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| dmpayton | hey mithro | 03:04 |
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| dmpayton | howdy nash | 05:02 |
| mithro | hey dmpayton | 05:03 |
| dmpayton | 'llo mithro | 05:04 |
| mithro | how goes ubuntu? | 05:04 |
| dmpayton | mithro: fun | 05:05 |
| dmpayton | installing and customizing still... | 05:05 |
| dmpayton | installing programs, I mean... ubuntu's been installed for hours now | 05:05 |
| nash | heyo dmpayton | 05:06 |
| nash | How is lfe? | 05:06 |
| dmpayton | nash: tons better, now that I'm not on windoze | 05:06 |
| nash | heh | 05:06 |
| nash | I had to use windows again today... Bloody annoying - how do people handle all the popups? | 05:07 |
| dmpayton | nash: what popups are you talking about? | 05:07 |
| nash | The things down the bottom right, the web browser game me like 4 dialog boxes to ok at connecting to my banks site | 05:08 |
| dmpayton | the icons in the bottom right are useful, depending on the app... | 05:09 |
| dmpayton | for when you want it off the taskbar, but don't want it closed | 05:10 |
| dmpayton | winamp and AIM were what made it useful | 05:10 |
| dmpayton | to me, anyways | 05:10 |
| dmpayton | nash, I'm assuming you were using IE for the web? | 05:11 |
| nash | yeah | 05:11 |
| dmpayton | bleugh. | 05:11 |
| dmpayton | IE is crap. | 05:12 |
| nash | My banks update made sure it only works with IE | 05:12 |
| nash | Not even firefox under windows | 05:12 |
| nash | major PITA | 05:12 |
| dmpayton | Wow. If my bank did that, I would seriously leave. | 05:12 |
| nash | Yeah - hard to do instantly however | 05:12 |
| dmpayton | O...kay | 05:14 |
| dmpayton | I just installed bittorrent, and now I can't find it. | 05:14 |
| nash | hash -r | 05:14 |
| dmpayton | ? | 05:15 |
| nash | At the prompt or in the menus? | 05:15 |
| dmpayton | it's a debian package. I double-clicked and it installed. | 05:15 |
| nash | The package is probably the command line client then - install deluge | 05:19 |
| nash | It's a gui, with some of the features of utorrent | 05:19 |
| dmpayton | nah, it's 5.0.7, downloaded from bittorrent.com | 05:21 |
| nash | dmpayton: I would seriously recommend you use the packages in your distro | 05:24 |
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| mithro | dmpayton_: use packages :P | 06:34 |
| mithro | downloading and installing via other methods is pretty bad under Linux :P | 06:34 |
| nash | Well it works fine - just hard to maintain | 07:32 |
| mithro | windows vista, the most annoying windows yet! | 08:27 |
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| llnz | just popping in to say hi | 09:05 |
| llnz | and see if anyone needs to talk to me | 09:05 |
| llnz | everyone must be busy of sleeping | 09:10 |
| llnz | s/of/or | 09:10 |
| llnz | grr... | 09:10 |
| * llnz wanders off | 09:10 | |
| llnz | later all | 09:10 |
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| mithro | dmpayton_: ping? | 09:15 |
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| mithro | nash: not in bed yet? | 09:38 |
| nash | mithro: HEading there now | 09:44 |
| nash | Anyway - sleep well ;-) | 09:44 |
| mithro | nash: you too | 09:44 |
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| dmpayton | Mornin' all. | 14:09 |
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| sijmen | mithro you there?! | 19:12 |
| sijmen | pleeeaase | 19:13 |
| sijmen | :P | 19:13 |
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| sijmen | arr to bad | 19:17 |
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| sijmen | nash, you're one of the SoC mentors, correct? | 19:40 |
| nash | sijmen: A) hello | 19:40 |
| nash | B) Yes ;-) | 19:40 |
| sijmen | oops forgot the handshake P HELO nash | 19:42 |
| sijmen | well, you probably I know I was veeery disappointed I didn't get in blah blah blah | 19:43 |
| sijmen | now.. I was reading my favourite tech news site | 19:43 |
| sijmen | and there I stumbled uppon "Programmeerzomer" which is Dutch for "Programming summer" | 19:44 |
| sijmen | it is, indeed, an initiative very, very similar to the SoC but on a much smaller scale. | 19:44 |
| sijmen | This is the website: http://www.programmeerzomer.nl , but there's one catch: it's Dutch | 19:45 |
| tpb | Title: programmeerzomer (at www.programmeerzomer.nl) | 19:45 |
| sijmen | The student gets ? 3,600 on success (which roughly equals $ 4,850) | 19:47 |
| sijmen | Now my question is, would TP be interested in mentoring? Deadline for applications (students and mentors) is June, 1, and coding is from June 11 to August 31 | 19:48 |
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| sijmen | I don't need an answer here and now.. but would be cool if you (and the others) thought about it | 19:49 |
| nash | sijmen: It was dissapointing not to be able to givbe out more positions | 19:49 |
| nash | BUt, hell yeah, we'd be interesting in a dutch summer of code | 19:50 |
| sijmen | nash, the part about being disappointed was not really serious :P | 19:50 |
| nash | Of course the catch is, none of us speak dutch :-/ | 19:50 |
| mithro | morning people | 19:50 |
| nash | sijmen: You were shortlisted | 19:50 |
| nash | It's just our shortlist was too long for 3 slots... | 19:51 |
| sijmen | I know.. I've already sent out an email asking whether a non-Dutch mentor would be okay | 19:51 |
| nash | heh | 19:51 |
| sijmen | yeah it was too bad, np though | 19:51 |
| nash | Hey - a bit of dutch exposure woudl be good. | 19:51 |
| mithro | 3 was a very small percentage of our short list | 19:51 |
| nash | And may get serious internationalisation would be good | 19:51 |
| sijmen | well.. | 19:52 |
| sijmen | the procedure is much easier than SoC (because of the way smaller scale) | 19:52 |
| sijmen | this is the join link (for students and mentors): http://www.programmeerzomer.nl/join | 19:52 |
| tpb | Title: programmeerzomer - Aanmelden (at www.programmeerzomer.nl) | 19:52 |
| mithro | atleast JLP is european :P | 19:53 |
| sijmen | top to bottom: initials, first name, last name, gender, address, zip/city (I'd add country), birth date, phone number, email address, educational institution (not sure why this is required for mentors), course, and motivation | 19:54 |
| sijmen | the motivation should contain the project (+url?) | 19:54 |
| nash | mithro: Can you find out what languages JLP speaks | 19:55 |
| nash | out of curisosity sijmen, what languages do you speak? | 19:55 |
| mithro | ~seen JLP | 19:55 |
| tpb | mithro: JLP was last seen in #tp 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 9 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <JLP> yup, i can try over the holidays now, have two free days, starting tomorrow | 19:55 |
| sijmen | nash, Dutch, English, and if needed I can read (but not write) French and German | 19:55 |
| sijmen | well.. that was a lot of info, should I put it in a mail or something? | 19:56 |
| nash | sijmen: Email is good for permenance... probably best to wait to see if they accept non-dutch organisations | 19:58 |
| sijmen | yeah thought so | 19:59 |
| sijmen | but I did apply anyway.. if TP is no option then I'll go with something else. here you don't apply for a project specifically, you just 'apply' | 20:00 |
| nash | okay - weird | 20:00 |
| nash | Then you just need to translate your SoC proposal | 20:00 |
| sijmen | heh, which one? | 20:00 |
| sijmen | not web-based.. Gtk and Cocoa remain. I'll see | 20:01 |
| mithro | sijmen: personally I would really prefer you to work on improving the tpclient-pywx :P | 20:23 |
| nash | Gtk# I'd prefer as it is a wider audience | 20:23 |
| nash | Nah - tpclient=pywx is too ugly | 20:23 |
| mithro | nash: it's less ugly then GTK :P | 20:23 |
| sijmen | what? :P | 20:23 |
| mithro | nash: atleast under Windows and Mac :) | 20:24 |
| nash | mithro: On the basis it _is_ gtk on my machine... means it is ugly | 20:24 |
| mithro | nash: so it would be equally as ugly as a gtk# client :P | 20:24 |
| sijmen | mithro, wait, wasn't it you who said the largest userbase of TP was Linux? | 20:24 |
| mithro | sijmen: it is | 20:25 |
| sijmen | anyhow.. the pywx client is ok, but not something that I'd like to put very much energy and time in | 20:25 |
| * nash notes user base currently == developers | 20:25 | |
| sijmen | heh exactly | 20:25 |
| * nash notes the solution to that is a non-trivial ruleset... | 20:26 | |
| nash | == (RTFS || MTSec) | 20:26 |
| mithro | sijmen: well, if you wrote a GTK# client, you would spend 50% of your time rewriting all the networking stuff | 20:26 |
| sijmen | unfortunately, yes. | 20:26 |
| mithro | where as it seems that time would be better spent improving the tpclient-pywx GUI | 20:27 |
| sijmen | yes, that would be rational. | 20:27 |
| mithro | sijmen: have you checked out the tpc-pywx-dev branch? | 20:28 |
| sijmen | nope not yet | 20:28 |
| sijmen | I'm going to do that.. | 20:28 |
| sijmen | but it's 2.30 AM here and got class tomorrow morning sory I'ld better head off | 20:28 |
| mithro | sijmen: that would be the best place to start if you are serious about trying to improve the UI | 20:28 |
| mithro | sijmen: well have a good night | 20:28 |
| sijmen | thanks | 20:29 |
| sijmen | see y'all soon | 20:29 |
| sijmen | maybe tomorrow but I'll be out for the weekend :) | 20:29 |
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| mithro | sijmen: all the UI enhanced you had proposed would work well in tpclient-pywx too | 20:29 |
| nash | Wait a second - rewriting the network section isn;t that hard | 20:35 |
| mithro | nash: depends, it's not an insignificant amount of work | 20:36 |
| nash | It's not that significant either - GTK/glib give you an event loop & packet abstractions. | 20:37 |
| nash | he could essentially drop the code in from galaxie for processing s/e/g/ for most the calls | 20:37 |
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| mithro | morning dmpayton | 21:39 |
| mithro | back in windows? | 21:39 |
| dmpayton | Nope, back in chatzilla | 21:39 |
| mithro | nash: not really - using C code in C# is not that easy | 21:39 |
| mithro | not installed xchat yet? | 21:39 |
| dmpayton | I havn't booted windoze since installing ubuntu | 21:39 |
| mithro | sudo apt-get install xchat | 21:40 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Eh, I didn't care for xchat too much. | 21:40 |
| * dmpayton hides | 21:40 | |
| mithro | dmpayton: o btw, did you hear about how to installed things under debian/ubuntu? | 21:40 |
| dmpayton | Admittedly, I didn't spend much time with it. | 21:40 |
| dmpayton | mithro: you mean synaptic? | 21:40 |
| mithro | it's not a good idea to download random software and try to install it - leaves you mean with a horrible time when ever you want to upgrade | 21:41 |
| mithro | dmpayton: make sure you have xchat rather then xchat-gnome | 21:41 |
| mithro | dmpayton: Synaptic is just a GUI in front of apt-get | 21:41 |
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| dmpayton_ | Hmms... | 21:43 |
| nash | mithro: What is wrong with xchat-gnome? | 21:43 |
| * nash uses both, and finds xchat-gnome the better one | 21:43 | |
| mithro | nash: it's a horrible "user friendly" version of xchat which looks like arse | 21:43 |
| mithro | nash: maybe I'm just use to xchat, last time I tried to use xchat-gnome it was horrible | 21:44 |
| * nash wonders if mithro hasn't used xchat-gnome for a while | 21:44 | |
| mithro | nash: I tried it about a year ago :P | 21:44 |
| mithro | dmpayton: http://www.xchat.org/screenshots/ | 21:45 |
| tpb | Title: XChat: Multiplatform Chat Program (at www.xchat.org) | 21:45 |
| dmpayton_ | OH, I remember why I didn't like xchat | 21:45 |
| nash | mithro: It has a much better UI for channels then the supid semi-tab buttons things | 21:45 |
| mithro | I like the sem-tab buttons :P | 21:45 |
| nash | Only thing annoying if the lackof user list on teh right (which i normally hide anyway), instead you need to click the #N users button on the left | 21:46 |
| dmpayton | In chatzilla, I have it setup to where, when I open chatzilla, it connects to slashnet and joins #summer-discuss, and connects to freenode, ident's, and join #tp and #webpy | 21:46 |
| nash | And it's not clear when you have ops | 21:46 |
| dmpayton | I couldn't find the settings in xchat to do that | 21:46 |
| mithro | I like a user list on the right | 21:46 |
| nash | dmpayton: In servers you click "autoconnect" | 21:46 |
| mithro | oh, that is easy - just go to the "Networks List" | 21:46 |
| nash | Then add the list of channels under "channels to join" | 21:47 |
| mithro | nash: I guess the tree interface would be better on a wide screen laptop | 21:47 |
| mithro | but i'm still on 4:3 | 21:47 |
| nash | At work I have dual screen, so it fits nicely with my gaim window - and the list of channels is the same width as the list of users, and is used a lot more frequently | 21:48 |
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| dmpayton | meh | 21:49 |
| dmpayton | Time to test this CrossOver thing... | 21:53 |
| dmpayton | Oh crap. | 21:55 |
| dmpayton | the version of XO I have supports Photoshop 6 and 7... not CS2. :/ | 21:56 |
| mithro | dmpayton: ggggiiiiimmmmmppppp, giiiiiimmmmmppppp | 21:59 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Booooooo! | 21:59 |
| dmpayton | I can install PS on XP, but... it's a pain to switch between OS's | 22:01 |
| dmpayton | I'm gonna try the legit 30-day trial. | 22:02 |
| dmpayton | for XO | 22:02 |
| nash | mithro: Gimp isn't as good as photoshop however :-( | 22:04 |
| nash | On the other hand inkscape is quite comparable, especially in it's excellent SVG handling, to illustrator | 22:05 |
| nash | Alghough illustrator is better for tablets is my understanding | 22:05 |
| mithro | nash: bah! Photoshop is the evils ;) | 22:05 |
| nash | I'll agree with that | 22:05 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Photoshop is the sex. | 22:05 |
| mithro | i wish Scribus was GTK | 22:05 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Why do you hate PS | 22:06 |
| dmpayton | ? | 22:06 |
| mithro | dmpayton: because it is teh evils! | 22:06 |
| nash | dmpayton: no-unix version | 22:06 |
| mithro | bah, xchat auto corrects teh into the on that first line :/ | 22:06 |
| dmpayton | So no *nix = teh evils? | 22:07 |
| nash | From a mithro world view... apparently yes | 22:08 |
| dmpayton | see | 22:08 |
| dmpayton | In my world | 22:08 |
| dmpayton | mac is teh evils | 22:08 |
| dmpayton | however | 22:08 |
| jotham | photoshop is pretty much without rival | 22:08 |
| jotham | but you actually have to know how to use it to see that | 22:08 |
| dmpayton | I spent a year as a graphic design major, surrounded by them | 22:08 |
| mithro | dmpayton: using a Mac is like sleeping with a hooker, it might feel good - but you are going to catch something :P | 22:09 |
| jotham | <- works for a design/advertising company | 22:09 |
| dmpayton | jotham: Pretty much. | 22:09 |
| mithro | jotham: my use of the gimp amounts to cropping screenshots :P | 22:09 |
| mithro | which should be enought for anyone! :P | 22:09 |
| dmpayton | see, I always brought my laptop into all my classes... Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign...they all work the same on Mac or PC. | 22:10 |
| jotham | i run ps6 and cs2 at work and home | 22:10 |
| jotham | since ps6 is good for 90% of what i do | 22:11 |
| jotham | and cs is only good for non destructable layers and bigger design tasks | 22:11 |
| jotham | better font stuff etc | 22:11 |
| dmpayton | Man, PS6... that was my first experience with PS. I was in 8th grade. | 22:11 |
| dmpayton | Meeeeeemoriiiiieeeesss..... | 22:11 |
| jotham | but mostly i am fixing colors and light levels etc, things PS6 is solid at | 22:11 |
| mithro | bah, pbrush should be enough for anyone | 22:11 |
| jotham | my first experience with PS was 1.2 or so | 22:11 |
| jotham | no layers | 22:11 |
| jotham | had to have multiple documents open | 22:11 |
| jotham | on a 33mhz color macintosh | 22:12 |
| jotham | aww yeah | 22:12 |
| dmpayton | jotham: Talk about old-skool. Nowadays you can't live without layers. | 22:12 |
| nash | Anyway... people, just report bugs/limitations in gimp, add some features, and hopefully one day it will be on the same level | 22:13 |
| dmpayton | People: Yeah! Don't like it? Stop complaining and contribute! :P | 22:13 |
| mithro | nash: gimp recently got CYMK right? | 22:14 |
| dmpayton | gimp only recently got cmyk? | 22:15 |
| nash | dmpayton: Yep - gimp is a great desktop edititor, but it's print process support is weak | 22:17 |
| nash | Very very weak | 22:17 |
| dmpayton | Yeah | 22:17 |
| dmpayton | So.. | 22:17 |
| jotham | comparing gimp and photoshop is very fingernails on the blackboard | 22:17 |
| dmpayton | how to get PS onto Linux... | 22:17 |
| jotham | there are websites dedicated to it | 22:17 |
| nash | Scripting and plugin interfaces are equal, or debately better then PS - the mutiple languages for starts | 22:17 |
| jotham | the only people that compare them don't know how to use them very well | 22:18 |
| jotham | but yeah ink scape is a nice effort | 22:18 |
| nash | Partly, part of the problem is the argument often turns into: "Photoshop is better, why - it just is" | 22:18 |
| dmpayton | nash: Can't debate with the truth! | 22:18 |
| nash | Specific - this is what needs to improve is limited | 22:18 |
| nash | dmpayton: Not a matter of truth, a matter of being constructive | 22:19 |
| nash | Thousand Parsec isn't as good as Stars! | 22:19 |
| nash | End of discussion... true, but not useful | 22:19 |
| jotham | you also can't explain the myriad of ways it's better easily | 22:19 |
| jotham | the easiest answer is: get a book and learn photoshop | 22:19 |
| jotham | then go and develop gimp | 22:20 |
| jotham | (if you want to) | 22:20 |
| dmpayton | bah, gimp. | 22:20 |
| jotham | hah, i'm not advocating gimp at all | 22:20 |
| jotham | i run windows on my graphics machine for a reason | 22:21 |
| jotham | linux just doesn't cut it | 22:21 |
| dmpayton | I've spent years in PS. I don't really feel like climbing another mountain to do what I already can. | 22:21 |
| jotham | it's no mountian either | 22:21 |
| jotham | it's a shrub | 22:21 |
| jotham | with an akward UI | 22:21 |
| jotham | gimp that is | 22:22 |
| dmpayton | heh | 22:22 |
| jotham | there are a lot of unix users out there that religiously believe closed source = evil | 22:22 |
| nash | jotham: So basically you just repeated exactly the same argument, and still haven't even said anything constructive or useful. | 22:22 |
| jotham | nash: right, and i prefaced it with my qualification | 22:22 |
| jotham | nash: it was stimulated directly by your statement | 22:23 |
| jotham | i also said earlier discussing it was silly | 22:23 |
| nash | Why is it silly? Is photoshop so fantastic NO software can EVER be as good? If so, why do they keep releasing new versions? | 22:24 |
| jotham | but i admit i don't understand prejudice very well, it often seems to be peoples laziness covered up by some ideological position | 22:24 |
| jotham | photoshop isn't fantastic, infact i think the lack of competition has caused it to turn into horrible bloat | 22:24 |
| jotham | adobe arn't a good software house, they are a good business | 22:25 |
| jotham | but the conversation about gimp vs photoshop is silly because as i said there are websites dedicated to it and go into it in much greater detail than we can hope to here | 22:25 |
| nash | So, it would be advantagous if gimp was a serious competitor - then they'd take there finger out and become the adobe of old -0 who did some fantastic stuff | 22:25 |
| jotham | i agree with you | 22:26 |
| jotham | but i don't have much faith in the nature of development in the linux community | 22:26 |
| nash | Why not? | 22:27 |
| jotham | too much parallel development of near similar products and tools diffusing developer effort except for in a few cases of prestigeous software | 22:27 |
| nash | They have produces what is argueably the best kernel on the planet | 22:27 |
| jotham | yep | 22:27 |
| jotham | it's a prestigeous piece of software to work on | 22:27 |
| nash | GIMP is a prestigous piece of software in the linux community | 22:27 |
| jotham | but now that production houses are starting to employ gimp and modify it things are changing for gimp | 22:28 |
| jotham | i wouldn't say that nash | 22:28 |
| jotham | but it'll get there i hope | 22:28 |
| nash | It will | 22:29 |
| nash | Actually I think the huge buzz behind inkscape will help as well | 22:29 |
| jotham | adobe need a kick in the ass | 22:29 |
| nash | That too ;-) | 22:29 |
| jotham | does inkscape use cairo? | 22:30 |
| nash | Partially is the correct answer. Next release does entirely (for the canvas) | 22:32 |
| jotham | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/10/1832216&from=rss | 22:32 |
| jotham | ^ haha | 22:32 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/V_P> (at slashdot.org) | 22:32 |
| jotham | problem is adobe has some damn fine hardware accelerated vector rasteriser technology at their disposal | 22:33 |
| jotham | i haven't seen a competing library in the OSS community | 22:33 |
| nash | jotham: Re: the article - note the /. poll | 22:33 |
| jotham | for all everyone hates flash, it's rendering engine is really rather good | 22:33 |
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| nash | jotham: As someone who writes a graphic toolkit and optimises rendering engines professionally - it's average rendering engine | 22:34 |
| jotham | you've seen/worked with flash 9? | 22:35 |
| dmpayton | flash has it's place... but fully flash websites need to die. | 22:35 |
| nash | Well flash as UI on the web is a disaster | 22:35 |
| jotham | dmpayton: for sure, it's a media asset like a jpg, png, whatever - fullscreen image maps sucked too =) | 22:35 |
| jotham | nash: you've seen / worked with the Flash 9 engine? | 22:35 |
| nash | I've seen 9, I haven't worked on it. | 22:36 |
| dmpayton | jotham: true dat. | 22:36 |
| nash | Can flash 9 no QVGA 25fps video on a 206Mhz ARM without hardware acceleration (+ mp3 audio)? | 22:37 |
| jotham | nash: i haven't seen cairo perform as well, but that may be from under utilization | 22:37 |
| nash | s/no/do/ | 22:37 |
| nash | cairo's performance bites in the arse | 22:37 |
| jotham | the hardware acceleration is the main benifit of flash 9 | 22:37 |
| jotham | but sure, you can give me examples where engine x is ass | 22:37 |
| jotham | that's fine | 22:37 |
| nash | Still cairo vs flash is a rather strange comparison - different beasts | 22:37 |
| nash | www.fst.net | 22:37 |
| jotham | why is it a strange comparison | 22:38 |
| jotham | both are used to render content | 22:38 |
| nash | Yes, but so is my HP printer... | 22:38 |
| jotham | you can use cairo to make interactive content though | 22:38 |
| nash | And I'm not comparing it's JCL or postscript renderer ;-) | 22:38 |
| jotham | infact everything flash can do really | 22:38 |
| nash | s/can/can't/ - so yeah. | 22:39 |
| nash | I agree | 22:39 |
| jotham | we are talking the rendering engine | 22:39 |
| nash | Cairo is a library, and it has many backends - it could probably do flash as an engine. | 22:39 |
| jotham | not the scripting engine, event model, animation system whatever | 22:39 |
| nash | yeah, but the other parst are fairly tied to flash correct? | 22:39 |
| jotham | yeah but as a developer of interactive media i would use something other than flash if it was viable | 22:40 |
| jotham | and i can use cairo to composit vector images, and i can use flash to do it | 22:40 |
| nash | jotham: For what targets? | 22:40 |
| jotham | we spec the hardware, museums mostly, roadshows, schools | 22:41 |
| jotham | usually a lot of video sound and animation | 22:41 |
| nash | http://www.fluffyspider.com/resources/cases/case_01_verifone.html | 22:41 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/V_Y> (at www.fluffyspider.com) | 22:41 |
| jotham | but this isn't open source right? | 22:42 |
| nash | It is partially open source | 22:42 |
| nash | And it may be fully open source shortly | 22:43 |
| nash | The evas engine is open source, and it does the bulk of the rendering | 22:43 |
| jotham | for me personally i am looking for a linux sollution to replace flash | 22:43 |
| jotham | for my business we wont replace flash because the production pipeline is very efficient | 22:43 |
| nash | Then talk to us professionally, we can replace flash | 22:43 |
| jotham | and this is another macro-dobe strength | 22:44 |
| nash | Lack of front-end replacements for the flash GUIs is one area we are... lets say poor... or more accurately - screwed | 22:44 |
| jotham | servicing the entire pipeline | 22:44 |
| jotham | i've just been disapointed with all the offerings to the linux community as far as vector rasterisers go | 22:45 |
| jotham | and it was hard enough to get the company to accept python into the toolset | 22:45 |
| nash | C & Lua would be right out then? | 22:45 |
| jotham | if i propose we produce a product in another engine it'll require real push | 22:45 |
| jotham | we're not developer heavy nash | 22:45 |
| jotham | it's hard enough to find python developers, let alone lua | 22:46 |
| nash | Neither are we ;-) | 22:46 |
| jotham | we advertised for a C++ coder for months | 22:46 |
| jotham | we got a few guys | 22:46 |
| jotham | but nothing suitable | 22:46 |
| jotham | problem is it's not just development | 22:46 |
| jotham | i mean when you choose a technology | 22:48 |
| jotham | the distortion amplifier between management and production creates some very shitty phenominon | 22:48 |
| nash | Yes | 22:49 |
| jotham | our competition lost a client, and we ended up with the client because they had a syntax error in 1 line (we found this when we got the source code) | 22:49 |
| nash | Weird | 22:49 |
| jotham | the management blew it up in 3 three teams into a giant drama | 22:49 |
| jotham | that was of epic political proportions here | 22:49 |
| jotham | so we get a huge client because of one shitty error | 22:49 |
| nash | Still what sort of hardware do you target? | 22:50 |
| jotham | we have a deal with HP so x86 stuff | 22:50 |
| jotham | running win2k | 22:50 |
| jotham | we have over 200 machines running out in the wild | 22:51 |
| jotham | never any problems | 22:51 |
| nash | What sort of processors though - geodes or are we talking dual core p4s? | 22:51 |
| jotham | touch screens lose calibration, joysticks and other input devices die | 22:51 |
| jotham | i have a doc here | 22:52 |
| jotham | hold on | 22:52 |
| jotham | ok can't find it, anyway the last major installation we did was all single core p4 | 22:53 |
| jotham | but we can spec the hardware usually | 22:53 |
| jotham | so whatever | 22:53 |
| jotham | it's good because we get to tune the software/animations/bitrates etc to run the best for the machine | 22:53 |
| nash | jotham: We have over 20000 devices out there... | 22:53 |
| jotham | cool | 22:54 |
| nash | It could be way more... | 22:54 |
| jotham | but? | 22:54 |
| nash | maccas in mexico will have 10+ units per shop | 22:54 |
| nash | That's the last numbers I got | 22:54 |
| nash | Not but as in 'some stupid reason stopped us', but 'but I don't know what we are up to' | 22:55 |
| nash | 20000 I know have been shipped. | 22:55 |
| jotham | cool | 22:56 |
| nash | We compete with flash at the low end but we run fine on intel | 22:56 |
| nash | We develop apps on the desktop, run them use them, debug then, then just recompile for the target | 22:57 |
| nash | We don't emulate anything, so it just works - same code all the way | 22:57 |
| jotham | so i'm on this all fruit and vegitable detox diet thing my gf came up with | 22:58 |
| jotham | and my coworker is eating fish and chips | 22:58 |
| jotham | very distracting | 22:58 |
| jotham | 3 days in, 4 to go | 22:58 |
| nash | THere are target specific optimisations (ironically on certain ARM processosers we get better performance then on a 5 time faster linux box with X - but thats a different matter) | 22:58 |
| nash | jotham: that sounds like a load of crap ;-) | 22:58 |
| * jotham shrugs | 22:59 | |
| jotham | i'm pretty hungry | 22:59 |
| jotham | no meat or bread/grain in 3 days | 22:59 |
| jotham | i get 40g of protien a day | 22:59 |
| nash | ouch | 22:59 |
| dmpayton | jotham: what are you detoxing from? | 22:59 |
| jotham | well i'm not really | 23:00 |
| jotham | she's doing it as a fad | 23:00 |
| jotham | and since i cook all our meals | 23:00 |
| nash | his girlfriend if she isn;t careful ;-) | 23:00 |
| jotham | i threw my hat in and said, ok lets do it | 23:00 |
| dmpayton | Haha | 23:00 |
| jotham | also using your brain to force your body to do things is something i enjoy | 23:00 |
| jotham | self abuse | 23:00 |
| jotham | but yeah, who knew a plate of plain race could be the most appealing thing in the universe | 23:01 |
| nash | jotham: Where are you located? | 23:02 |
| jotham | wellington, new zealand | 23:02 |
| jotham | above llnz | 23:02 |
| nash | So not far from Sydney then... | 23:02 |
| jotham | nope, what 2-3 hours? | 23:02 |
| jotham | Fri May 11 15:04:25 NZST 2007 | 23:02 |
| mithro | nash: do you know Keith Packard? | 23:02 |
| nash | mithro: Not really | 23:02 |
| nash | !date | 23:03 |
| nash | d'oh | 23:03 |
| mithro | ~date | 23:03 |
| nash | Fri May 11 13:05:11 EST 2007 | 23:03 |
| nash | ~date | 23:03 |
| mithro | ~time | 23:03 |
| tpb | mithro: 11:03 PM, May 10, 2007 | 23:03 |
| mithro | well that was rather useless :P | 23:03 |
| nash | jotham: So do you ever get customers who want something a little less beefy? | 23:03 |
| jotham | we never get offered that kind of work | 23:04 |
| jotham | and we don't actively seek it | 23:04 |
| jotham | mostly we only seek media rich interactive work | 23:04 |
| nash | Well we do media rich stuff, we just aim for lower targets... hell with a 2Ghz p4 we could do insane stuff. | 23:06 |
| jotham | biggest problem is making it more profitable to use the faster library over the library that has really good production/content generation support | 23:08 |
| mithro | nash: keith gave a pretty cool talk at the Embedded Miniconf called (paraphrase) "Twin - Vector Graphics on targets to small for X" | 23:08 |
| jotham | that's teh strength of macrodobe | 23:08 |
| jotham | i've never worked for a games company but i assume they must spend a fuckload of time just developing their content development tools | 23:09 |
| * dmpayton would love to work for a games company | 23:10 | |
| nash | jotham: But how about someone who wants a larger run? BTW: We also have a flash interpreter (or we can, we don;t ship it normally) However it doesn't work with flash 9 - Well I assume not. I don't touch that part | 23:10 |
| jotham | largest we do is museums | 23:13 |
| jotham | NZ isn't very big | 23:13 |
| jotham | if you want us to forward you work though i can pass your details on to our head sales guy, him and i are pretty good friends | 23:13 |
| jotham | dunno if anything would come of it | 23:14 |
| mithro | nash: it was basically how to do stuff in 8bit processors | 23:14 |
| nash | jotham: That would be cool. www.fst.net is the company website | 23:15 |
| jotham | i wish scite let me diff any 2 files in-line | 23:15 |
| nash | mithro: Well we don't do 8bit, or even 16bit... we do draw the line at 32 bit for small. | 23:15 |
| jotham | like, for instance, select 2 open tabs and click diff them | 23:15 |
| mithro | nash: well - it was more for things like PIC processors | 23:16 |
| jotham | wonder if i can write a script | 23:16 |
| mithro | and other similar low end devices | 23:16 |
| nash | Yeah - lower end then us - we start at smart phones - or even 3g phones, set top boxes etc | 23:17 |
| mithro | anyone know a way to "optomise" IE recompress and crop all the pictures in an OO document? | 23:17 |
| nash | mithro: No idea... I avoid OO all the time. | 23:17 |
| jotham | flash is already threatening to pass java in the mobile market | 23:18 |
| jotham | but they just had a political spanner thrown in the works | 23:18 |
| mithro | nash: the cool thing is that it was very much like a cut down cairo | 23:18 |
| nash | (about to go to lunch) | 23:19 |
| mithro | nash: what do you use for proposals and stuff? | 23:19 |
| nash | jotham: Yeah I know... It's annoying since flash[lite] on mobiles is so poor. | 23:20 |
| nash | Of course java being pushed of the perch is long deserved | 23:20 |
| jotham | yeah | 23:20 |
| nash | mithro: LaTeX my self | 23:20 |
| nash | boss uses OOo | 23:21 |
| nash | jotham: Problem is we don't have adobes marketing department ;-) | 23:21 |
| nash | anyway - back soon | 23:21 |
| mithro | just imported a large amount of pictures into my OO document and I was hoping there was an optimise option | 23:22 |
| nash | mithro: Open the document in zip | 23:22 |
| jotham | output it as a bitmap | 23:22 |
| nash | use convert/gimp/photoshop to manipulate the images, rezip the file | 23:22 |
| nash | Anywya - lunch time | 23:22 |
| xdotx | hmm, any Dream Theater fans? | 23:29 |
| dmpayton | xdotx: Hells yeah | 23:30 |
| dmpayton | xdotx: Saw DT with Yes about two years ago. DT was awesome | 23:31 |
| xdotx | dmpayton: good! heard the new album? | 23:31 |
| dmpayton | Pretrucci is one of my favorite guitar players. | 23:31 |
| dmpayton | xdotx: Negative on the new album. Any good? | 23:31 |
| xdotx | dmpayton: agreed. his solo albums is _awesome_ | 23:32 |
| dmpayton | Train of Thought is probably my favorite album. | 23:33 |
| xdotx | dmpayton: yeah, it's great. i was really worried, the two songs that released/leaked earlier weren't very good, but the rest is great | 23:33 |
| xdotx | dmpayton: Yeah? you'd probably like this one then. | 23:33 |
| dmpayton | I'll have to look it up. | 23:33 |
| xdotx | it's not quite "out" yet | 23:34 |
| dmpayton | What's it called? | 23:34 |
| xdotx | systematic chaos | 23:35 |
| dmpayton | xdotx: You heard much LTE? | 23:37 |
| mithro | hey xdotx | 23:37 |
| xdotx | hey mithro | 23:37 |
| mithro | xdotx: you are on linux right? | 23:37 |
| xdotx | dmpayton: of course! got both | 23:37 |
| xdotx | mithro: of course! ubuntu | 23:37 |
| mithro | xdotx: Lee talked to you about setting up your branch for doing the RFTS stuff? | 23:38 |
| dmpayton | xdotx: Nice! I've only heard a few songs. Havn't had a chance to grab the albums yet | 23:38 |
| * mithro would really like to see some pushes (even if they are only tests) from the students soon :P | 23:39 | |
| xdotx | mithro: he did. i was workin' on that last night. i think i ran in to a little trouble building | 23:39 |
| mithro | xdotx: where did you get up to? i've built the server quite a few times on ubuntu | 23:40 |
| xdotx | mithro: i hadn't actually attempted a build, was just walking through the steps and came across something i was missing (unless i'm getting it mixed up with some other building i was doing last night) | 23:40 |
| * mithro is a bit lagged btw | 23:40 | |
| xdotx | sec, i'll check again | 23:40 |
| mithro | xdotx: opps, I have to run, I'll be back in about 30 minutes | 23:43 |
| xdotx | mithro: k, seeya | 23:44 |
| *** dmpayton has quit IRC | 23:54 | |
| *** dmpayton has joined #tp | 23:54 | |
| dmpayton | Mm.. | 23:55 |
| dmpayton | There needs to be a way to organize/rearrange applications on the taskbar... | 23:55 |
| xdotx | hmm, which taskbar? | 23:57 |
| dmpayton | bottom one. | 23:58 |
| dmpayton | Had to restart firefox, so instead of being on the left, where I"m used to it being, it's to the right of all the other apps | 23:59 |
| dmpayton | which throws me off. | 23:59 |
| * dmpayton is a creature of habit | 23:59 | |
| xdotx | use multiple workspaces? | 23:59 |
| jotham | yeah, now you are in linux land | 23:59 |
| jotham | get yourself a few work spaces | 23:59 |
| jotham | i fullscreen firefox in one work space | 23:59 |
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