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| llnz | bbl, home time | 00:37 |
|---|---|---|
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| Landon | nash: replied to your comment | 01:53 |
| nash | Landon: vcool - will look shortly (in meeting) | 01:58 |
| CIA-1 | llnz libtpproto-cpp * rc4a9b4faa9f5 /tpproto/ (object.cpp object.h): | 02:01 |
| CIA-1 | Connect up the ObjectParameters and ObjectParameterGroups in Object. | 02:01 |
| CIA-1 | ObjectParameters should now be usable. | 02:01 |
| llnz | :-) | 02:02 |
| llnz | bbs, dinner | 02:02 |
| * llnz is back | 02:38 | |
| CIA-1 | nash galaxie * r546736ac8b0e /Makefile: Makefile: Fix the main make rule | 02:46 |
| CIA-1 | nash galaxie * rf237a364d7b3 / (Makefile galaxie.c gui_window.h server.c): Don't build EWL/GUI for now. | 02:46 |
| nash | Gee that thing is fast | 02:46 |
| nash | it messaged here before git had printed it had pushed | 02:46 |
| llnz | when it works, it works well | 02:47 |
| nash | Indeed | 02:47 |
| nash | didi`: You areoung? | 02:47 |
| nash | didi`: You around even | 02:47 |
| nash | didi`: If so this tag is for you: Gui-Free-Build | 02:47 |
| * llnz works on the research frame proposal | 02:55 | |
| Landon | ah darn, jmtan isn't here :\ I don't suppose anyone would know how to use pdb with the 3d client, would they? | 02:55 |
| Landon | the client sucks my focus when I hit the point where I set the trace | 02:56 |
| tansell | Landon, jmtan would know | 03:05 |
| tansell | I would recommend emailing him | 03:06 |
| tansell | and then putting the result in the wiki :) | 03:06 |
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| * llnz updates the research frame proposal - nearly there! | 03:18 | |
| llnz | do we want/need choices between prerequsites, for example (a || b) && c, currently only have 'and' preerequsite list | 03:20 |
| tansell | I think an OR could be useful | 03:20 |
| nash | OR is very useful | 03:21 |
| Landon | "guns" OR "diplomacy" => "world peace" :p | 03:21 |
| llnz | list of (list of choices) ? wasteful in the normal case... only one item in list of choices means no choice and twice the bytes | 03:21 |
| llnz | hummm... | 03:22 |
| * nash is off home | 03:22 | |
| llnz | cya nash | 03:22 |
| nash | llnz: Bytes are nothing | 03:22 |
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| llnz | maybe have two lists, normal prereqs and list of list of choices | 03:23 |
| tansell | dunno | 03:25 |
| tansell | reusing things is good :) | 03:25 |
| llnz | tansell: the overall proposal is reusing things | 03:26 |
| llnz | this is inside the technology description | 03:27 |
| tansell | do you have exclusions? IE You can have A || B but not both | 03:27 |
| llnz | i have conflicts, can't research if have any of [x, y, z] | 03:28 |
| tansell | I would expect that this stuff has a lot in common with the design stuff | 03:29 |
| llnz | i don't really want scheme in here, because it will be run often | 03:29 |
| llnz | it's a much simpler problem | 03:30 |
| llnz | nearly linear | 03:30 |
| tansell | run often? | 03:33 |
| llnz | the design stuff is only done on add design and modify design | 03:33 |
| llnz | in research, it may need to be run everytime the player requests a Research frame | 03:33 |
| tansell | this stuff would only be run when a person requests a new research? | 03:34 |
| llnz | it may be cachable though | 03:34 |
| llnz | no, any research | 03:34 |
| tansell | well it's not going to change | 03:34 |
| llnz | like when they want to see what it currently set | 03:34 |
| llnz | as well as when they set their new research | 03:35 |
| tansell | which is the same as designs right? | 03:35 |
| llnz | no, as i said, it's only run once - when the design is added or modified | 03:36 |
| llnz | all later requests use the stored values | 03:36 |
| llnz | stored in the database | 03:39 |
| tansell | so why can't research the same way? | 03:40 |
| llnz | i suppose it could... | 03:41 |
| llnz | but still no reason to use scheme | 03:41 |
| llnz | scheme integration is ugly and if I could drop it I would | 03:42 |
| llnz | if it wasn't going to be so much code I would replace guile and mzscheme with something written in c++ to calculate it directly | 03:43 |
| llnz | a mini scheme interpreter | 03:43 |
| tansell | scheme has been well tested and it means we don't have to maintain yet another language | 03:47 |
| llnz | i don't think we need another language | 03:48 |
| tansell | and can be calculated both client/server side | 03:48 |
| llnz | apt gets on without needing to embed a programming language in each deb package | 03:48 |
| llnz | and that is exactly the level of complexity we are dealing with in Research | 03:53 |
| tansell | llnz, the apt stuff is pretty much turning complete | 03:57 |
| tansell | you can write a suduko solver in it | 03:57 |
| llnz | in the deb metadata? depends and conflicts fields? | 03:58 |
| tansell | yeah | 03:59 |
| llnz | actually, i suppose you could | 04:00 |
| tansell | http://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/ | 04:00 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/2+TT> (at algebraicthunk.net) | 04:00 |
| llnz | neat | 04:11 |
| tansell | my theory on config options is to embed a "real" language now | 04:13 |
| tansell | otherwise you'll end up keep adding features until you have some horror of a real language anyway | 04:14 |
| llnz | well... that's fine for python, perl and sh | 04:15 |
| JLP | good morning everyone | 04:32 |
| llnz | hi JLP | 04:33 |
| * llnz ponders | 06:12 | |
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| llnz | later all | 07:00 |
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| Vadtec | g'mornin | 08:37 |
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| Landon | hey jmtan, I'm about to leave for class in a few minutes, but I was wondering how you used pdb with the 3d client | 08:43 |
| Landon | when I hit a set_trace, all input except the mouse stops working _everywhere_ | 08:44 |
| jmtan | did you try alt-tab? sorry it seems the input capturing has different behaviour depending on your os | 08:44 |
| jmtan | what os are you running on? | 08:45 |
| jmtan | i'll email you, gotta go for dinner too | 08:46 |
| Landon | I'm running ubuntu | 08:47 |
| Landon | alt-tab works to get out of it before it starts the trace | 08:47 |
| Landon | but after, nothing | 08:47 |
| jmtan | which window manager are you using? | 08:47 |
| jmtan | this is a weird solution, but you can try switching workspaces | 08:48 |
| Landon | I'm just using gnome right now | 08:50 |
| Landon | yeah, I take advantage of that often, but it doesn't work to take focus away (even when it';s running normally) | 08:50 |
| Landon | I've tried going to a tty and back as well | 08:50 |
| jmtan | are you using compositing? | 08:52 |
| Landon | yeah | 08:54 |
| Landon | I need to be going now, I'll check back after class | 08:56 |
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| bddebian | Heya | 10:05 |
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| sanchan89 | I am having some trouble downloading the tp-pyogre-client for windows. It says after sometime that the source file could not be read and quits | 10:47 |
| jmtan | hi sanchan, could you state the error message? | 10:48 |
| sanchan89 | I used the firefox default dloader. It didn't detect the file size but somewhere around 15MB later, it gave the message "source file cuold not be read" and aborted | 10:50 |
| jmtan | it seems that the download must have cut off somewhere, the full zip should be around 22 megs | 10:51 |
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| jmtan | i mean, the setup exe | 10:51 |
| jmtan | could you try redownloading the file? | 10:52 |
| sanchan89 | O! The part file is 20M. I tried a couple of times again. Using the DTA plugin, it resulted in Network TimeOut Exception. Something similar happend a couple of days back. I'll try again | 10:53 |
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| * vivri used to be vi1985. | 12:46 | |
| vivri | hi | 12:47 |
| verhoevenv | Heya vivri. | 12:52 |
| * verhoevenv used to be Iwanowitch | 12:52 | |
| vivri | verhoevenv: hey! just dropped in to say hi, havent been here in a while | 12:57 |
| ezod | hey vivri | 12:59 |
| vivri | hi ezod. | 12:59 |
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| alanp | hello | 15:46 |
| didi` | Hi. | 15:58 |
| alanp | how are you? | 16:06 |
| didi` | alanp: Fine. | 16:08 |
| didi` | alanp: And you? | 16:08 |
| didi` | alanp: Actually, I am going away for a while. See you later. | 16:09 |
| alanp | pretty good | 16:10 |
| alanp | i'll see you later | 16:10 |
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| llnz | morning all | 16:23 |
| ezod | hey llnz | 16:24 |
| llnz | hi ezod | 16:24 |
| ezod | i'll get on the libtpproto-cpp doc soon | 16:25 |
| llnz | cool | 16:25 |
| alanp | hey | 16:34 |
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| didi` | nash: You commit did the trick. It now compiles. | 19:18 |
| nash | didi`: :-) | 19:19 |
| nash | Yeah | 19:19 |
| nash | It's essentially in library form | 19:19 |
| nash | As an aside however... You really need to convince about Neural nets... or change your strategy | 19:19 |
| didi` | nash: Hummm... Really? Maybe I am not succeeding being clear. | 19:22 |
| nash | may well be... | 19:24 |
| didi` | nash: Well. Help me doing it better. :-) | 19:24 |
| nash | Okay, I'm not an expert on the field by any stretch of hte imagination. | 19:25 |
| didi` | nash: But it would be great, isn't it? ;-) | 19:26 |
| nash | But the number of inputs & outputs scares me. | 19:26 |
| nash | Can you control that? and keep computation power down to a reasonable level? | 19:26 |
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| nash | Yes, but will it work is a more fundamental question ;-) | 19:26 |
| nash | didi`: We'd love you to do it in your own time... but for SoC we need to see something we know will work | 19:26 |
| didi` | nash: Like I stated in the proposal, this is a difficult game to predict. I think no one can really say if something you take a long or short time. With AI it is maybe even worse. | 19:28 |
| nash | didi`: I don't think you've nailed down a game either? | 19:28 |
| didi` | nash: I know it's a risky game. But I really think it is worth. | 19:28 |
| didi` | nash: Sorry. "nailed down"? | 19:28 |
| nash | didi`: But ballpark... minisec normally has say 100 stars, with 2 types of build objects, 4 players say, and say 100 ships... thats 100000 combinations striaght way | 19:29 |
| nash | Which ruleset are you targetting? | 19:29 |
| didi` | nash: Minisec. | 19:29 |
| didi` | nash: It is not the combinations who matters but what data you will use. Like say, you will not eat each one of the 100 ships, but you will say "player B has 100 ships". That is one data, not 100. | 19:31 |
| nash | But position has to be taken into account | 19:31 |
| nash | And type of ship | 19:32 |
| didi` | nash: Not necessary. | 19:32 |
| nash | You need to react differently to a 100 battleships then 100 frigates | 19:32 |
| didi` | nash: It _could_ be. | 19:32 |
| didi` | nash: Yes, probably the types of the ships is a better data than its position. | 19:33 |
| didi` | nash: Maybe, just a quadrantic of the map is important, not all of then. | 19:33 |
| didi` | nash: Passed, like say, 20 turns of flight, I am no more interest. | 19:33 |
| nash | 100 ships engaging 100 enemy ships is not important; 200 ships (2 different fleets) converging on homeworld are different | 19:34 |
| didi` | nash: Indeed. But you have little data here too: X fragates, Y battleships, Z scouts coming. That could be it. | 19:35 |
| nash | didi`: You need to put this up on a wiki, and start to give a better plan | 19:36 |
| didi` | nash: Ok. | 19:36 |
| nash | Problem is there are a _lot_ of questions to answer. And you have only done some. | 19:37 |
| nash | And I mean a lot | 19:37 |
| didi` | I will happily answer them. | 19:37 |
| nash | Basically an adventurous proposal needs strong support | 19:37 |
| nash | didi`: But you need to start going: Here are the inputs | 19:37 |
| nash | "Extraordinary Claims need Extraordinary Evidence" | 19:38 |
| nash | This will include things like estimates of size and computational time. | 19:38 |
| didi` | nash: The last thing will be a problem. I know AI. It is not a thing that you can predict this way. But I will try my best. | 19:40 |
| nash | Then you need to explain why... and why it WON'T be a problem | 19:40 |
| didi` | nash: Ok. | 19:40 |
| nash | If your AI takes 2 hours of computation to generate a turn in the simplest game... it's essentially useless | 19:41 |
| cherez | Unless the game is Diplomacy. :P | 19:46 |
| nash | cherez: If it takes 2 hours to compute a new move in diplomacy there is a problem... | 19:50 |
| cherez | I wish I'd gotten to play Diplomacy with you rather than the guys I usually played with. | 20:11 |
| zzorn | hm | 20:17 |
| zzorn | depends on the ai | 20:17 |
| zzorn | if the search space is too large, heuristics are generally used | 20:17 |
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| mithro | tote: ping? | 20:27 |
| mithro | Greywhind: ping? | 20:28 |
| Greywhind | mithro: pong | 20:35 |
| mithro | Greywhind: so still waiting for a response to the GSoC comments | 20:35 |
| Greywhind | mithro: i'd already responded to all but the last one by updating the page | 20:35 |
| Greywhind | the last one, i've been having trouble trying to figure out how to get my client to connect to my local server | 20:36 |
| Greywhind | and due to school work, i haven't had much time at all to look into it | 20:36 |
| Greywhind | but i might be able to look now | 20:36 |
| Greywhind | any idea if this could cause problems: | 20:44 |
| Greywhind | http://rafb.net/p/tibhuJ91.html | 20:45 |
| tpb | Title: Nopaste - No description (at rafb.net) | 20:45 |
| tansell | Greywhind, you should be able to run it without installing | 20:46 |
| Greywhind | i am running it without installing | 20:46 |
| didi` | nash: Is there a special place to create the wiki page at the TP wiki? | 20:46 |
| Greywhind | what's the default port for the server? | 20:46 |
| tansell | 6923 i think | 20:48 |
| tansell | didi`, depends what for | 20:48 |
| didi` | tansell: a proposal | 20:48 |
| tansell | didi`, if it's a gsoc proposal, put it under the Google_Summer_of_Code/Proposals2009 | 20:49 |
| didi` | tansell: Thanks. | 20:50 |
| tansell | example http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Proposals2009/xenozephyr | 20:50 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/35T+> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 20:50 |
| Greywhind | yeah, it's still saying it can't connect to the server, and i've tried using the specific port, my internal ip, 127.0.0.1, and opening my firewall | 20:51 |
| Greywhind | what version of tpserver-cpp should I be running for tp04 | 20:52 |
| tansell | Greywhind, if you have that error | 20:52 |
| tansell | it means it has not start up the network yet | 20:52 |
| Greywhind | ah | 20:52 |
| tansell | ./tpserver/tpserver-cpp -d -C ./quickstart-sample.conf | 20:52 |
| Greywhind | gives the same errors about guile and libtpmzscheme | 20:52 |
| Greywhind | which is odd, since i know i installed one of the two after it refused to compile | 20:53 |
| Greywhind | let me try recompiling, see if i missed something | 20:53 |
| tansell | Greywhind, you clone from git right? | 20:53 |
| Greywhind | yeah | 20:53 |
| llnz | quickstart-*.conf don't work unless the server is installed | 20:53 |
| llnz | you will need to edit them to make them work without installing | 20:54 |
| Greywhind | ah | 20:54 |
| Greywhind | i can install, i guess | 20:54 |
| tansell | llnz, oh? | 20:54 |
| llnz | tansell: because of where the library/modules are | 20:55 |
| llnz | the quickstart files assume tpserver-cpp will find them, which it can't until they are installed | 20:55 |
| Greywhind | ok, installing it fixed the error. thanks, llnz | 20:57 |
| Greywhind | still says it can't connect to the host, though | 20:58 |
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| Greywhind | http://rafb.net/p/W2cUg652.html | 21:01 |
| tpb | Title: Nopaste - No description (at rafb.net) | 21:01 |
| alanp | ahoy | 21:01 |
| ezod | hey alanp | 21:02 |
| alanp | what's up? | 21:02 |
| alanp | I immediately regret my decision not to go to Detroit | 21:02 |
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| ezod | big party? | 21:02 |
| alanp | indeed | 21:03 |
| Vadtec | evening all | 21:04 |
| alanp | hello | 21:04 |
| ezod | Greywhind: i may be missing something here, but could you use the single player stuff to do your server config and connect the client to it? | 21:04 |
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| Greywhind | no, ezod - i'm on the tp04 branch | 21:08 |
| Greywhind | singleplayer hasn't been merged into it yet | 21:08 |
| ezod | singleplayer didn't touch too many files, maybe we could merge them? | 21:09 |
| Greywhind | it's definitely on my to-do list | 21:09 |
| Greywhind | but i'd prefer to see what the current state is first | 21:09 |
| Greywhind | if that's possible | 21:09 |
| Greywhind | so i know if i break anything :P | 21:09 |
| llnz | Greywhind: what is quickstart-sample? | 21:19 |
| Greywhind | not sure, it's a default config | 21:20 |
| Greywhind | does the same thing if i run quickstart-risk-random.conf though | 21:20 |
| Greywhind | maybe i'm running the wrong server version? | 21:23 |
| Greywhind | what's the one with tp04? | 21:23 |
| mithro | it should just be a | 21:24 |
| mithro | git clone git://git.thousandparsec.net/tp/tpserver-cpp.git | 21:24 |
| Greywhind | ok, that's what i did | 21:24 |
| Greywhind | are there some confs that don't use tp04? maybe i'm running one of those? | 21:25 |
| mithro | cd tpserver-cpp; ./autogen.sh; ./configure --prefix=/opt/tpserver-cpp; make -j3; sudo make install | 21:25 |
| mithro | Greywhind: this is not a tp04 thing | 21:25 |
| Greywhind | hmm | 21:25 |
| mithro | cd /opt/tpserver-cpp/bin | 21:25 |
| mithro | ./tpserver-cpp -d -C ~/tpserver-cpp/quickstart-blah.conf | 21:25 |
| Greywhind | did you take a look at the log of the tpserver run i put up? | 21:26 |
| Greywhind | http://rafb.net/p/W2cUg652.html | 21:26 |
| tpb | Title: Nopaste - No description (at rafb.net) | 21:26 |
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| mithro | Greywhind: so that looks like it almost worked | 21:35 |
| mithro | Greywhind: there should be more stuff about loading a ruleset and stuff | 21:35 |
| mithro | Greywhind: your not using sample.conf right? | 21:35 |
| mithro | you are using the quickstart config? | 21:35 |
| Greywhind | mithro: i was using quickstart | 21:36 |
| Greywhind | i also ran it with quickstart-risk-random.conf and the same result | 21:36 |
| mithro | Greywhind: that is all the output you are getting? | 21:37 |
| Greywhind | yes | 21:37 |
| mithro | oh | 21:37 |
| mithro | it's -C | 21:37 |
| mithro | not -c | 21:37 |
| Greywhind | oh | 21:37 |
| Greywhind | damn :P | 21:37 |
| mithro | llnz: why was it not complaining about not finding a config file? | 21:38 |
| Greywhind | that seems to have made a difference | 21:38 |
| Greywhind | yep - now i can connect | 21:38 |
| Greywhind | thanks :) | 21:38 |
| Greywhind | wow | 21:39 |
| Greywhind | it seems to be showing all the planets and wormholes correctly on the starmap | 21:39 |
| tansell | Greywhind, so that probably means you are not actually using the tp04 branch :) | 21:40 |
| tansell | if you check the output | 21:40 |
| Greywhind | tansell: heh. i probably ran the wrong client | 21:40 |
| tansell | it'll tell you what version the client/libraries are using | 21:40 |
| Greywhind | tansell: yep, switched to the wrong dir. silly me. | 21:40 |
| Greywhind | at least now i know what the map should look like | 21:41 |
| Greywhind | ok, yeah, it doesn't show any objects on the map | 21:42 |
| Greywhind | but it has all of them in the list on the right | 21:42 |
| tansell | I need to check I don't have any unpushed changes | 21:42 |
| tansell | because I think i managed to get something to display on the map | 21:42 |
| Greywhind | messages appear to work | 21:43 |
| Greywhind | there are no images for systems or planets | 21:43 |
| Greywhind | it seems that the "you have no objects" dialog is broken - it comes up when i do have objects | 21:44 |
| Greywhind | no orders panel comes up when i select a planet i own | 21:45 |
| Greywhind | objects without orders window doesn't show anything either | 21:45 |
| Greywhind | so i'm guessing the client is not detecting object ownership at all | 21:45 |
| tansell | sounds about right | 21:45 |
| Greywhind | search for objects by name works | 21:46 |
| Greywhind | message filters seem to work still | 21:47 |
| Vadtec | can anyone recommend a book on C++ that covers things like the std container classes (deque, list, map, etc) and C++ generally? the only C++ book i have is from 1994 so it doesnt cover anything useful | 21:49 |
| tansell | Greywhind, messages didn't change | 21:51 |
| Greywhind | well, that does explain why they work perfectly! :P | 21:51 |
| llnz | mithro: because he set it with -C | 21:56 |
| Greywhind | i've added a comment about the errors and problems that are evident so far | 21:56 |
| Greywhind | llnz: it didn't warn that the config was not found even when i tried incorrectly to set it with -c | 21:57 |
| Greywhind | (lowercase) | 21:57 |
| llnz | Greywhind: odd | 21:57 |
| Greywhind | http://rafb.net/p/W2cUg652.html | 21:57 |
| tpb | Title: Nopaste - No description (at rafb.net) | 21:57 |
| llnz | Vadtec: there is a good STL reference online | 21:57 |
| Greywhind | tansell: i have to go for now | 21:58 |
| mithro | Vadtec: there are multiple good ones online | 21:58 |
| llnz | Vadtec: http://www.sgi.com/tech/stl/ | 21:58 |
| tpb | Title: Standard Template Library Programmer's Guide (at www.sgi.com) | 21:58 |
| Greywhind | i'll be back | 21:58 |
| Greywhind | eventually | 21:58 |
| llnz | Greywhind: odd, i'll have a look | 21:58 |
| tansell | well heading to lunch | 21:59 |
| Greywhind | thanks for helping me get the server to work :P | 21:59 |
| Greywhind | i feel stupid for not noticing the capital C | 21:59 |
| Greywhind | oh well | 21:59 |
| Vadtec | i know there are good ones online | 22:01 |
| Vadtec | i just prefer books for when im on the go and dont have access to the net | 22:01 |
| Vadtec | and yes, ive been using the sgi site | 22:02 |
| llnz | Vadtec: i have "C++ from the Ground Up" in front of me here, not too bad, barely covers stl though | 22:04 |
| llnz | actually.... it does cover stl, i hadn't noticed that | 22:07 |
| Vadtec | hmmm | 22:09 |
| Vadtec | pass me the ISBN | 22:09 |
| llnz | 0-07-222897-0 | 22:10 |
| Vadtec | ty | 22:10 |
| Vadtec | ill see if my local hastings has a copy | 22:11 |
| llnz | by Herbert Schildt | 22:11 |
| Vadtec | good author | 22:11 |
| ezod | yeah, i think i originally learned c++ from a herbert schildt book | 22:11 |
| ezod | it was designed for people who are already good at c, pretty cool book | 22:11 |
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| llnz | hi paulmcnett | 22:34 |
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| jnengland77 | hi all | 22:53 |
| llnz | hi jnengland77 | 22:53 |
| jnengland77 | mithro: neat google talk. | 22:55 |
| jnengland77 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ct36u8RPIU | 22:55 |
| tpb | Title: YouTube - Gaming For Freedom (at www.youtube.com) | 22:55 |
| jnengland77 | I watched it the other day, but have been quite busy. | 22:59 |
| mithro | jnengland77: that is quite old now | 23:13 |
| jnengland77 | Yeah I know. It was still interesting. | 23:14 |
| jnengland77 | I liked the Austrian bit. :P | 23:16 |
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