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| mwilkes|phone | SRabbelier: sorry about that mail, fat fingers + andy = fuckups. | 12:57 |
| SRabbelier | mwilkes|phone: aah, you were sending it from your andy? :) | 13:10 |
| SRabbelier | mwilkes|phone: don't worry about it, I tried to send a proper email from my andy once, but it's nigh impossible :) | 13:10 |
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| mwilkes|phone | SRabbelier: even replied to the wrong thing! shall have to write a new client… | 13:17 |
| SRabbelier | mwilkes|phone: yes, I was guessing that it was in reply to the other thread, was really confused for a moment though :P | 13:18 |
| mwilkes|phone | SRabbelier: useful sometimes though. scheduled an exam while waiting for another to start. yay. | 13:26 |
| SRabbelier | mwilkes|phone: hehe, pretty sweet, how did your examn go? | 13:28 |
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| mwilkes|phone | SRabbelier: apparently it was "really difficult", but I can't have got much below 80%, so either I missunderstood thre point of it, or really well | 13:33 |
| mwilkes|phone | now in the library "studying" | 13:33 |
| SRabbelier | mwilkes|phone: I totally know what you mean, had that with my last Ethics test :P | 13:34 |
| mwilkes|phone | I've just noticed that this library looks a lot like the memorial to the jewish victims of the holocaust in berlin… | 13:35 |
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| * James--Crook waves at Erant | 16:50 | |
| * SRabbelier waves at James--Crook | 16:51 | |
| * James--Crook waves to Sverre | 16:51 | |
| James--Crook | Erant: take a look at http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/Articles - very well written... | 16:51 |
| tpb | Title: Articles - doctype - Google Code (at code.google.com) | 16:51 |
| SRabbelier | James--Crook: fancy! | 16:52 |
| James--Crook | How is Sverre? | 16:52 |
| SRabbelier | James--Crook: watching google's Shareholder's Day 2009, at 11:00 there's some guy causing ruckus :P | 16:54 |
| solydzajs | SRabbelier: I stopped watching after 5 minutes :-) | 16:55 |
| SRabbelier | solydzajs: I'm waiting for this meeting to start :P | 16:55 |
| danderson | SRabbelier: what about? | 16:55 |
| solydzajs | SRabbelier: ah ok ;-) | 16:55 |
| SRabbelier | danderson: he wanted to ask a question or something | 16:55 |
| SRabbelier | danderson: but the Q&A was "later on" :P | 16:56 |
| SRabbelier | danderson: and he wouldn't STFU :P | 16:56 |
| danderson | bah | 16:56 |
| danderson | "security!" | 16:57 |
| danderson | and escort him out | 16:57 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: 3 more minutes and we can start | 16:57 |
| SRabbelier | danderson: they did :D | 16:57 |
| danderson | :P | 16:58 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: fine with that. Anything I should be reading first (I think not, but just checking) | 16:58 |
| danderson | I see we share the same "no bullshit kthx" attitude :P | 16:58 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: nope this is quick meeting ;-) no agenda, you wanted to talk :-) | 16:58 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: cool. | 16:58 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 16:58 |
| SRabbelier | danderson: heheh, lol :D | 16:59 |
| Merio | I'm here too, cheers all ^__^ | 16:59 |
| SRabbelier | Merio: O HI :D | 16:59 |
| solydzajs | Hey Merio :-) | 16:59 |
| solydzajs | Merio: how is it going ?;-) how is Dublin ? | 16:59 |
| James--Crook | hi Mario! | 16:59 |
| James--Crook | So, I think we can start... | 17:00 |
| solydzajs | yep :-) | 17:00 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: the meeting is all yours :-) | 17:00 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: I'm looking at the fact that we have two strong GSoC students both doing statistics. | 17:00 |
| Merio | Hi all ^__^ solydzajs: :P after meeting :P | 17:00 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: yes | 17:00 |
| James--Crook | So there are two main things to consider.... | 17:01 |
| solydzajs | I'm listening :-) | 17:01 |
| James--Crook | One is that they don't tread on each others toes. | 17:01 |
| solydzajs | That for sure | 17:01 |
| James--Crook | The other is that getting essntial stats done could probably be done by one student by the mid term... | 17:01 |
| James--Crook | By essential stats I mean basic pie and bar cahrts. | 17:02 |
| Merio | agree | 17:02 |
| James--Crook | It's not as if google charting is difficult to use. | 17:02 |
| solydzajs | yes, but it is not jsut pie and bar charts | 17:02 |
| James--Crook | So, we need to start thinking about this right now. | 17:02 |
| solydzajs | it's also result tables | 17:02 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: please go on... | 17:02 |
| James--Crook | The hard part of results tables is the 1000 problem and what Dan Bentley is doing... | 17:03 |
| solydzajs | usage of both Visualization API and Chart API, and writing in a way that can be easily extended with new charts | 17:03 |
| solydzajs | new stats | 17:03 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: no it's not | 17:03 |
| James--Crook | From Mario's point of view a table is just another view of the data... | 17:03 |
| Merio | solydzajs: IIRC you can serve the same JSON to a table visualization, to a pie chart and to a bar chart as well | 17:03 |
| Merio | solydzajs: Never really played with that, but it seems so from the description of the API I've read before applying | 17:04 |
| James--Crook | Well... so we're seeing gathering stats and we're seeing presenting stats.... | 17:04 |
| solydzajs | Merio: yes we can but like you just pointed out you never played with that and I'm sure it will take sometime to make it work nicely | 17:04 |
| Merio | solydzajs: if you want I can try something before 23 to have a better idea | 17:05 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: 1000 limitation is not a problem here because we will gather the data using jobs for example 300 entities per job and just start from last key in next job | 17:05 |
| James--Crook | Now in presenting stats we can (and probably will) go off into the wilder reaches with charts with a slider so that you can see changes over time.... | 17:06 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: we don't need any specific order of entities for stats | 17:06 |
| James--Crook | Ah, so you're reckoning the sorting might be tricky? | 17:06 |
| solydzajs | Merio: well we should focus first on getting the data out from datastore using Jobs | 17:06 |
| James--Crook | Or at least the flexible specification of it? | 17:06 |
| James--Crook | Absolutely, getting the data is a vital first step. | 17:07 |
| James--Crook | Sorting is needed for some kinds of chart too. Not just tables. | 17:07 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: gathering data in sorted format yes it will be a problem, but we don't need that data to be sorted | 17:07 |
| James--Crook | No, that is not a problem. | 17:07 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: we need sorted results and that we can do | 17:07 |
| James--Crook | Gathering it unsorted is fine. | 17:07 |
| solydzajs | yep exactly | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | Presenting it sorted is fine too. | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | sort() | 17:08 |
| solydzajs | yep | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | in javascript. | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | It works quite well :-) | 17:08 |
| solydzajs | yep depending where we are going to sort :-) | 17:08 |
| solydzajs | this is doable | 17:08 |
| solydzajs | without any problems | 17:08 |
| Merio | James--Crook: actually not always ^__^ | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | Merio: go on... | 17:08 |
| James--Crook | Merio: what is the problem with sort? | 17:09 |
| James--Crook | I think our largest 'dataset' is for all applications (not just accepted ones) | 17:10 |
| Merio | James--Crook: well you would end up doing custom sorting functions | 17:10 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: what other questions do you have regarding Stats projects ? We need to start with gathering data using Jobs, I will review all the recent changes to wiki pages tomorrow and also add there my description of how it should work and where to start | 17:10 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: our largest dataset is all Students | 17:10 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: actually it's all Users but that we don't need | 17:11 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: well you are right all applications is the largest one | 17:11 |
| James--Crook | Oh, yes, because many students don't submit an application. Numbers (roughly?) | 17:11 |
| Merio | James--Crook: IIRC the sort array function in JavaScript sorts alphabetically by default. Furthermore sometimes sorting can be more difficult than just an alphabetical order, if we want multiple sorting | 17:11 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: I think we had 3600 students and 6000 proposals ? or something like that I would have to look it up | 17:12 |
| James--Crook | Merio: OK, so it's not an instant thing, but it's well known territory. | 17:12 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: ballpark is fine. | 17:12 |
| James--Crook | We're not going to be CPU limitted. | 17:12 |
| solydzajs | nope :-) | 17:12 |
| Merio | James--Crook: oh certainly... is just something that with JavaScript is odd :P | 17:12 |
| James--Crook | I do have other questions, but they are less important than understanding the flavours of the two projects more. | 17:13 |
| solydzajs | if we use datatable jquery plugin we can feed it with the result data and we will get sorting for free | 17:13 |
| James--Crook | indeed. | 17:13 |
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| solydzajs | so lets leave sorting issue for now :-) | 17:14 |
| Merio | solydzajs: yes for sure ^__^ Actually I was thinking of sorting before feeding visualizations, but yes.. it's not a primary concern now :P | 17:14 |
| James--Crook | so we're back to... we could have good simple stats by mid term with one students work. | 17:15 |
| solydzajs | Merio: yep we can always do it on backend side, we will figure it out :-) that is our smallest problem :-) | 17:15 |
| James--Crook | To me what that says is | 17:15 |
| Merio | solydzajs: agree :) | 17:15 |
| James--Crook | that we need to be planning for stats features that have spin offs in other areas. | 17:15 |
| James--Crook | For example | 17:15 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: well have you read Merio proposal ? | 17:15 |
| James--Crook | Something that is really cool is alex picos classification of orgs | 17:15 |
| James--Crook | yes. | 17:15 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: he has a lot of ideas of stats. | 17:16 |
| James--Crook | yes. | 17:16 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: and I'm sure I will come up with more too :-) | 17:16 |
| James--Crook | yes. But... Mario could do that all on his own. And we'd have timelines and word clouds and lots of other very cool stuff. | 17:16 |
| James--Crook | Now what I see... is that the org classification is an interesting thing to start deriving stats off. | 17:17 |
| James--Crook | So.... do assembler projects tend (by and large) to be more successful than php projects? | 17:18 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: what we need is backend (Jobs), storing results in some model, caching results, displaying results in different formats (Chart API, Visualization API, Table), export of results, Stats settings view where we can configure what kind of stats are supported and what we need to gather, and all the dashboards for different Roles. | 17:18 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: it might look like it's simple but it's not that trivial | 17:18 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: maybe frontend yes, but not backend, Merio you agree ? | 17:19 |
| * James--Crook waits for response from Merio | 17:19 | |
| James--Crook | Merio? | 17:20 |
| Merio | James--Crook: well frontend and backend might be complex or trivial as anyone wants | 17:20 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: I hate both asm and php so it's not a question for me | 17:20 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: well I hate PHP more, so well I will go with asm :-) | 17:20 |
| James--Crook | So, if we KISS. If we just go for something that kicks ass with regards to simple pie charts and bar charts and tables? | 17:22 |
| solydzajs | Merio: if you look at the big picture of this project I don't think it's trivial, if you want to make it work smothly, be extensible and manageable then it requires more work then a trivial "Oh I will fetch the data save it as whatever I come up with and I'm done" | 17:22 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: please say some more... | 17:22 |
| Merio | solydzajs: for example if you want a frontend with an iGoogle interface.. than it would be a little bit more complex. The thing I'm worried the most that we will end up with X different stats with "X" being any high number. Doing a job for every different statistic... without having something really extensible without some programming | 17:23 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: if we get the gathering of data part done then I think frontend will not be a problem for either Daniel or Merio | 17:23 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: agree... | 17:23 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: so lets focus on solving this part first | 17:23 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: and i'd add that that is the part that we can elaborate safely. What we need now is a clearer understanding of collecting the data. | 17:24 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: great minds :-) | 17:24 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: yes agree, so I will try to describe it in more details till Friday on wiki page | 17:24 |
| James--Crook | so... on the stats page and in e-mails we outline the spike solution... | 17:24 |
| solydzajs | yep | 17:24 |
| solydzajs | exactly | 17:24 |
| James--Crook | which is a job that loads a json object, adds to it, and writes back to it... | 17:25 |
| James--Crook | That much looks simple (provided you know about models, pyton and memcache) :-) | 17:25 |
| solydzajs | yep saves it in some model, cache the results | 17:25 |
| solydzajs | indicates whether stat is complete or not | 17:25 |
| Merio | James--Crook: studying them during these days ^__^ | 17:25 |
| James--Crook | I could see us having a first cut of that by this time next week. (with zero flexibility to it) | 17:25 |
| solydzajs | has a previous stats always saved too | 17:25 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: even better. | 17:26 |
| solydzajs | so while it processes new stats you can always access them | 17:26 |
| James--Crook | I think that is going to work smoothly. | 17:26 |
| James--Crook | At this stage we don't worry about that cache being invalidated by new changes in the underlying data. | 17:26 |
| solydzajs | we cache only the stats that are finished | 17:27 |
| James--Crook | So... I want to check with you Pawel that we are not worried about getting to that stage. | 17:27 |
| James--Crook | Yes? | 17:27 |
| solydzajs | the JSON object that is completed might be cached | 17:27 |
| solydzajs | but partial JSON won't be | 17:27 |
| James--Crook | why not? | 17:27 |
| Merio | If something goes wrong we've a complete JSON cached anyway I think :) | 17:28 |
| solydzajs | why would you want to cache something that will change with next Job ? | 17:28 |
| James--Crook | Because job is adding to it. | 17:28 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: imagine the scenario: | 17:28 |
| James--Crook | Terminology issue. | 17:28 |
| solydzajs | we set that stats A will be generated every 1h | 17:29 |
| James--Crook | I'm actually talking about one 'timeslice' of the job. | 17:29 |
| solydzajs | the gathering of data required for stats A takes about 5 minutes | 17:29 |
| James--Crook | so it takes 5 timeslices. | 17:29 |
| James--Crook | so at timeslice 3 there is a partial object cached. | 17:30 |
| solydzajs | it's 11:01 so the jobs started to work on new stats | 17:30 |
| solydzajs | but we still need to access the old ones at this time | 17:30 |
| James--Crook | Yes, correct, but that is a different instance. | 17:30 |
| solydzajs | the jobs are appending data to new JSON object | 17:30 |
| solydzajs | while we are still accessing the old data | 17:31 |
| James--Crook | It's only when the partial object is complete that we write it to the reference copy. (or whatever name we give to it) | 17:31 |
| solydzajs | and the old data are cached of course | 17:31 |
| solydzajs | yep reference copy is one thing | 17:31 |
| solydzajs | but memcache is other thing | 17:31 |
| James--Crook | but solydzajs we can have multiple objects in memcache... | 17:31 |
| * SRabbelier thinks this is pretty obvious | 17:32 | |
| SRabbelier | we have 2 different cached objects | 17:32 |
| solydzajs | well true | 17:32 |
| SRabbelier | 1 "in progress" | 17:32 |
| SRabbelier | 2 "done, and serving" | 17:32 |
| solydzajs | yep ok | 17:32 |
| SRabbelier | no? | 17:32 |
| * SRabbelier goes back to lurking | 17:32 | |
| James--Crook | I'm beginning to see why you were worried. | 17:32 |
| solydzajs | ok that way Jobs will have quicker access to the partial JSON | 17:32 |
| James--Crook | I think we do need clarity in the design. | 17:32 |
| solydzajs | got it | 17:32 |
| solydzajs | ah it's late :D | 17:32 |
| James--Crook | no problem. | 17:33 |
| James--Crook | Well, I am still looking at exactly what will be in the JSON object. | 17:33 |
| James--Crook | But I think we have enough to get started there. | 17:33 |
| James--Crook | And I think this means that the kind of stats (andf a lot more) that Danderson produced last year | 17:34 |
| Merio | James--Crook: my guess in the stats wiki page is based basically only in what's need for visualization API, perhaps more is needed for dashboard and other interactions | 17:34 |
| James--Crook | will really be a very realistic goal for mid term. Even comfortable, baring major GAE FUs. | 17:34 |
| solydzajs | Merio: I will put more info there in the upcoming days | 17:34 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: we will see what Google announces during Google I/O :-) | 17:34 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: maybe some more fancy stuff ;-) | 17:35 |
| Merio | solydzajs: ok, I'll try to do something too | 17:35 |
| solydzajs | Merio: ok thanks :-) | 17:35 |
| James--Crook | So I want to come back to how tags tie into stats. because I do see some things that need thinking about there. It would be a disaster if they were designed without stats in mind. | 17:35 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: tags meeting is tomorrow | 17:35 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: please join us | 17:36 |
| James--Crook | I know, but stats discussion is today. | 17:36 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: depending on where we decide to use tags, we can later on do statistics based on the tags | 17:36 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: for example like I did for GHOP last year | 17:36 |
| Merio | (solydzajs: when will the tags meeting be?) | 17:37 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: tasks based on category, like documentation ,code , translation etc | 17:37 |
| James--Crook | As I see it the stats experts need to be involved in thought about the design of tags. | 17:37 |
| solydzajs | Merio: melange-soc-dev :-) | 17:37 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: interesting, and how did you collect your tables? | 17:37 |
| James--Crook | (i.e. the tables from which you generated the charts) | 17:38 |
| Merio | (solydzajs: ops, didn't download new mail :P) | 17:38 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: Oh I was parsing code.google.com Issue tracker html output :-) | 17:38 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: that was the only way ;-) | 17:38 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: with Melange it's going to be much simpler :-) | 17:38 |
| James--Crook | OK. We do NOT WANT TO BE DOING THAT FOR GHOP THIS TIME! | 17:38 |
| * James--Crook nods | 17:38 | |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: no it was because we used Issue Tracker for last GHOP | 17:38 |
| James--Crook | indeed. | 17:38 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: it was pain :-) | 17:38 |
| James--Crook | indeed :-) | 17:39 |
| James--Crook | so I bet there were issues beyond just the screen scraping. | 17:39 |
| solydzajs | yep :-) | 17:39 |
| James--Crook | So, decision, should stats people be involved in a solution this time round? | 17:40 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: I was producing those charts : | 17:40 |
| solydzajs | http://opentouch.info/tmp/ghop/ghop-stats.html | 17:40 |
| tpb | Title: GHOP Statistics (at opentouch.info) | 17:40 |
| James--Crook | (stats people = Mario and Daniel) | 17:41 |
| James--Crook | solydzajs: opinion? | 17:41 |
| SRabbelier | James--Crook: yes, I think they should be involved | 17:41 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: yes they should be | 17:41 |
| * Merio is happy with that :P | 17:41 | |
| solydzajs | :-) | 17:41 |
| James--Crook | SRabbelier: I'm not interested in your opinion (well I am) this is a project decision. | 17:41 |
| James--Crook | OK. (sorry srabbelier, didn't mean to be rude) | 17:42 |
| SRabbelier | James--Crook: np :) | 17:42 |
| James--Crook | OK. That clears one very important thing up for me. | 17:42 |
| James--Crook | The other one is a little bit related. | 17:43 |
| James--Crook | Looking at how LH used stats last year. | 17:43 |
| James--Crook | They were always embedded in docs. | 17:43 |
| solydzajs | This project is a team work and we treat our GSoC Students as team members :-) | 17:43 |
| James--Crook | Now I don't think it is a good idea to have lots of chart parameters flying around in a doc. | 17:43 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: in what docs ? have you been involved in GHOP ? and what stats are you talking about right now ? | 17:44 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 17:44 |
| James--Crook | I'm talking about the participation-by-region for GSoC that appeared in the blog. | 17:44 |
| James--Crook | GSoC did not have any publishing ability at that time. | 17:45 |
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| solydzajs | James--Crook: yep ok and what about that ? Leslie will be able to export those charts or save them | 17:45 |
| James--Crook | There was also a later one that Mario pointed me to that had the participation top-ten schools. | 17:45 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: stats are not only used for blog posts | 17:45 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: ok I don't see any problem ? | 17:46 |
| James--Crook | Rather than add a brand new way to put text boxes beside a chart. | 17:46 |
| James--Crook | It seems to me that a string substitution $Pie(ChartName) will do the job very nicely. | 17:46 |
| James--Crook | It seems to give us a lot with two or three lines of python code. | 17:47 |
| solydzajs | Visualization API is really powerful, we can even provide a button where when LH click on it she will get nice HTML that she can embed on the blog post which will generate the same chart output | 17:47 |
| James--Crook | OK. | 17:48 |
| solydzajs | this is something we can worry about later I think :-) | 17:48 |
| solydzajs | we need basics first | 17:48 |
| James--Crook | I think probably the other things I'm thinking about can be taken off line. | 17:48 |
| James--Crook | Yes. Basics first. | 17:48 |
| solydzajs | cool ;-) agreed here :-) | 17:49 |
| James--Crook | OK. So I think I am done for the moment. | 17:49 |
| James--Crook | Mario? | 17:49 |
| solydzajs | James--Crook: ok thanks a lot for this discussion | 17:49 |
| Merio | Well.. nothing more to say ATM | 17:49 |
| James--Crook | Thank you Pawel. I wanted to get 'in sunc'. | 17:50 |
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| solydzajs | James--Crook: sure thing :-) | 17:50 |
| James--Crook | s/sunc/sync/ | 17:50 |
| solydzajs | Merio: thanks for participating | 17:50 |
| James--Crook | OK. | 17:50 |
| James--Crook | so I think that is meeting done then. | 17:50 |
| solydzajs | ttyl guys and I'm looking forward to your review of my wiki page changes :-) | 17:50 |
| James--Crook | ho ho :-) | 17:51 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 17:51 |
| solydzajs | cheers | 17:51 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 17:51 |
| James--Crook | bfn | 17:51 |
| solydzajs | and g'night :-) | 17:51 |
| Merio | cheers :) | 17:51 |
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