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| lord_midnight | I am lord midnight | 01:55 |
|---|---|---|
| lord_midnight | I opened the spacecraft emporium on your forum | 01:56 |
| lord_midnight | I am makin stuffs for yur game | 01:56 |
| lord_midnight | I made some new stuff, lots of pictures | 01:58 |
| lord_midnight | uuum, kinda dead in here, are you guys sleeping ? | 01:59 |
| lord_midnight | well, imma flood then ;) | 03:38 |
| lord_midnight | FO is a great game/sim already | 03:38 |
| lord_midnight | I think in a few years, it will be really, really awesome | 03:39 |
| lord_midnight | I will make you some ships, its good practice for me, though I am having trouble getting hard edges with subsurfaces | 03:43 |
| lord_midnight | I think not every thing needs to look super organic, many industrial cultures would use very utilitarian ships, perhaps even simple cubes | 03:46 |
| lord_midnight | I will try to use the massive amounts of poly budget Ill have to add lots of details, like access pannels n stuff | 03:46 |
| kroddn | hi | 04:08 |
| kroddn | You may post at the forums, then the graphic people can discuss with you | 04:09 |
| lord_midnight | I made a post on the forum | 04:10 |
| lord_midnight | hello kroddn | 04:10 |
| lord_midnight | you are mod in here, I take it you are on the dev team too ? | 04:10 |
| lord_midnight | with pd and Geoff ? | 04:11 |
| lord_midnight | and whos he lead, tyra something, the guy in the black cloak ? | 04:11 |
| lord_midnight | the leader rather | 04:11 |
| lord_midnight | http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2792 | 04:12 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3I7F> (at www.freeorion.org) | 04:12 |
| lord_midnight | that is my post | 04:12 |
| lord_midnight | oh, lol | 04:12 |
| lord_midnight | there are many more images in the gallery | 04:13 |
| lord_midnight | the mauler with its extended engine, and the forward turrets | 04:14 |
| kroddn | tzlaine and GeofftheMedio_ are what could be called "leaders" | 04:16 |
| kroddn | I am member of the team too, but many other people are too | 04:16 |
| lord_midnight | cool, Im hoping to make some product lines of ships, and improve my skills ! :) | 04:18 |
| lord_midnight | I also know a bit of python | 04:19 |
| lord_midnight | I can program a little, though not in C++ | 04:19 |
| lord_midnight | I might be able to block out psuedo code though | 04:20 |
| lord_midnight | like, Im pretty sure I could get all the logic done to test if an adjacent tile in a 3d grid was occupied | 04:20 |
| lord_midnight | but Icouldnt do A* from scratch | 04:21 |
| lord_midnight | I know python, but I hate it | 04:21 |
| lord_midnight | intermezzo coding style is distasteful to me, hard enough to think in curly braces | 04:22 |
| lord_midnight | but I can do it ok I guess. I just took a class on it this spring | 04:26 |
| lord_midnight | how big are ships going to be on screen ? | 04:27 |
| kroddn | Ask at the forums, I don't know | 04:29 |
| lord_midnight | what do you work on ? | 04:30 |
| kroddn | Linux Package of FreeOrion | 04:32 |
| lord_midnight | awesome, I used to use linux a lot | 04:33 |
| lord_midnight | Im pretty much IBM and XP only while Im in school | 04:33 |
| lord_midnight | been meaning to build a LAMP server though, just to play around with | 04:33 |
| lord_midnight | is there a timeline anywhere ? | 04:36 |
| lord_midnight | Ive seen the roadmap, curious if there where temporal goals to go with it, or if its just a whenever it gets done kind of thing | 04:37 |
| lord_midnight | is it usually this quiet, or is there times of the week when it is more lively ? | 04:42 |
| kroddn | most people are sleeping now | 04:43 |
| lord_midnight | oh, ok, when are they up ? | 04:43 |
| kroddn | don't know exactly | 04:44 |
| lord_midnight | oh, you an aussie ? | 04:44 |
| kroddn | ? | 04:45 |
| kroddn | i am german | 04:45 |
| lord_midnight | most the guys from australia are up now | 04:45 |
| lord_midnight | oh, cool | 04:45 |
| kroddn | hehe | 04:45 |
| lord_midnight | I know about 12 words in german | 04:45 |
| lord_midnight | more than I guess, I can count to twenty | 04:45 |
| lord_midnight | and I could fumble my way to a hundred | 04:46 |
| lord_midnight | ich is ein oder dreizig | 04:46 |
| lord_midnight | ich ist | 04:46 |
| kroddn | you are from australia? | 04:46 |
| lord_midnight | no, amerika | 04:46 |
| lord_midnight | I took deutsch in 7th grade, like over 15 years ago | 04:47 |
| lord_midnight | but it was fun to learn, english is about half germanic half latin | 04:48 |
| lord_midnight | I got up at 12:30 | 04:49 |
| lord_midnight | I slept a bit late | 04:49 |
| kroddn | its 10:45am here | 04:49 |
| lord_midnight | 3:45 here | 04:49 |
| lord_midnight | Ill be up till this afternoon | 04:49 |
| kroddn | 3:45 pm? | 04:50 |
| lord_midnight | then sleep during the hot part of the day | 04:50 |
| kroddn | ah, okay | 04:50 |
| lord_midnight | 345 am | 04:50 |
| lord_midnight | I am a night owl | 04:50 |
| kroddn | how hot's it going to be ? | 04:50 |
| kroddn | its 15� C here ^^ | 04:50 |
| lord_midnight | idk, but it will be hot and bright and uncomfortable | 04:50 |
| lord_midnight | y know, I have a python script that converts C to F and back around here somewhere | 04:51 |
| lord_midnight | 26° C here tomorrow | 04:53 |
| lord_midnight | which is good weather really | 04:53 |
| lord_midnight | I just dont want to deal with rest of humanity in full swing rushing about their lives | 04:54 |
| lord_midnight | Im much more laid back than that | 04:55 |
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| lord_midnight | hello | 06:16 |
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| lord_midnight | :( | 06:16 |
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| lord_midnight | is pd in here >] | 08:57 |
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| GeofftheMedio | midnight: no (re: pd) | 09:15 |
| lord_midnight | geoff ! | 09:19 |
| lord_midnight | hello | 09:19 |
| lord_midnight | have you seen the arrivals at the shop ? | 09:20 |
| lord_midnight | lots of stuff in thew store gallery | 09:20 |
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| lord_midnight | hello | 09:32 |
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| GeofftheMedio | no. make a new post and I might notice. | 10:01 |
| GeofftheMedio | but in general, I don't follow every graphics / model post anyway | 10:01 |
| lord_midnight | ok | 10:05 |
| lord_midnight | pd is who I should work with ? | 10:05 |
| GeofftheMedio | yes | 10:06 |
| lord_midnight | ok, does h ever come in here ? | 10:06 |
| GeofftheMedio | no | 10:07 |
| lord_midnight | ok, are there like dev chats in here ? | 10:08 |
| lord_midnight | is there a timeline on .4 ? I know ships need done to do .4 | 10:08 |
| GeofftheMedio | not really. we mostly use the forums for design and art and email for programming issues. | 10:09 |
| lord_midnight | I am hoping to have the grizzly line of ships box modeled in the next week or so | 10:09 |
| GeofftheMedio | v0.4 will be done when it's done. depends entirely on how much free time various people have | 10:09 |
| lord_midnight | with most of their addons | 10:10 |
| lord_midnight | after that Ill just keep adding detail | 10:10 |
| GeofftheMedio | talk with pd; make sure you're doing something useful | 10:10 |
| lord_midnight | ok | 10:10 |
| lord_midnight | it seemed 3d models of ships were scarce, and its what Im most interested in doing | 10:11 |
| GeofftheMedio | they are. doesn't mean doing any arbitrary way will produce something useful, though | 10:12 |
| lord_midnight | you do design and programming ? | 10:12 |
| GeofftheMedio | yes | 10:13 |
| lord_midnight | ok, I know a bit of python, though I dont care for it | 10:13 |
| lord_midnight | I know several other languages, but not c++ | 10:14 |
| lord_midnight | I can block out psuedo code though | 10:14 |
| GeofftheMedio | ok... congratulations? | 10:15 |
| lord_midnight | um, I was offering to help | 10:16 |
| GeofftheMedio | if you don't like python and don't know c++, there's no much you can do, unfortunately | 10:17 |
| lord_midnight | I can write python, I just dont care for it. Honestly, I have never worked on a project with other before, Im not sure what kind of task you would have me do | 10:18 |
| lord_midnight | what are some basic tasks in python that would help move things along ? | 10:20 |
| GeofftheMedio | python is used for AI scripting. anything the AI doesn't presently do, it could be made to do. how detailed you want this to be will determine whether its "basic" or not. | 10:22 |
| lord_midnight | keep going | 10:22 |
| lord_midnight | I could write a list of nested ifs that generally moved towards a goal or possible goals based on conditions | 10:23 |
| lord_midnight | if that what you need for ai | 10:23 |
| lord_midnight | like, is there a planet I can colonize -> do I have a ship _> give move order to ship to move to colony planet | 10:24 |
| lord_midnight | that sort of thing ? | 10:24 |
| GeofftheMedio | no. | 10:25 |
| GeofftheMedio | we don't need "pseudo code". we need code or scripts that actually do things. | 10:25 |
| lord_midnight | right, I could make that as python, and with a bit of help use your python api in it | 10:26 |
| lord_midnight | I looked it over some | 10:26 |
| lord_midnight | like what plans for the ai did you intend, a system that created a plan based on what it had ? | 10:27 |
| lord_midnight | or a set of personalities that tried to do certain types of things | 10:27 |
| GeofftheMedio | re: you could make it: check out the existing AI scripts | 10:28 |
| lord_midnight | set of personality archtypes is pretty easy | 10:28 |
| GeofftheMedio | you're describing things in very simple programming terms that suggest you haven't looked into it and/or don't know enough about what you're talking about | 10:28 |
| lord_midnight | probably, as long as there are functions to get information, I can make tests on that information, and issue commands that exist based on them | 10:29 |
| GeofftheMedio | AIs at this stage don't need personality. just basic function | 10:29 |
| lord_midnight | well, how do you want it to decide what to research first / | 10:29 |
| GeofftheMedio | the AI scripter needs to figure that out | 10:30 |
| GeofftheMedio | if I knew exactly how it should work, I could probably code it in a few hours. | 10:30 |
| GeofftheMedio | coding isn't the hard part | 10:30 |
| lord_midnight | ok, well, the set of personalities gives a set of choices to follow | 10:30 |
| lord_midnight | if its a militant ai, it goes for weapons, if its an explorer it goes for engines | 10:31 |
| GeofftheMedio | an irrelivant set. and having "personalities" would require a whole structure to decide on and use those personalities in other contexts. it's not appropriate now. | 10:31 |
| lord_midnight | ok | 10:31 |
| lord_midnight | I thikn MoO had them each enemy leader had a personality, why I asked | 10:31 |
| lord_midnight | also helps later in diplomacy | 10:32 |
| lord_midnight | it would randomly pick one, actually, 1 type from 2 lists, attitude, and policy | 10:33 |
| GeofftheMedio | if you want to discuss AI personalities, make a brainstorming thread | 10:34 |
| lord_midnight | are you asking me to evolve o.O ? | 10:36 |
| lord_midnight | I already have one post, could i be responsible for 2 ?? | 10:36 |
| GeofftheMedio | your apparent enthusiasm is nice, but this isn't a roleplaying project. use the forums as intended if you want to contribute. | 10:37 |
| GeofftheMedio | and spend some time reading them to check for previous discussions on subjects that interest you | 10:38 |
| lord_midnight | ok, Im sorry, I just have this sense of humour and a passion for games | 10:38 |
| lord_midnight | I will expand my ideas on the forum, we really should organize some weekly or monthly meetings on here, it is vitalizing for motivation | 10:39 |
| lord_midnight | $0.02 | 10:39 |
| GeofftheMedio | we have the forums. | 10:42 |
| GeofftheMedio | getting many people in IRC at once is impractical due to time zone differences, varying interest levels and schedules | 10:43 |
| lord_midnight | ok | 10:43 |
| lord_midnight | ok, I made an update post, and I made a basic explanatin of wat I was talking about | 12:02 |
| lord_midnight | what now ? | 12:02 |
| GeofftheMedio | you've given no indication that you've reviewed previous threads about AI and personalities thereof | 12:12 |
| GeofftheMedio | and you don't mention anything about the existing AI scripts | 12:12 |
| lord_midnight | Im going over some stuff now | 12:12 |
| lord_midnight | ok, I will clarify how I intend to use the existing ai api with the system I propose | 12:12 |
| lord_midnight | do you have links handy regarding the subject, or anything specific you want me to read ? | 12:13 |
| GeofftheMedio | http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35367#p35367 | 12:13 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3IAC> (at www.freeorion.org) | 12:13 |
| lord_midnight | is tpb a bot ? | 12:14 |
| GeofftheMedio | yes | 12:15 |
| lord_midnight | I was actually reading the same thread, lol | 12:15 |
| lord_midnight | I see a large trend to separate culture/race/etc from action | 12:21 |
| lord_midnight | also to have the ai exist as if it can only see what a live player would see | 12:21 |
| lord_midnight | I can structure with that in mind and thinks it a great idea. | 12:22 |
| lord_midnight | eleazar makes a point about the citizenry of a species reacting to AI actions | 12:24 |
| lord_midnight | it could be made to check a variable representing the likelyhood of revolt, though I think that comes later | 12:24 |
| lord_midnight | right now, I think what is needed is a system that lets the computer make some sensible actions beyond aimlessly building colonies and not researching or building ships | 12:25 |
| lord_midnight | the high level stuff I think comes later | 12:26 |
| lord_midnight | how much freedom do I have with variables ? can I make up attributes about an AI with little restriction ? | 12:27 |
| lord_midnight | or are they established and set | 12:27 |
| lord_midnight | I need to have some scales to work with to weight choices | 12:28 |
| GeofftheMedio | what "attributes" and "scales" do you need? | 12:33 |
| lord_midnight | um, Im not sure yet about all of them, but things like hostility, or "mood", research focus, research alternate, stuff | 12:48 |
| GeofftheMedio | no personality stuff in the AI. | 12:50 |
| lord_midnight | what do you mean ? | 12:51 |
| GeofftheMedio | read eleazar's posts in that thread | 12:51 |
| lord_midnight | I did | 12:51 |
| GeofftheMedio | "hostility" and "mood" aren't part of a strategy. | 12:52 |
| lord_midnight | Imaybe a better term is needed | 12:52 |
| lord_midnight | there is some scale, that determines how tolerant a player will be before outright attacking | 12:52 |
| lord_midnight | it weighs risk of defeat, and advantages it has against its general policies | 12:53 |
| GeofftheMedio | not if it's a "personality" thing. yes, if it's a strategic consideration. | 12:54 |
| lord_midnight | if provoking war is an set action, the player can trick the ai dancing around that condition, it needs to have some sway | 12:54 |
| GeofftheMedio | if there's a particular set of priorities you want to assign to various groups of techs or buildings, similar to what's already done for various resources, then fine, as long as it's motivated by something in-game or a selected plan | 12:54 |
| GeofftheMedio | there is no "provoking" at this stage. we don't have diplomacy yet. you're always at war. | 12:54 |
| lord_midnight | often, this is the attitude or mood of the enemy general, and it can be used against them, tricking an angry opponent into attacking foolishly, or play up against arrogance | 12:55 |
| lord_midnight | its needed | 12:55 |
| lord_midnight | at least in some aspect | 12:55 |
| GeofftheMedio | there is no in-game plot-based "enemy general". AIs are purely strategic and empires have no leaders, at least so far. | 12:57 |
| lord_midnight | hostility, is a scale the ai uses to gauge how far it will go, or allow an enemy to go, how hostile are those ships aproaching, what is our mood towards those people, | 12:57 |
| lord_midnight | ai player | 12:57 |
| GeofftheMedio | again: no diplomacy yet. you're always at war. enemy ships are always hostile. | 12:57 |
| lord_midnight | it helps keep the ai from doing the same thing all the time, it helps provide unpredictability | 12:58 |
| lord_midnight | ok, so everybody is always at warfrom day 1, no enemy ai will not attack you until you invade or destroy a ship ? | 12:59 |
| lord_midnight | they always just attack as soon as they see you, and not wait until you build too close ? | 12:59 |
| GeofftheMedio | in v0.4 | 12:59 |
| GeofftheMedio | an AI doesn't have to immediately attack any enemy empire it sees... it can be preoccupied with another war or decide that being defensive is better. | 13:00 |
| lord_midnight | right, I understand, so is it ok to leave a little room for the future ? you run basic plumbing before you pour concrete, then run it after it dries | 13:01 |
| lord_midnight | preoccupied, how to determine when to shift focus | 13:01 |
| lord_midnight | see, it needs some measure of threat, or benifit | 13:02 |
| lord_midnight | levels of worth and importance | 13:02 |
| lord_midnight | is it worth colonizing the small planet to get a mineral boost | 13:03 |
| GeofftheMedio | there's already a priority AI. expand on it if appropriate. | 13:03 |
| lord_midnight | you know python pretty good ? | 13:05 |
| GeofftheMedio | I can write simple programs and figure out anything else I need to know by googling | 13:07 |
| STalKer-X | GeofftheMedio: did tyreth permanently quit or is he just taking a long break? :-) | 13:29 |
| lord_midnight | http://royal.pastebin.com/m5fbfd2ba | 13:32 |
| tpb | Title: royal private pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at royal.pastebin.com) | 13:32 |
| lord_midnight | that was my final for python this spring | 13:32 |
| lord_midnight | give you some idea of my programming ability, I figure I may only understand the basics, but I understand them fairly well | 13:34 |
| lord_midnight | I have a dozen other small programs as well | 13:34 |
| lord_midnight | eleazar, he works on Batle for Wesnoth too right ? | 13:39 |
| lord_midnight | the api is pretty robust | 13:50 |
| lord_midnight | Id like to see a "distance to nearest planet owned by given empire", thats a pretty important number in threat assesment, but I guess it could be figured out in the script | 13:52 |
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| lord_midnight_ | I think my wife just turned on her laptop, killed stargate too | 14:17 |
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| lord_midnight_ | http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2816&p=37306#p37306 | 15:15 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3IES> (at www.freeorion.org) | 15:15 |
| lord_midnight_ | added some stuff, a basic turn sequence framework | 15:15 |
| lord_midnight_ | I will start placing api calls in that structure after I get up, Im going to bed in awhile | 15:16 |
| lord_midnight_ | how can I test python scripts for ai ? | 15:16 |
| GeofftheMedio | run the game | 15:43 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, is there some file I change ? | 15:43 |
| lord_midnight_ | is there a manual btw ? | 15:43 |
| GeofftheMedio | FreeOrion/default/AI/FreeOrionAI.py and any other .py files it uses | 15:46 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok | 15:46 |
| lord_midnight_ | thank you | 15:46 |
| GeofftheMedio | as usual, if you edit a post, nobody will see the changes | 15:46 |
| GeofftheMedio | and you seem to be under the impression there is no AI at all yet | 15:47 |
| GeofftheMedio | this is not the case | 15:47 |
| GeofftheMedio | incomplete manual: http://freeorion.org/index.php/V0.4_Quick_Play_Guide | 15:47 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3IF+> (at freeorion.org) | 15:47 |
| lord_midnight_ | no, I figured there was, will you walk me through this bit by bit sometime ? Im going to read it now | 15:47 |
| lord_midnight_ | read that | 15:48 |
| GeofftheMedio | no, I won't. figure it out and/or read the relevant forum threads | 15:49 |
| lord_midnight_ | :) | 15:50 |
| GeofftheMedio | if proposing an AI framework, it would be better to acknowledge the current system. otherwise, it appears you haven't bothered to learn what already exists. which apparnetly you haven't. | 15:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | this is good, it is starting to give me ideas | 15:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | like I see you have most stuff working, so what I was talking about is half done, more than really | 15:54 |
| lord_midnight_ | read main AI, just read research ai | 15:54 |
| GeofftheMedio | I don't need a play by play | 15:54 |
| lord_midnight_ | looks like you have it doing things, but not making a lot of decisions right ? | 15:55 |
| lord_midnight_ | I want to work on the decisions stuff if thats all right | 15:55 |
| lord_midnight_ | like, Im looking at the research ai, and it looks to me like it just researches tech in order of cost, lowest to highest, with no other preference. is that correct ? | 15:58 |
| kroddnoMobil | correct | 16:05 |
| kroddnoMobil | its just a simple implementation to have an AI to research instead of doing nothing :-) | 16:06 |
| lord_midnight_ | right right, ok so Im talking about the part that says research ship techs for two levels so we can get a new weapon because we are at war | 16:06 |
| kroddnoMobil | that's a very long term question to solve | 16:07 |
| lord_midnight_ | um, its tedious, not hard | 16:08 |
| lord_midnight_ | someone has to write a bunch of big lists of conditions right ? | 16:08 |
| lord_midnight_ | thats the long part of doing the ai yeah ? | 16:09 |
| lord_midnight_ | a bunch of conditions make certain specifics happen, others alter values, that when they are within certain ranges, make other conditions be true or false, etc | 16:11 |
| lord_midnight_ | I can do that | 16:11 |
| lord_midnight_ | priority ai looks promising | 16:12 |
| lord_midnight_ | like, in here, a tyrant would lower food production to the point of killing people, to produce ships to win a battle | 16:17 |
| lord_midnight_ | a defender would not | 16:18 |
| lord_midnight_ | this is a pretty important file, a lot could be done in here | 16:19 |
| lord_midnight_ | basic preference could be done by giving a priority a modifier, multiplying it by 1.14 or such, so unless another was pressing, it would chose that more often | 16:21 |
| kroddnoMobil | please post that "brainstorming" at the forum | 16:24 |
| kroddnoMobil | here it will be lost | 16:24 |
| lord_midnight_ | k | 16:24 |
| GeofftheMedio | forget about what various personalties would do. it's not relevant now, and possibly ever. | 16:27 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, so plans ? strategies ? | 16:28 |
| lord_midnight_ | what do you call the different ways ai will act ? | 16:28 |
| lord_midnight_ | when two sparate instances of the ai are presented with the same circumstances, they should be able to act differently, what are you calling the reasons for those differences ? | 16:30 |
| kroddnoMobil | maybe its a good idea just to programm a good AI which will act clever ;-) | 16:31 |
| kroddnoMobil | how you do that may not interest most of us | 16:31 |
| lord_midnight_ | if it doesnt, then it acts the same way every time, which means y9u can figure out its pattern, which means you can beat it easily, everytime, which is boring | 16:32 |
| lord_midnight_ | its the differences, the mistakes and flaws and unpredictability that makes it interesting | 16:32 |
| kroddnoMobil | thats no problem I think, as deterministique (is that the english word?) is influenced by many factors | 16:36 |
| lord_midnight_ | sure | 16:36 |
| kroddnoMobil | As long as each game has other systems and planets, the AI will not react the same | 16:36 |
| kroddnoMobil | that's how most AI work and you can figure out how they behave in almost every game | 16:36 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, so in chess, I have three openings, kings pawn, a knight, or the knights pawn for a grob | 16:37 |
| kroddnoMobil | And if you have a good deterministic AI, you can add some random stuff or even "errors" which will make the AI gameplay unique | 16:37 |
| lord_midnight_ | its the opening move, its always the same | 16:38 |
| lord_midnight_ | now in FO, the galaxy may be different, by circumstances will be similar | 16:38 |
| lord_midnight_ | how o chose | 16:38 |
| kroddnoMobil | its the same with human players too | 16:39 |
| kroddnoMobil | you will always pick one strategy | 16:39 |
| kroddnoMobil | search for a second planet to be colonized - reseach xy - build new ship | 16:40 |
| lord_midnight_ | research what ? | 16:40 |
| lord_midnight_ | a balance of everything in order, or industry for 3 levels ? | 16:41 |
| lord_midnight_ | or do I take research, and try to get the advantage there | 16:42 |
| lord_midnight_ | for me as a person, it is mood | 16:42 |
| lord_midnight_ | for ai, it can be something different | 16:42 |
| lord_midnight_ | but if its just one ai, that is always the same, it is easily twarted | 16:43 |
| lord_midnight_ | the best is a blend | 16:43 |
| STalKer-X | FO has different victory conditions, right? | 16:45 |
| kroddnoMobil | victory conditions? only eliminate the others | 16:46 |
| GeofftheMedio | picking what to focus on in-game is part of picking a strategy. | 16:47 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeofftheMedio | 16:47 | |
| lord_midnight_ | I just dont know how else to get an ai that will loan you money for protection from an aggressive advesary, then when you attack it or refuse to battle for it, loans money to the other guy to kill you | 16:47 |
| STalKer-X | kroddnoMobil: well, it is planned that there will be other victory conditions besides domination :-) | 16:48 |
| STalKer-X | GeofftheMedio: did tyreth permanently quit or is he just taking a long break? :-p | 16:48 |
| GeofftheMedio | tyreth is gone indefinitely | 16:49 |
| lord_midnight_ | so is FO on hold, or is someoe orchestrating in his place ? | 16:49 |
| GeofftheMedio | the presence of tyreth has no effect on anyone else working on the project | 16:50 |
| GeofftheMedio | or rather, his absence | 16:50 |
| lord_midnight_ | k | 16:50 |
| GeofftheMedio | presumably his presence would have some effect | 16:50 |
| lord_midnight_ | is FO owned by anyone ? | 16:50 |
| GeofftheMedio | no | 16:50 |
| GeofftheMedio | AIs don't need to have agendas or seek revenge | 16:50 |
| lord_midnight_ | it could if youll let me | 16:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | :) | 16:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | Ill try | 16:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | lol | 16:51 |
| GeofftheMedio | you say you read eleazar's thread, but it doens't seem to have sunk in | 16:51 |
| GeofftheMedio | the agendas and revenge seeking and such will come from populations | 16:51 |
| lord_midnight_ | it did, I am not talking about species personality, Im talking about player personality | 16:51 |
| GeofftheMedio | that's my point | 16:52 |
| lord_midnight_ | elaborate please | 16:53 |
| lord_midnight_ | your talking about point 2 rigfht ? | 16:55 |
| GeofftheMedio | http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35435#p35435 | 16:56 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3IGS> (at www.freeorion.org) | 16:56 |
| GeofftheMedio | and the post before | 16:57 |
| lord_midnight_ | right, Im saying there are different ways to use those strengths, and Im not talking about racial ideoligies | 16:57 |
| lord_midnight_ | Im talking about choosing between overall strategies, and plans that take several turns, or even hundreds of turns, | 16:58 |
| lord_midnight_ | some of it is situational, but some of it comes from a script, Im just talking about having some weighted scripts for variety | 16:59 |
| lord_midnight_ | I think it will grant more replayability, and further immersion, but if you dont want me to bother I wont | 17:00 |
| GeofftheMedio | AIs can have a few different strategy options to choose from. it's not a matter of "replayability" or "immersion", however. | 17:00 |
| lord_midnight_ | Its difficult, Im sure we are using terms with different meanings to each other, you ever read any thing on "artificial stupidity" ? how perfect ai was too easy to spot ? | 17:02 |
| GeofftheMedio | high level options. focus on growth and ground troops. focus on research and tech-derived bonuses. focus on buildings and production output. focus on naval force projection. focus on naval defense fleets. focus on naval disruption fleets. | 17:02 |
| GeofftheMedio | this isn't chess. | 17:03 |
| lord_midnight_ | so there is never a player that is more advanced technologically and wants to help you ? | 17:03 |
| GeofftheMedio | there might be races that want that | 17:05 |
| lord_midnight_ | a peaecful gardener you have to protect ? | 17:06 |
| lord_midnight_ | I want to let them encounter more than just warmongers | 17:07 |
| GeofftheMedio | there could be in game content providing motivation to do so, as part of an event or campaign, or due to population / faction / race desiring it | 17:07 |
| GeofftheMedio | for v0.4, there is no diplomacy. only better strategy to win via combat / production / research is needed. | 17:08 |
| GeofftheMedio | when later game features are added, the AI can be updated | 17:08 |
| lord_midnight_ | not just the races though, Im talking about having an ai player, that is playing the game just to have fun | 17:08 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, so a lot of what Im talking about is a long ways away | 17:08 |
| lord_midnight_ | it doesnt really care if it beats you, but it will put up some challenge, it will win if you let it | 17:09 |
| lord_midnight_ | idk, just thinking I guess | 17:10 |
| lord_midnight_ | like, in your example, of combat/production/research, how does it pick if more than one can win, say they are the same work/cost/number of turns/ how does it pick ? | 17:13 |
| GeofftheMedio | doesn't matter | 17:16 |
| lord_midnight_ | so it always just makes the most efficient move ? | 17:18 |
| GeofftheMedio | or picks a strategy to work towards among the options if there's no particular reason to do something else | 17:19 |
| lord_midnight_ | randomly ? | 17:20 |
| lord_midnight_ | knowing when to switch between the course of action, to sometimes build ships, and other factories and research, those conditionals, it should try different things, it should make mistakes too | 17:30 |
| lord_midnight_ | from the start of the game, is the ai trying to build a lot of ships and outnumber you en masse, or is it building a few ultra tech ships that are light years beyond you in tech ? this isnt just racial bonuses, its perspective of the player rigt | 17:33 |
| lord_midnight_ | ai needs to look around, see if it is located next to a slew of mineral rich planets, or if its on top of an ancient ruin | 17:34 |
| lord_midnight_ | lots of conditionals, that should all factor into a set of weighted values, similar to the priorites, sets of steps it can take to get certain advantages and techs itt tries to do in order, like if I go through all the steps on this list, I get Ion cannons, I need this many research to get ion cannons, where is a world I can make a research planet | 17:38 |
| lord_midnight_ | is the ai in this game even paying attention to reserch, or ist it just getting them one set of each branch at a time, and trying to just get as many planets as possible early, so it has high production mid game | 17:42 |
| lord_midnight_ | you cannot do everything in the first 8 turns, you have to chose something, then something else for several turns after that | 17:42 |
| lord_midnight_ | you should be able to bribe some ais, into servitude, but not others | 17:46 |
| lord_midnight_ | not races, instances of the ai | 17:47 |
| lord_midnight_ | like, if you have four ai players, in a big 100 star 4arm spiral, its going to come down a lot to luck, if they all do the same thing | 17:54 |
| lord_midnight_ | each instance, should favor certain conditions, and seek them | 17:54 |
| lord_midnight_ | instead of having a bunch of different set strategies, it creates them from a pool, based on not just race, but environment, and what other players have done/are doing | 17:56 |
| lord_midnight_ | maybe one ai tries to build lots of ships, another is trying to get lots of tech, the other two are teaming up | 18:01 |
| lord_midnight_ | in the next game they are fighting | 18:01 |
| lord_midnight_ | mood is perhaps a good choice, since it should change over time | 18:02 |
| lord_midnight_ | but even beyond how its acting at any given time there should be some cohesive pattern to its efforts in that game | 18:03 |
| lord_midnight_ | it tried to win by ______, it acted _______ | 18:04 |
| lord_midnight_ | was it a friendly Psion that tried to out vote me, or a mean Psion that tried to enslave me ? | 18:05 |
| lord_midnight_ | races can be played different ways | 18:05 |
| lord_midnight_ | Im going to have to make lists of what techs can be researched in certain amounts of turns, to see what quick research strategies there are, what weapons can be gotten to in a short amount of time, things like that | 18:08 |
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| lord_midnight_ | and to completely change the subject, when is terraforming going to work ? | 18:29 |
| lord_midnight_ | also, I will start with maybe getting ai to put buildings, and make highest mark ship before making grand ai archtypes | 18:33 |
| lord_midnight_ | it will need to do that in 4, so it can combat | 18:33 |
| GeofftheMedio | randomly *if there's no reason to choose a particular option* | 18:34 |
| GeofftheMedio | if there are mineral planets, then it would take that account and there could be reason to prefer a particular strategy or set of strategies | 18:34 |
| GeofftheMedio | terraforming is probably not necessary for the core game. it may be delayed until after v1.0 | 18:36 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, so uncoommenting ProductionAI.generate...() in the generateorders function, that will make the ai make attack shipthen ? | 18:41 |
| lord_midnight_ | wait, its listed down below there, why is it copmmented out in the other place ? | 18:47 |
| lord_midnight_ | its listed twice, Im giessing either it was overlooked or its there to make a note of something | 18:48 |
| lord_midnight_ | so the ai is building buildings, and making ships, but not moving them ? | 18:50 |
| STalKer-X | awww, i love terraforming :p | 18:57 |
| lord_midnight_ | all of the tech branches that dont work should be cheap/free | 19:04 |
| lord_midnight_ | Im on turn 256 for nothing,m trying to gte the last few | 19:04 |
| GeofftheMedio | ai ships explore and colonize | 19:08 |
| GeofftheMedio | and may attack, or that may be coincidence | 19:08 |
| GeofftheMedio | dfgdghvbcdxsdsfcvfgbdxghfbvcdxs | 19:09 |
| GeofftheMedio | (cleaning keyboard) | 19:09 |
| lord_midnight_ | alt: terraforming for the time being could give +4 to population the way habitation domes give +2 | 19:10 |
| lord_midnight_ | better than nothing | 19:10 |
| GeofftheMedio | not really worth adding if that's all it does | 19:11 |
| lord_midnight_ | lots of expensive techs that do nothing in the tree, though there sure are a lot of cool sounding things | 19:11 |
| GeofftheMedio | the tech tree and buildings need a lot of fleshing out, you might have noticed | 19:11 |
| lord_midnight_ | wouldve kept my tundra planert with minerals from dying | 19:11 |
| lord_midnight_ | even on double food it was losing pop | 19:11 |
| GeofftheMedio | if you want to work on creating a bunch more applications and buildings that have various effects, according to some reasonable plan, that would be helpful | 19:12 |
| lord_midnight_ | almost had enough from domes, if I couldve had a bonus from Tform.... | 19:12 |
| GeofftheMedio | having higher max population won't prevent a planet from losing populatino due to having health below 20 | 19:12 |
| GeofftheMedio | which is probably what your tunda planet had | 19:12 |
| lord_midnight_ | I can certainly do that | 19:12 |
| lord_midnight_ | um, 15 I think, and my exodus monument gave +0 | 19:12 |
| lord_midnight_ | why couldnt it have been kept alive ? | 19:13 |
| lord_midnight_ | oor my eccentric terran, that I could not get to build anything, even with my super industrial centres | 19:14 |
| lord_midnight_ | etc | 19:14 |
| lord_midnight_ | the point of all the techs was to make it so I could make these planets work | 19:15 |
| GeofftheMedio | things aren't really balanced yet | 19:15 |
| lord_midnight_ | even if its just numeric bonuses, they should give benifit | 19:15 |
| lord_midnight_ | I understand, then the useless filler should be extra cheap | 19:16 |
| lord_midnight_ | so I can enjoy the game without it being soi slow for nothing | 19:16 |
| lord_midnight_ | it is playable, it is even fun in its current state | 19:16 |
| lord_midnight_ | Im pretty tired atm, tomorrow I might try modding some scripts and getting the ai to do stuff | 19:17 |
| lord_midnight_ | like trying to send at least one ship to all inhabited worlds, one attack ship | 19:17 |
| lord_midnight_ | even distribution of firepower | 19:18 |
| lord_midnight_ | when you say buildings, you mean things like Arcology: gives +2 max population, or Hydroponic Farms: Planet produces +1 food, stackable | 19:20 |
| lord_midnight_ | also, deleting ship designs and selling buildings are not done, both irksome, but Im sure not important, | 19:22 |
| GeofftheMedio | builfings are onjects on planets that are created using an empire production | 19:22 |
| lord_midnight_ | yoiu said come up with | 19:22 |
| lord_midnight_ | you want me to start a list ? | 19:23 |
| lord_midnight_ | is building limit on a planet based on its size/habitability ? | 19:23 |
| lord_midnight_ | should be, and with eco friendly architecture etc, should impact food production | 19:24 |
| lord_midnight_ | without eco... | 19:24 |
| GeofftheMedio | script the buildings and add stringtable entries | 19:24 |
| lord_midnight_ | Um, I dont know what that means, but Ill write up a dozen for review and you can show me ? | 19:25 |
| lord_midnight_ | I opened buildings.txt I am assuming making said ideas look like that | 19:26 |
| lord_midnight_ | and the associated entries in eng_stringtables.txt | 19:27 |
| lord_midnight_ | and run them through a language translator ? or there a language team ? | 19:27 |
| lord_midnight_ | Ill build a bunch and bring them to you. tomorrow I should have a dozen | 19:28 |
| GeofftheMedio | yes, you need to add to buildings.txt (for buildings) or techs.txt (for techs) and eng_stringtable.txt (for in-game strings). you don't need to translate new strings. that's a translator's job | 19:29 |
| lord_midnight_ | Ill open a few save games and get out my notebook, spend a cpl hours getting them together | 19:29 |
| lord_midnight_ | Im off for now guys, Ill see you after I sleep | 19:29 |
| GeofftheMedio | Ideally add buildings where there aren't any in the tech tree now. they need to be unlocked by adding appropriate application techs as well. | 19:29 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, Ill look through stuff that does nothing and could have a sensible building. | 19:30 |
| lord_midnight_ | um, how exactly do spaceports stack ? | 19:31 |
| lord_midnight_ | shipyard rather | 19:31 |
| GeofftheMedio | they don't really... you can build more, but it doesn't make any difference after the first in a system | 19:40 |
| lord_midnight_ | ok, I have 34 on one planet :) | 19:44 |
| lord_midnight_ | it said they stack to increase production | 19:44 |
| STalKer-X | probably an error in the description | 19:49 |
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