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| jophish1 | HI all | 05:43 |
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| mithro | @gatecat I'm trying to understand the routing bels / pseudo pips / site pips issue | 15:33 |
| gatecat | mithro: sure | 15:34 |
| mithro | gatecat: Does https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1bebwA63KE3pTdFuAZ60mEg6e5jXnZIsCwrczq7bylN0/edit make sense to you? | 15:34 |
| gatecat | essentially the rule is that site pips should only be used to access site resources; and not to be used for other, general routing | 15:34 |
| tpb | Title: Site PIPs - Pseudo PIPs represent "route through" paths for BELs - Google Zeichnungen (at docs.google.com) | 15:34 |
| gatecat | mithro: yes, both those cases in the doc are valid and legal possibilities (although in the current setup only the former applies) | 15:35 |
| gatecat | but for another arch that had FFs that could be routed through, the latter case would be fine too | 15:35 |
| mithro | @gatecat So when you use a pseudo pip, you end up "blocking" a bunch of bels | 15:36 |
| gatecat | mithro: correct, but that's not the problem to hand | 15:36 |
| gatecat | the problem we're dealing with at the moment would be the router using the router using *both* of those site PIPs to route through the whole site without touching any bels | 15:37 |
| gatecat | which isn't allowed in the interchange format - if the arch wants to support that too, it should provide a tile pseudo PIP (not a site PIP) that routes from site input to output | 15:37 |
| mithro | gatecat: So is Figure B1 illegal? | 15:43 |
| gatecat | mithro: correct, site PIPs can only be used to access bels in the site and not for routing through the entire site | 15:43 |
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| gatecat | if instead of two site PIPs, it was a single *tile* pseudo PIP, it would be fine | 15:43 |
| mithro | @gatecat See Figure C ? | 16:06 |
| gatecat | 'Figure C' would be legal if it was a tile pseudo PIP | 16:07 |
| gatecat | and it might make sense, depending on the routing graph, particularly if the design is congested it can open up extra routing options | 16:07 |
| mithro | @gatecat At the tile level is there any reference to bels? | 16:08 |
| gatecat | mithro: pseudo pips tell you which bels they conflict with: https://github.com/SymbiFlow/fpga-interchange-schema/blob/main/interchange/DeviceResources.capnp#L252 | 16:08 |
| mithro | @gatecat It seems like pseudo pips should be at the site level and not tile level? | 16:21 |
| gatecat | mithro: currently we have both, because of the requirement for site routing only to be used to access resources in the site | 16:33 |
| gatecat | they could be at site level only if we remove that constraint | 16:33 |
| gatecat | (it's a constraint of Vivado, aiui, which is how it crept into the interchange format contract too, but we can work around that in the dcp generation if needed) | 16:33 |
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| mithro | gatecat: Do you have an exmaple? | 16:34 |
| gatecat | no, not to hand although I think the diagrams show it well enough | 16:34 |
| gatecat | what exactly do you want an example of? | 16:34 |
| mithro | @gatecat I think I understand now -- there is no reason "except Vivado" that the pseudo pips couldn't be just in the site level? | 16:47 |
| gatecat | not that I know of, but there could be a good reason that Vivado disallows use of site routing for anything other than to access bels | 16:47 |
| gatecat | for example some of the more obscure site types | 16:48 |
| gatecat | unfortunately the rationale behind this decision was never documented | 16:48 |
| sf-slack1 | <acomodi> I think this was intended to allow the site router to use some additional site-routing constraints, which should not be exposed to the general router, which can only use the tile pseudo PIPs which "hide" the internal site connectivity | 16:51 |
| gatecat | acomodi: yes, this would make sense | 17:00 |
| gatecat | particularly if we wanted to support things like latches-to-legalise-carries in the future, it would be best if they were for the site router only and not exposed to the general router | 17:01 |
| gatecat | there may also be some complexity that I haven't thought of where alternative site types are involved | 17:01 |
| sf-slack1 | <acomodi> Indeed, I think the various alt site types corresponding to the IOI tiles are part of this set. I think that in general, the internal site routing and the general router should be well separated, and using different kinds of psuedo PIPs | 17:13 |
| gatecat | oh, I hadn't thought of IOI tiles - they are a very interesting case of this too... | 17:23 |
| jokus_malus | nickoe: Sounds good! | 17:50 |
| nickoe | :) | 17:51 |
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