him23:44
SRabbelier:P23:44
SRabbelierLennie: (he's worth it :P)23:44
SRabbelierL'oreal :P23:44
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: I mean things like using XHTML+ARIA to notify the reader of AJAX events are 'clever'23:44
SRabbeliers/^/He uses /23:44
Lenniethen add it as one of your top priorties to your list23:45
MatthewWilkesIt makes JAWS choke23:45
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: wait, what? isn't ARIA supposed to _help_ them screenreaders?23:45
Lennieit seems to be your record_getter that is doing something weird :)23:45
LennieMatthewWilkes: did you set a home page for your org?23:45
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: No, I use herbal essences23:45
SRabbelierLennie: surely you jest, my record_getter is made of awesomeness23:45
Lennie:P23:45
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Yes, it's supposed to.  In reality it doesn't actually work.23:46
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: then I'm afraid you're not worth it23:46
Lennieawesomeness has the tendancy to fail :D23:46
* MatthewWilkes has seen jaws choke on ARIA23:46
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: (that's their slogan)23:46
MatthewWilkesI know :)23:46
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: hehe, nice, reality always kicks "supposed to"'s ass23:46
MatthewWilkesLennie: I have a home page link, no document linked atm23:46
MatthewWilkesLennie: Is that ok with you, sir? :)23:50
Lenniehmm23:50
Lennieperhaps :p23:50
Lenniewould be nice if you set a home page document23:50
Lenniethat would also show the list of projects for your org23:50
Lennieand the Google Map :)23:50
MatthewWilkesLennie: Perhaps melange should be the one bugging me?23:50
Lenniealready an issue for that :P23:51
MatthewWilkes:)23:51
Lenniefeel free to submit a patch :d23:51
LennieLeslie will bug you for it :)23:51
MatthewWilkesGiving Leslie more work isn't a valid fix :)23:51
MatthewWilkesLennie: Are you talking about http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=221&q=home%20page&sort=-id&colspec=ID%20Type%20Priority%20Status%20Owner%20Milestone%20Effort%20Skills%20Summary as the issue that needs a patch?23:52
tpb<http://ln-s.net/5+lb> (at code.google.com)23:52
ArthurLiuactually, about the JS lists23:52
Lennienope23:52
ArthurLiuadd a quicker loading 'loading' thing23:52
ArthurLiuand then a non-js 'please get a js interpreter' failover23:53
ArthurLiuyou still have a ~500ms latency in FF where the zone of the list is just blank23:53
MatthewWilkesIt's especially bad on pages with multiple lists23:54
Lennie60223:54
MatthewWilkesLennie: Hmm, is the home page addition deadline an event in the system?23:55
Lennienope23:55
Lennieway too detailed23:55
MatthewWilkesSo it'd need to be special cased?  Sounds like that page would get messy quick.23:55
Lennieidd23:55
MatthewWilkesUpcoming events and periods ending on a page is a very nice idea, though23:56
Lennieyou could abuse the timeline for that23:56
ArthurLiujust checked, even Chrome has a ~300ms delay23:57
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: dun23:57
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Awesome!23:58
SRabbelierArthurLiu: mhhh, we can send the list "definition" at page creation time I guess23:58
ArthurLiualso, form input fields outline between blur/focus is not consistent in Firefox (at least on linux): http://www.milliways.fr/tmp/Screenshot-3.png23:59
SRabbelierArthurLiu: (so you'd see an empty list as soon as you receive the initial html page)23:59
MatthewWilkesThanks, I'll have to buy you a beer at the mentor summit (assuming Melange and Plone are both accepted)23:59
ArthurLiuSRabbelier, that would save at least a packet roundtrip, that's significant23:59
SRabbelierArthurLiu: it wouldn't23:59
ArthurLiuoh, just the definition23:59
SRabbelierArthurLiu: we include the list definition in the first data batch :)23:59
ArthurLiuyeah well, it's a bit better23:59

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