Thursday, 2009-01-29

*** tpb has joined #melange00:00
*** dmitrig01 has quit IRC01:06
*** madrazr has quit IRC01:49
*** madrazr has joined #melange01:53
*** solydzajs has joined #melange02:30
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o solydzajs02:30
*** scorche has quit IRC02:58
*** scorche has joined #melange02:59
*** solydzajs has quit IRC03:32
*** solydzajs has joined #melange03:33
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o solydzajs03:33
*** madrazr has quit IRC04:20
*** bhy has joined #melange04:40
*** mithro has quit IRC05:11
*** mithro has joined #melange05:23
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v mithro05:23
*** madrazr has joined #melange05:33
*** penyaskito_ has joined #melange06:04
*** penyaskito__ has joined #melange06:12
*** SRabbelier has joined #melange06:16
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v SRabbelier06:16
*** penyaskito has quit IRC06:18
*** madrazr has quit IRC06:22
*** penyaskito_ has quit IRC06:24
*** mithro has quit IRC06:49
*** penyaskito__ is now known as penyaskito06:49
*** tpb has joined #melange07:19
*** MatthewWilkes has joined #melange07:25
solydzajsMatthewWilkes: ping07:39
MatthewWilkessolydzajs: pong07:48
solydzajsMatthewWilkes: hi :-) just wondering if there was any progress ?;-)07:48
MatthewWilkessolydzajs: Sure, did some catching up on how the acls have changed since we last spoke, seems simple enough, started on the pattern used for displaying lists to display the comments, so they can be easily inserted into other pages07:49
MatthewWilkesI'm still learning, so been refactoring, that's why I've not sent any diffs07:50
solydzajsMatthewWilkes: ok sure :-) thx07:51
solydzajsMatthewWilkes: how long do you think it will take you ?07:51
MatthewWilkessolydzajs: I'm still aiming to meet the end of the month deadline, I mean I have the models in place, the create form is the blocker for me at the moment07:53
solydzajsok that would be awesome07:53
solydzajskeep me posted07:53
MatthewWilkesOk, I'll take another bash at it tonight07:55
*** mithro has joined #melange08:23
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v mithro08:23
*** madrazr has joined #melange08:47
*** madrazr has quit IRC09:19
*** mithro has quit IRC10:20
*** Lennie has joined #melange10:41
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v Lennie10:41
*** tlarsen has joined #melange11:05
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o tlarsen11:05
bhyHi, is anyone working on student model / student registration?11:05
bhyI think the student model is incomplete, at least it should referenced to an application/document?11:08
bhyany ideas?11:08
MatthewWilkesbhy: Applications are done by creating a reference between a proposal and a user11:09
bhyoh, yes..11:11
bhyproposal is a work, any work has a author11:13
bhySo why not work inherit from document?11:15
solydzajsclass Document(
solydzajsdocument inherits from Work11:16
bhyI think I should read more about the models :)11:18
bhyshould we have a "Student Register" at sidebar?11:35
bhyIf so, which section? User (self) ?11:36
MatthewWilkesbhy: The thing is, students registering is different for different programmes11:37
bhyisn't student registered and then join different programmes?11:38
MatthewWilkesAh, sorry, thought you meant joining programmes11:43
*** bcarlyon|laptop has quit IRC11:51
bhybut how a role and a program connected?11:51
bhyI can't find the connection..11:52
*** bcarlyon|laptop has joined #melange11:52
bhyeg. is there really a joining process?11:52
Lennierole is connected through the scope property11:56
Lenniebhy, try to take a look at clubs11:58
Lenniethat might help you with your questions about applications and stuff11:58
bhyjust a bit confused, so it means each year we should register a new role for the program?12:00
bhyalso, club member and student is different entity, so these personal info duplicated?12:01
tlarsenbhy: Yes, the plan is to pre-populate a new Role form with the last one that the User already filled out.12:02
tlarsenbhy: But, yes, each Role is separate for each Program.12:03
tpb<> (at
tlarsenbhy: In the past, some participants have wanted to provide a different address based on the time of year that the program was running (to have stuff--tshirts and payments--shipped, say, to school for one program, and to their home for another)12:05
bhybut is it a kind of redundancy form database's perspective12:05
bhyem, indeed12:06
tlarsenbhy: Yes, but the App Engine Datastore encourages redundancy to make sharding easier.12:06
tlarsenbhy: The goal in App Engine is *not* to have a completely normalized database, for example.12:06
tlarsenbhy: Joins are *very* expensive.12:06
bhyem, a bit difference :)12:07
tlarsenbhy: Data storage is cheap, so a certain amount of duplication to avoid needing to do joins is encouraged.12:07
bhythen how about the user experience side?12:07
bhyfor example, I want to change my ship address12:07
MatthewWilkes+1 on that decision, if you've ever had to try and roll out a system that some gimp has made lots of stored procedures and "clever things" in you'll know what a pain it can be getting it to run12:08
tlarsenThat has been discussed as well.12:08
tlarsenLet me see if I can find the issue.12:08
bhythen I should change it for each role? (club member, student etc)12:08
tpb<> (at
tlarsenbhy: We have thought of these things, honest.  :)12:09
bhylet me see :)12:09
bhyI think I got it12:10
bhythanks tlarsen :)12:11
tlarsenbhy: This setup is designed to incur the expensive operations at update time (which only happen when someone changes information), instead of at query time (which happens a lot).12:11
bhywow, got it12:12
bhyso we have fast query and flexible scheme12:12
lhi have a couple of quick questions please12:16
lh1) if i edit the site settings to update, will that data be wiped when we push the latest version?12:17
lhMatthewWilkes: hello dear12:17
tlarsenlh: no, but...12:17
lhtlarsen: what's the but?12:17
tlarsenlh: there is no official release running on yet.12:17
tlarsenlh: So, don't put anything you don't want wiped there yet.12:18
lhtlarsen: when can i begin adding data to
lhspecifically, i need to update the site home page ( and get the 2009 FAQs in the system ready for publication (but still hidden for now)12:18
lhthe 2009 FAQs would need to be displayed in the left hand nav for all those visiting, much like the site terms of service are now12:19
tlarsenI've given the committers until the release branch cut for the Monday call (until 10:00 AM CST / 4:00 PM UTC) to make schema-breaking changes.12:19
lhtlarsen: so at that point i can add data to the system and not worry about it being wiped later on when there are additional pushes, etc.?12:19
tlarsenlh: After that release branch is cut, I will "vendor branch" it to /p/soc-google/.12:20
tlarsenThat "official Google fork" will get pushed to the App Engine instance some time after that.12:20
lhok. what does that mean for data i have already put into the system?12:20
tlarsenlh: Yes, the policy is going to be that I will not branch code into /p/soc-google/ that will break the schema.12:20
tlarsenlh: No guarantees, since they already broke the schema once this week.12:21
tlarsenlh: Sorry, that is the best I can promise.12:21
tlarsenlh: We haven't had any sort of official release discipline until this.12:21
tlarsenJeff and I (and the interns working with us) always took care of this for the old GSoC web app.  :)12:21
lhOkay, you are talking schemas and I am talking about data and documents. I don't know how one affects the other. So to clarify, I can input data into the system after the release branch is pushed on Monday and hopefully it will still be there later. Is that a correct assessment?12:22
tlarsenlh: So, until I announce on gsoc-tech that there is an official Google release of Melange running on, it is just a demo.12:22
*** N4L|Lennie has joined #melange12:22
*** Lennie has quit IRC12:22
lhAnd after that I take it that documents created within the system, e.g. will remain at that url and likely not be blown away by future releases?12:23
tpb<> (at
tlarsenlh: They will *not* be blown away.  I won't permit it.12:23
lhOkay, excellent.12:23
tlarsenlh: We will not incorporate code from the public Melange that includes schema breakage, if I can help it.12:24
tlarsenlh: We should have started launch review *last week* according to Jeff, so we have to start stabilizing things and locking stuff down.12:24
tlarsenlh: There is much more to running GSoC on Melange than just what goes on in Melange.12:25
lhtlarsen: according to chris, we don't need to do formal launch reviews, so I am totally confused there.12:25
lhtlarsen: Yep, absolutely.12:25
lhin any case12:25
tlarsenlh: Hmmm.  That is contradictory to everything I have heard from anyone else.  There *are* App Engine launch reviews, and for good reason.12:25
tlarsenlh: I certainly don't want Google's official name put on a site that is unreliable.12:25
lhtlarsen: i have the mail from chris if you would like me to forward. i am as surprised as you are.12:26
tlarsenlh: We have to *at least* hit the reliability of the old web app.12:26
tlarsenlh: Please do forward it.12:26
lhtlarsen: i don't know what to tell you todd.12:26
lhok, will do.12:26
lhmail forwarded12:27
lhok, next question12:27
lhSo next question - I would like to create the FAQ document on, though I would not like it to be published until after my speech at FOSDEM on 8 February. if I input the data into the system now, no one who is not a developer on can see the document, correct?12:28
lhcorrection: a developer who is *also* signed into the system.12:29
N4L|Lennieeveryone can see it12:30
*** N4L|Lennie is now known as Lennie12:30
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v Lennie12:30
Lennieso you'd better not ^_^12:30
lhLennie: i just experimented by adding the old faqs to the system and they do not show up in the left hand nav, whether or not the document is featured.12:31
lhis that because the current version of melange on is not the latest release?12:31
Lennieas long as you dont tell anybody which scope path and link id you are using no one can find it12:31
Lenniebut you can't move the document to another location12:32
Lennieand the document creator is undergoing changes by SRabbelier12:32
lhLennie: okay, that's good to know. so let's say i want to input all 2009 faqs and have them displayed via a link in the site left hand nav, to all site visitors whether or not they are signed in (like the fake Terms of service are now).12:33
lhBut not display the document until after my speech at FOSDEM.12:33
lhIs this possible?12:33
Lenniedocuments will be redone soon12:33
Lennietlarsen is already putting way too much pressure on the project12:33
Lenniedefensive coding sucks12:34
Lenniebut for the 3 things he mentioned in the mail stuff should be done by monday12:34
Lennieyou'd probably wont be able to do the real FAQ untill the program is created12:35
lhall right then. so what's the best solution for now in terms of publishing our FAQs? perhaps i should just put them into a google document and link those from the site home page at socghop.appspot.com12:36
Lenniewe hope to have that ready on monday as well12:36
bhyis the up to date?12:36
lhLennie: okay, great.12:36
Lennieyeah for the time being12:36
* lh makes note of this12:36
bhythe urls in Create Club Member view seems strange ..12:36
tpb<> (at
* lh goes to a meeting, bbl12:36
Lenniebhy, yeah12:37
Lenniedev is not running latest version ^_ ^12:37
tlarsenLennie: sorry, but if we are going to run GSoC 2009 on Melange, some things have to start happening *now*.12:37
bhyindeed ..12:38
tlarsenlh: Are you really planning on using sites for a bunch of stuff?12:38
tlarsenlh: I think we should just add some sort of "not public" ability to Document for you, if that is what is needed.12:38
Lennietlarsen: if you dont want scheme changes dont go adding temp stuff12:39
Lenniejust give sverre a few more days12:39
Lennietlarsen, if you want to lock down on monday you should spend some time on the public templates ;012:42
Lennieand make them show only the information that should be public12:42
Lennie(if you want to up the branch cut on monday to the gsocghop place)12:42
tlarsenLennie: public templates?12:43
tlarsenLennie: changing templates after the fact is not going to break anything.12:43
Lenniethat's not what I meant12:43
tlarsenLennie: If you remove something from being displayed, it just goes away.12:44
LennieI mean you cant launch this app when it's showing public info :P12:44
tlarsenI am not worried about cosmetic imperfections.12:44
Lenniethat shouldn't be public12:44
tlarsenLennie: Wanna bet?12:44
Lenniefine by me :P12:44
LennieI can find out where you live ^_^12:44
tlarsenThe whole point of Leslie sending out an invite to former GSoC mentors is so that they can *complain* when something is displayed publicly that they don't want displayed.12:44
Lenniefine by me :D12:44
Lennieso it's not a real launch then12:45
Lenniebut just more of a start complaining ^_ ^?12:45
tlarsenLeslie will need to craft the invite email to make it very clear that this is an early release so that we can gather feedback on security, privacy issues, and the like.12:45
Lenniethat's true12:45
tlarsenLennie: Yes.  And to collect enough data to do some load testing.12:45
tlarsenBut, Leslie wants to enter Documents and wants them to *not* go away.12:46
Lenniecan we have dev status on the console for that app untill we start running gsoc?12:46
Lennieso we can see the logs?12:46
tlarsenLennie: Nope.12:46
tlarsenLennie: Pawel has access.12:46
Lenniethat's fine12:46
tlarsenLennie: Sorry, but we have to firewall this a bit.12:46
LennieI know12:46
Lenniethat's why I said untill gsoc starts :P12:46
tlarsenLennie: As far as Google *engineering* is concerned, it *has* started.  :)12:48
tlarsenLennie: we don't launch something the day before, you know.12:48
solydzajsi'm back12:48
solydzajsreading backlog12:48
tlarsenLennie: In fact, this is going to be one of the shortest ramp up times that GSoC has seen.12:48
tlarsenLennie: I am usually doing final testing and next-year updates to the old GSoC web app in December.12:49
Lennieit's gonna be a bumpy road tlarsen :)12:49
tlarsenLennie: I *never* wait this long.12:49
solydzajstlarsen: the only thing that might change is the Documents stuff, cause Sverre is working on scope dependent document creator12:49
tlarsensolydzajs: As long as it does not invalidate the Document Entities already in the Datastore, I'm not concerned.12:50
solydzajstlarsen: well as you know we didn't have much of the functionality in December, so well it's not our fault that we couldn't do final testing so quickly.12:50
tlarsensolydzajs: I realize that.  If the decision were mine, we would be running GSoC 2009 on the old app one more time, but it is not.12:51
tlarsensolydzajs: And that is all I have to say about that.12:51
solydzajstlarsen: yep it's not mine decision either.12:51
tlarsensolydzajs: The "Document export" part of this issue is working:
tpb<> (at
solydzajstlarsen: I would probably too, even tho we do our best with Melange.12:51
tlarsensolydzajs: Perhaps someone should try to implement the "Document import" side this week.12:51
tlarsensolydzajs: I can see two ways to do it:12:52
tlarsen1) have a separate form that does *not* have the TinyMCE control in the textarea (so that the Document HTML can be pasted in)12:52
solydzajstlarsen: is the document importer a high priority ?12:53
tlarsen2) have an Upload button that lets the file saved by the Export button upload the text file12:53
solydzajstlarsen: making orgs/org apps stuff is more important12:53
tlarsensolydzajs: If we want to protect Leslie's FAQs, and let her author them early, save them off, and then Upload them right before FOSDEM, it is.12:53
solydzajstlarsen: ok, will you create an issue for it ?12:54
tpb<> (at
tlarsensolydzajs: I can change it to Feature and increase the priority, if you'd like.12:54
LennieI'd rather just see the changes to the document editor happen12:56
Lenniethen it's possible to make stuff public12:56
Lennieand not public12:56
tlarsenOK, either one.12:56
tlarsenLennie: but the backup capability is still needed.12:56
Lenniebackup the DB via GAEBAR ?12:57
tlarsenLennie: If I have time, I will implement it, since I think it is not hard.12:57
tlarsenLennie: That is not a solution for Users.12:57
tlarsenLennie: I am talking about Users being able to capture their content on their own.12:57
Lennieyou can copy paste your own document :P12:57
Lenniebut yeah you'll loose layout12:58
tlarsenLennie: No, because you don't get to see the HTML.12:58
tlarsenLennie: The Export feature *already works*.12:58
tlarsenClick on the button and the browser will offer to save the file as text.12:58
solydzajstlarsen: ok you can increase the priority12:59
Lennieimho there is more important work laying around ^_ ^13:00
Lennielike form cleaning13:00
Lennieso that you can't overwrite existing entities13:00
tlarsenLennie: Leslie's use requirement are very high priority.13:00
tlarsenLennie: The first thing she needs to do with the live site is publish some Documents.13:01
tlarsenLennie: Leslie is the only official "customer" at this point.13:01
Lennieyou are talking about exporting them13:01
Lennienot publishing them on the site13:01
tlarsenLennie: I am talking about Leslie getting:13:01
Lenniethat's totally different stuff right there13:01
tlarsenLennie: 1) the ability to backup *lengthy* Documents she has formatted the way she wants13:01
tlarsenLennie: 2) the ability to mark Documents as "not public" so that she can author them without the world seeing them13:02
tlarsenLennie: Yes, it is *two* different features, but she needs them *both*.13:02
tlarsenLennie: I don't think she is worried about if we are cleaning all of the forms.  :)13:02
tlarsenLennie: Anyway, I am not asking you to go do these things.  I am just conveying needs that were told to me to the committers.13:03
Lennieso she doesn't mind if someone is overwriting other people's stuff?13:03
tlarsenLennie: Anyone is welcome to implement those things, and I will do it if no one else gets around to it.13:03
tlarsenLennie: I am just communicating the *needs* from our actual User.13:03
tlarsenLennie: No one is suggesting that there isn't more to do than we can do.13:04
solydzajsSRabbelier: ping13:04
tlarsenLennie: I am just saying that comments from Leslie need to be a strong input signal to the priority process.  (as long as she isn't so unreasonable as to derail the existing plan, that is)13:05
*** tlarsen is now known as tlarsen|lunch13:10
*** madrazr has joined #melange13:13
Lennietlarsen|lunch, if you want no schema changes on monday please try to get an answer from legal about ToS ^_ ^13:26
*** tlarsen|lunch is now known as tlarsen13:27
tlarsenLennie: I believe Leslie already addressed this.13:27
Lennieaha really13:28
Lenniedid I miss an update :D?13:28
tpb<> (at
tpb<> (at
Lennieokay sticky it is already that's good13:28
tlarsenLennie: We just want to follow SRabbelier's recommendation and change it from a BooleanProperty to a date/time one.13:29
Lennieif we really want that create an issue for that please13:29
tlarsenIt is in issue 174.13:29
tlarsenYou want a separate issue?13:29
tlarsenOK, will do.13:29
LennieI'll tag that issue in my inbox and try to get to it soon13:30
Lenniemake me owner ^_^13:30
*** Lennie is now known as Lennie|Gone13:31
*** tlarsen is now known as tlarsen|lunch13:35
*** MatthewWilkes has quit IRC13:38
bhynew question: since program is not a group, should student belong to any group?13:39
bhyI mean params['group_logic'] params['group_view'] etc13:40
tlarsen|lunchbhy: I believe there is supposed to be a School sub-class of Group.13:41
bhybut there's no view for School yet13:42
bhyis that make sense to let School have a view?13:43
tlarsen|lunchbhy: I think School was going to be implemented some other way, with the "Program Owner" (Host) uploading some known set of schools or something.13:45
tlarsen|lunchNot sure, really.13:45
tlarsen|lunchbhy: The focus lately has been on the first milestones in GSoC, namely org sign-ups.13:46
tlarsen|lunchbhy: So, the student stuff hasn't been given a lot of attention, since it isn't needed for a while.  :)13:46
lhtlarsen|lunch: i like the not public document idea13:49
tlarsen|lunchlh: Could you please open a feature request in the issue tracker?  Pretty please?  :)13:50
tlarsen|lunchDescribe how you want the feature to work (checkbox to hide, only the author can view, etc.)13:51
tlarsen|lunchsolydzajs: Are you still around?13:54
solydzajstlarsen|lunch: yes13:54
tlarsen|lunchsolydzajs: Do you still want the items in the wiki converted to Feature Requests?13:55
solydzajstlarsen|lunch: I wanted to do it during weekend13:55
solydzajstlarsen|lunch: you want to do it ?13:56
tlarsen|lunchsolydzajs: OK, if you are planning to do it, then nevermind.13:56
lhtlarsen|lunch: will do14:12
*** Merio has joined #melange14:13
*** Lennie|Gone is now known as Lennie14:25
*** bhy has quit IRC15:38
*** madrazr1 has joined #melange15:51
*** madrazr has quit IRC15:51
LennieI need an HTML expert16:09
Lenniewho wants a challenge ;P?16:09
Landonfinding an html expert? :P16:16
* Landon goes back to his assembly lab16:16
solydzajstlarsen|lunch: ping, I want to discuss ToS one more time16:23
*** Merio has quit IRC16:50
*** MatthewWilkes has joined #melange17:13
LennieWAZZZZZZZZUP MatthewWilkes ^_ ^17:14
MatthewWilkesLennie! Just finished group project - it's awful.  Turns out the people in the group doing the script writing are in the remedial grammar seminar.  Urgh, but it's done now, yourself?17:17
LennieI'm fine :P17:17
Lenniemy life is dull apparently if I can do it in three words :p17:18
LennieI also turned in a project today17:18
LennieThe teacher sucks yes :P?17:18
MatthewWilkeshehe, I set my fb status to be about putting off my tax return (due saturday or a £100 fine), my sister just called me: "You do a tax return?  What's a tax return?  Should I have done one?"17:22
Lennielol :P17:25
*** MatthewWilkes has quit IRC17:45
*** MatthewWilkes has joined #melange17:53
*** Lennie has quit IRC18:35
*** SRabbelier has quit IRC18:49
*** solydzajs has quit IRC19:31
*** scorche has quit IRC20:12
*** scorche has joined #melange20:13
*** gloob has quit IRC20:14
*** gloob has joined #melange20:14
*** MatthewWilkes has quit IRC21:33
*** dmitrig01|afk has joined #melange21:36
*** ChanServ sets mode: +v dmitrig01|afk21:36
*** dmitrig01|afk is now known as dmitrig0122:55
*** tlarsen|lunch has quit IRC23:00
*** gloob has quit IRC23:25
*** gloob has joined #melange23:26
*** madrazr has joined #melange23:36

Generated by 2.17.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!