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| Vadtec | JLP: you active? | 01:31 |
|---|---|---|
| Vadtec | or anyone who actively uses the wiki | 01:31 |
| Vadtec | either im getting tired or im missing the link for creating articles in the wiki | 01:32 |
| Vadtec | oh | 01:33 |
| Vadtec | der | 01:33 |
| Vadtec | nvm | 01:33 |
| Vadtec | mithro: are you active? | 01:52 |
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| Vadtec | llnz: hi | 01:58 |
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| llnz | hi Vadtec | 02:05 |
| Vadtec | llnz: http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Vadtecs_proposal | 02:06 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/33t:> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 02:06 |
| Vadtec | i just posted my proposal to the wiki | 02:07 |
| Vadtec | and im working on improving it now | 02:07 |
| Vadtec | llnz: if you have time, i have a question that i havent been able to answer via google or the like about unit testing | 02:07 |
| Vadtec | though i imagine its a semantic issue rather than technical | 02:08 |
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| llnz | sorry, have been busy fixing a broken server 300km away | 02:45 |
| llnz | will look shortly | 02:45 |
| Vadtec | llnz: no worries | 02:46 |
| Vadtec | llnz: http://www.thousandparsec.net/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/Vadtecs_proposal | 03:20 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/33t:> (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 03:20 |
| Vadtec | llnz: in case you missed the link before hand, I am going to bed, i look forward to seeing what changes i can make to improve my proposal | 03:20 |
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| BarryCarlyon | Mornin all. | 05:29 |
| llnz | hi BarryCarlyon | 05:30 |
| BarryCarlyon | How are we today? | 05:48 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | holy chocolate jesus | 05:53 |
| llnz | i'm sorting out the dist-upgrade of a server 300km away | 05:53 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | semi signed what integer is the first thing in the morning I trip over? | 05:55 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | nah, Im still dreaming :D | 05:56 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | anyway, morning to all | 05:58 |
| BarryCarlyon | Morning :-P | 06:00 |
| CIA-65 | llnz tpserver-cpp * r2ada83cc109b /Makefile.am: | 06:22 |
| CIA-65 | Added missing files to tarball creation | 06:22 |
| CIA-65 | Quickstart for tae and risk, and default map for risk will be in | 06:22 |
| CIA-65 | the next release. | 06:22 |
| shenki | llnz: is libtool2 libtool version >= 2, or is it a different piece of software entirely? | 06:33 |
| llnz | version >= 2 | 06:34 |
| llnz | in debian because of package versioning it's called libtool2 | 06:34 |
| shenki | hmm | 06:34 |
| shenki | $ apt-cache policy libtool | 06:34 |
| shenki | libtool: Installed: 2.2.6a-1ubuntu1 | 06:34 |
| shenki | no such thing as libtool2 tho | 06:35 |
| llnz | shenki: sorry i haven't gotten to shave yet | 06:35 |
| llnz | oh... maybe it's just me that calls it that | 06:35 |
| llnz | then | 06:35 |
| shenki | hehe | 06:35 |
| shenki | llnz: no worries bout shave :) just as long as you know where to find it, for when you get around to it | 06:35 |
| llnz | that server upgrade took me much longer than i hoped | 06:36 |
| llnz | should have been an hour, took 4 | 06:36 |
| shenki | what server? | 06:36 |
| llnz | debain web/mail/etc server for a non-profit org i used to help out with | 06:38 |
| shenki | ahh | 06:38 |
| llnz | it's about 300km away and i rebooted it twice | 06:38 |
| llnz | fingers crossed and everything | 06:39 |
| llnz | hoping it comes back up | 06:39 |
| llnz | (it did) | 06:39 |
| shenki | good work :) | 06:39 |
| shenki | you did better than mithro and his server in germany | 06:39 |
| llnz | oh? | 06:40 |
| mithro | shenki: I blame you | 06:40 |
| llnz | hehe | 06:40 |
| shenki | :) | 06:40 |
| llnz | 6 hours to alarm, i should sleep | 06:41 |
| * llnz wanders off | 06:42 | |
| llnz | later all | 06:42 |
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| shenki | hmm, does llnz read scrollback? | 06:46 |
| shenki | removing recursive from the libtoolize line in autogen.sh breaks the build for me | 06:46 |
| mithro | shenki: yes and no | 06:48 |
| mithro | shenki: did he push the change? | 06:48 |
| mithro | I think we want to do a | 06:49 |
| mithro | libtool xxx --resursive || libtool xxxx | 06:49 |
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| mithro | well I'm going to head home | 06:54 |
| mithro | see ya! | 06:54 |
| shenki | ok, cya | 06:56 |
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| JLP | good morning everyone | 08:05 |
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| tote | how many did apply for tp last year? | 08:23 |
| JLP | tote: if i remember correctly there were about 50 | 08:24 |
| Patrick` | don't suppose you'd be able to tell us how many spaces there are this year? | 08:25 |
| tote | JLP: ok :) | 08:25 |
| tote | Patrick`: they dont know that yet i think | 08:25 |
| BarryCarlyon | The number of spaces is loosly based on project ideas and how many people apply. | 08:26 |
| BarryCarlyon | I was reading something about it recently. | 08:26 |
| JLP | yup and also depends on hoe man people apply to other otgs | 08:26 |
| tote | JLP: how many did get in last year? | 08:26 |
| JLP | 8 | 08:26 |
| BarryCarlyon | I didnt realise so many people applyed to TP last year. | 08:27 |
| BarryCarlyon | It will make applying this year more interesting I imagine. | 08:27 |
| Patrick` | I should probably make more than one application this year | 08:27 |
| BarryCarlyon | I'm planning on applying for working on the web based client project. | 08:27 |
| tote | BarryCarlyon: me 2 :) | 08:27 |
| BarryCarlyon | Patrick`, I did two last year and got accepted on both, which was good fun. | 08:27 |
| BarryCarlyon | tote, what language you want to use? Im a PHP coder. | 08:28 |
| tote | python :) | 08:28 |
| Patrick` | I thought the orgs decided which would get you, without you knowing | 08:28 |
| BarryCarlyon | Patrick`, both orgs approached me saying I'd been accepted on both, which do you want. | 08:28 |
| Patrick` | oh cool | 08:28 |
| Patrick` | was that kamaelia? | 08:29 |
| BarryCarlyon | Yip. | 08:29 |
| Patrick` | I can't remember if it was you or someone else | 08:29 |
| BarryCarlyon | And PHP. | 08:29 |
| Patrick` | cool, what was your project for K? | 08:29 |
| Patrick` | er, proposal | 08:29 |
| BarryCarlyon | The white board I think. | 08:29 |
| BarryCarlyon | I ended up on PHP. | 08:29 |
| Patrick` | ah yeah, needed a bit of work | 08:29 |
| BarryCarlyon | Kamaelia isnt mentoring this year is it? | 08:29 |
| Patrick` | no, or I'd have gone back | 08:30 |
| BarryCarlyon | But since tote is going for the same thing I am, gonna be interesting application writing wise. | 08:30 |
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| tote | BarryCarlyon :) | 08:31 |
| BarryCarlyon | Especially since we are different core languages. | 08:31 |
| BarryCarlyon | If I knew enough python I would do it in python since TP is python based itself. | 08:31 |
| tote | BarryCarlyon: which javascript framework? :) | 08:32 |
| BarryCarlyon | Either my own or jquery. | 08:32 |
| BarryCarlyon | Ive never used a framework js wise. | 08:32 |
| BarryCarlyon | But I hear good things about jquery. | 08:33 |
| BarryCarlyon | I've used prototype and scriptaculous for their effects tho. | 08:33 |
| BarryCarlyon | I like to generate custom javascript on the fly with my php. | 08:33 |
| Landon | sounds painful | 08:33 |
| BarryCarlyon | Not paticularly Landon good fun. | 08:33 |
| Landon | let me rephrase then :P sounds like good funin the way programming assembly is good fun | 08:34 |
| BarryCarlyon | Rofl | 08:34 |
| tote | haha :) | 08:34 |
| BarryCarlyon | I think its becuase I tend to make php do most of the work and javascript for shunting stuff into the DOM. | 08:35 |
| tote | just finished a course in assembly :) it was fun but hard work | 08:35 |
| BarryCarlyon | Im more of a web coder so not much on programming coding. | 08:35 |
| BarryCarlyon | But I still remember my BASIC and some C and C++ | 08:35 |
| BarryCarlyon | Used to program on a Dragon32 back in the day. | 08:36 |
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| Patrick` | can I ask about some details of tp and rulesets? | 09:10 |
| Patrick` | pretty obvious questions | 09:10 |
| Patrick` | specifically, I *imagine* that rulesets are described in some metafile way | 09:12 |
| Patrick` | and its the job of the servers to implement specific things that the rulesets call on | 09:12 |
| Patrick` | e.g. planets having stats | 09:12 |
| Patrick` | so it's not that a ruleset has to be recreated, just that all the hooks it uses need to be supported | 09:13 |
| JLP | Patrick`: as far as i know you have to code each ruleset separately for each server, there is no common file that could be then used by both | 09:17 |
| Patrick` | ok, that also works | 09:17 |
| Patrick` | it also makes my job easier to break down | 09:17 |
| Patrick` | I've decided to stick firmly to "updating and improving tpserver-py" | 09:17 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | JLP: that would also interest me .. is there any deeper design idea behind coding each ruleset separately, rather than having a common framework and basket of objects and actions available? or is that just because minisec came first, and the other were just cloned & something added to them ... | 09:22 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: hm i wouldn't know if this is by design or not, i wasn't with TP when this has been decided | 09:24 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: porbably it is thi way because it is less complicated and there is more flexibility on how you make ruleset | 09:25 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: but to be sure why this is so mithro ro llnz would sure know more about it | 09:25 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | I can imagine that you can have some objects (planets, ships, fleets, missiles etc) and actions (couple, decouple, create, destroy, damage) and when creating new ruleset you will just throw the objects into one pot and define which actions apply to which of them. Sort of like stl containers (those objects) and stl algorithms (actions)... | 09:27 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | JLP: ok, ill ask them when they are back. | 09:27 |
| Patrick` | at a certain point though, abstracting and separating things out can just end up making a lot more work | 09:28 |
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| JLP | well i imagine it this way, if you are a game design company and you would like to use TP for your next 4X game, TP would be some kind of a glue and framework to make things easier to get started, but the game (ruleset) you would be designing would be the bigger part of your work, together with graphics and sound | 09:30 |
| JLP | so you would probably decide on one server and then just start coidng the ruleset for it and making the prettey graphics and sounds | 09:31 |
| JLP | then you package it all together nicely and you releae your game :) | 09:32 |
| Patrick` | indeed | 09:32 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | hmm, Ive just had a quick look into the cpp server ruleset module, and it really looks like there are some common parts | 09:34 |
| Patrick` | ok, so it currently looks like rulesets are implemented pretty much just as they are | 09:35 |
| Patrick` | and the backbone of the code from the server handles things like the networking, the database, the authentication and so on | 09:35 |
| Patrick` | but the question is, does the python server simply support less rulesets or are the actual tools/framework less polished as well? | 09:36 |
| JLP | yeah, the ruleset is the actual game logic, and all the other stuff is provided by server so you don't need to fiddle with it much and you can concentrate on ruleset | 09:36 |
| Patrick` | mithro: ping | 09:36 |
| JLP | Patrick`: i don't think python server supports less or couldn't support some ruleset c++ server does | 09:38 |
| Patrick` | ok, that seems sound | 09:38 |
| JLP | as long as all the stuff that is defined in protocol is supported they should both support the same things | 09:38 |
| Patrick` | even if e.g. MTSec would need to be rewritten from scratch | 09:39 |
| Patrick` | or ported with a magical tool | 09:39 |
| Patrick` | now when you say protocol, are we talking the actual network protocol files? I recall there is some meta stuff about that which uses XML | 09:39 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | JLP: eh, just one question, the rulesets got developed over the whole time, is it possible that they have basically the same files (some), but each differ from each other becouse some rulesets are newer than others? | 09:40 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | so i.e. colonise class is in all of them | 09:40 |
| JLP | when i say protocol i mean what is possible, for example if all orders stuff is supported then you can use the same stuff in both servers, if all in-universe object stuff is supported you can use this anywhere | 09:41 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | but it differs a bit in each of them, except minisec and mtsec, which are identical | 09:41 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | but some are called coloniZe | 09:41 |
| JLP | on the other hand if some server would support diplomacy part and other not then you couldn port diplomacy stuff from one to another | 09:41 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | some are in their own namespace, some not | 09:41 |
| JLP | colonise is just one function in the ruleset which you can export through the orders framework/hooks in the server | 09:42 |
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| JLP | basicly you write functions for any order you would need in a ruleset, and then you define on which object this order can act | 09:43 |
| Patrick` | ok, and the server would already support colonisation, combat | 09:43 |
| Patrick` | but maybe not trading | 09:43 |
| JLP | of course you can have the same order name in two different rulesets, and they can act the same or not | 09:43 |
| Patrick` | I'm gonna have to write a ruleset to see how it works! | 09:44 |
| JLP | well the server itself only knoes what order is and how to send it over network and how to handle them | 09:45 |
| JLP | all the specifics about an order are handlede by ruleset inself, with a specific function | 09:46 |
| JLP | and on the client side, the client also only has to know what an order is and then the client writer decides how to represent that order in the client | 09:46 |
| Patrick` | ok, so the server's more towards the minimalist side of things | 09:46 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | it just sends and recieves frames, unpack them for the ruleset and it then decides what to do with it | 09:47 |
| Patrick` | server says "hey ruleset, I got told to colonise. what does that mean?" and the ruleset is all "well, this planet has changed owners" | 09:47 |
| JLP | yeah, server si like a post office | 09:48 |
| JLP | or postal service | 09:48 |
| Patrick` | hmm :/ | 09:48 |
| Patrick` | sounds as if both servers are small and feature-complete, thenceforth not requiring my attention | 09:49 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | im starting to get it ... so if you want to implement new order, you first write new frame type in protocol | 09:49 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | and then you can use it in ruleset | 09:49 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: well you don't have to make a new frame, you only use the existing order frame | 09:50 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | *quick look into proto spec* | 09:50 |
| JLP | server only has to know what something is, in which category it belongs, and ruleset and clients need to bother how this thing works and how it should be represented | 09:52 |
| Patrick` | but the server does track planets, fleets, and owners? | 09:52 |
| JLP | ruleset does this | 09:53 |
| Patrick` | this would probably be easier if I just read the server's files then :) | 09:53 |
| Patrick` | it sounds quite tidy | 09:53 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | ah, so it would not be *THAT* hard to add research for example? you will just send order frame lasting 3 rounds which says "plasma cannons for player 2" and if there is a function in the ruleset to handle it, it would work | 09:54 |
| Patrick` | ok, right, there seem to be some common ruleset functions stored in "base" | 09:55 |
| Patrick` | but most of them are specialised | 09:55 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: hm yeah, but then again orders framework wouldn't be the right "tool" for reserach concepts, as they differ quite a bit | 09:56 |
| Patrick` | ok, the server supports types of frames | 09:57 |
| Patrick` | objects, orders | 09:57 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | why .. you build research units like you build ships, just they cant be destroyed, you can research them only once, and they have some prereq units. I dont see a difference between building a ship and advancing in research tree. | 09:58 |
| tote | is the ruleset in the client and/or the server? should a client be able to play to all games that a server support? | 09:59 |
| Patrick` | I imagine so, within reason | 09:59 |
| Patrick` | but obviously I have no idea | 09:59 |
| JLP | well yeah, a client should be able to visualise an order, even if it has no specific knowledge about what it does | 10:00 |
| Patrick` | ooh, I have a good toy example - a self-destruct order | 10:01 |
| JLP | it might not be the best representation of order, but it should at least be usable | 10:01 |
| tote | ok | 10:01 |
| Patrick` | the client should be able to pick it from a list without the client knowing what it actually is | 10:01 |
| Patrick` | the server will send it merrily as an Order | 10:02 |
| Patrick` | and it'll be the ruleset that deletes your fleet and damages everyone else in range | 10:02 |
| JLP | of course when a game company would do it, they would only make one complex ruleset and tune their client to do the best possible visualisations for that specific ruleset | 10:02 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | and then client redownloads current state of the universe from the server | 10:02 |
| Patrick` | and says "fleet destroyed!" or whatever, even if it didn't grok what had happened | 10:03 |
| JLP | yup | 10:03 |
| Patrick` | ok, so now that I actually understand what's going on, I know it wouldn't be particularly worthwhile of me to do another ruleset ATM | 10:04 |
| JLP | and if client would be stupid it would just show wthat some ships are no there anymore | 10:04 |
| Patrick` | or reimplement e.g. MTSec in python | 10:04 |
| JLP | and if the client knew what happend it could animate an explosion | 10:04 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | JLP: is there any way in the current/planned protocol for client to ask server for list of avail order frame types etc? | 10:05 |
| Patrick` | so where does the Scheme come into it? | 10:05 |
| Patrick` | it seems to be ... pervasive | 10:06 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: rulesets already define what orders are possible and which objects/orders can be combined | 10:06 |
| JLP | Patrick`: scheme is used in ship designing, so you can set some constrants for cost/slots/types of tech... | 10:07 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | no, I mean, if I wanted to make this "stupid" client with no clue what an order means, it just knows it can send them .. but he wans to ask server "hey, send me a list, ill show it to my user, he will pick one, he prolly knows what it does" .. | 10:08 |
| JLP | and scheme comes into play when server has to validate that the user defined ship design is sound | 10:08 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | just out of curiosity, I dont even know why I want to know :) | 10:08 |
| Patrick` | ok, cool | 10:08 |
| Patrick` | custom ship designs is something that some rulesets do or is it a server-supported? | 10:10 |
| JLP | skiffcz-gsoc: there is some way to send a list of destinations (if you mean this), just as in risk ruleset or RFTS ruleset, where you can select the destionation from a dropdown | 10:10 |
| JLP | Patrick`: ruleset defined | 10:11 |
| Patrick` | k, thought so | 10:11 |
| JLP | it is just the same as with order, server and protocol provide this concept and then ruleset has to use it if it wants | 10:11 |
| * JLP is almost sure mithro and llnz will correct some of my explanations I gave here, as he also doesn't know everythng in detail yet | 10:13 | |
| Patrick` | yeah, sorry :) | 10:13 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | hm, i start to like this project more and more :) It is now pretty stupid for me to say its pretty clever, but its pretty clever nevertheless. | 10:13 |
| Patrick` | Right, I've done a bit of unit -testing, and mostly on network code but only a few handfuls of pages. Reckon it's not enough to base a whole proposal on? | 10:14 |
| Patrick` | I know I can pick it up easy enough, but obviously I can't convey that on a bit of paper | 10:14 |
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| Patrick` | right | 10:24 |
| Patrick` | my downstairs neighbour has killed his PC | 10:24 |
| Patrick` | so much for SoC day | 10:24 |
| BCarlyon|Server | rofl | 10:25 |
| Patrick` | someone email me a spare psu, I'm out | 10:27 |
| BCarlyon|Server | ill email the plans in a moment if I can find them | 10:28 |
| JLP | hehe | 10:28 |
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| Patrick` | ok, so I'm going to test my PSU in his machine | 11:18 |
| Patrick` | I might kill both of them | 11:18 |
| Patrick` | stupid no-spare-having antihoarder | 11:18 |
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| Patrick` | ezod, llnz, tansell/mithro - what would be more useful, unit testing in libtpproto/client or porting to twisted? | 12:33 |
| Patrick` | and, er, anyone I've forgotten | 12:34 |
| ezod | Patrick`: porting to twisted? | 12:36 |
| Patrick` | the python networking | 12:36 |
| Patrick` | I've looked in it | 12:36 |
| ezod | yeah, was there already discussion about that? | 12:36 |
| Patrick` | I know it was described as a daunting task | 12:36 |
| Patrick` | I reckon that either of them is within my grasp | 12:37 |
| ezod | ok - i know a strong unit testing proposal has really good chances | 12:38 |
| Patrick` | I haven't got years with twisted but I understand the principles, I've written networking stuff from scratch before | 12:38 |
| Patrick` | ditto for unit testing - probably a little weaker | 12:38 |
| ezod | so could you outline briefly what we gain from porting to twisted? | 12:39 |
| ezod | (and have you already gone over this with others?) | 12:39 |
| Patrick` | not explicitly yet | 12:39 |
| ezod | i'm only superficially familiar with twisted (although i'd like to learn more) so i don't think i have a clear picture | 12:40 |
| Patrick` | My understanding is that you just have a lot more flexibility to do more with the network, run dameonized, have "proper" logging | 12:41 |
| Patrick` | as far as I can see it's not even using a select loop or asyncore, but polling. | 12:44 |
| Patrick` | now granted, this is Fine For Us | 12:45 |
| Patrick` | (because it's not like 100ms of latency will really mess up a game that generates one turn every 10 minutes) | 12:45 |
| Patrick` | I'd probably rate my own skills slightly higher with Twisted than with unit testing, but I'm capable of getting up to speed in time | 12:46 |
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| ezod | Patrick`: so how would porting to twisted affect the non-python protocol components? | 12:59 |
| Patrick` | ah, well I wouldn't know much about that, it's outside my area of expertise | 13:00 |
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| Patrick` | but I presume since they're already either meshed with python or part of the cpp server, they'd just keep doing what they were doing unless some of the actual network code was non-python | 13:00 |
| ezod | well there are protocol libraries for c++, ruby, php, and java as well | 13:01 |
| Patrick` | learning another language is not something I'd attempt in the timeframe, I'd fail | 13:02 |
| ezod | that's not what i'm suggesting | 13:02 |
| Patrick` | ok, but yeah, ok, it would enable more cross-language stuff? | 13:03 |
| ezod | in any case it seems to me the unit testing would be higher priority | 13:04 |
| Patrick` | what my thought is, though, is that if the networking code got a test suite, and then it got replaced with twisted, a lot of the low-level stuff would have to be rewritten | 13:05 |
| Patrick` | but yeah, I agree | 13:05 |
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| Patrick` | I think I might actually have test code from my own networking code I wrote that should be my-paradigm-agnostic, I can probably reuse it and whip up a demo tonigth | 13:05 |
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| Patrick` | ... unless my neighbours new PSU doesn't work | 13:07 |
| Patrick` | --> later | 13:07 |
| ezod | Patrick`: true, but i have no reason to suspect that that is going to happen any time soon, hence why i'm asking if you had this conversation with someone else and know something i don't :) | 13:08 |
| BarryCarlyon | Ill hopefully be throwing some ideas round ala web client project later too! | 13:10 |
| ezod | BarryCarlyon: cool | 13:10 |
| BarryCarlyon | First home time for the Student Radio Office | 13:11 |
| Patrick` | ok, no, you're right | 13:13 |
| Patrick` | bbiab | 13:13 |
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| adrian_mo16 | Hi to all, i'm one of the future applicants for GSoC and would like to talk about tpserver-cpp with one of the mentors if that is possible | 14:17 |
| ezod | adrian_mo16: hey, llnz is the guy to talk to, but i've worked on tpserver-cpp too, so i can try to answer your questions | 14:27 |
| adrian_mo16 | ok | 14:27 |
| adrian_mo16 | the main question i had is if the shorter projects in the comination 'calendar timer', 'module system', 'change to Boost.Random' and 'statistics command' would qualify as a whole project for the summer | 14:28 |
| ezod | well, here is my somewhat indirect answer: | 14:30 |
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| ezod | 1. we are definitely looking to improve existing stuff this year, so those projects are relatively good ones to pick | 14:31 |
| ezod | 2. it is certainly possible to have a multi-part proposal like that, but if possible give something to tie them together better than just "general tpserver-cpp improvements" | 14:33 |
| ezod | 3. if you write a good proposal that includes time estimates for each part, you can convince us that your proposal involves the right amount of total work | 14:34 |
| ezod | so, short answer, yes - but strong proposal required :) | 14:34 |
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| adrian_mo16 | About the second point, i don't understand exactly what 'something to tie them together' means, meaning that they are quite separate ideas for the project. Perhaps some some other optimizations for the tpserver-cpp including these? | 14:36 |
| adrian_mo16 | Sorry about the double 'some' :) | 14:36 |
| ezod | what i mean is that usually proposals have some single overall goal (which can be more or less specific) | 14:38 |
| ezod | so rather than just saying "improve tpserver-cpp in these 4 ways," you might be able to present a more convincing case as to why your proposal is valuable if you can give a more unified reason | 14:39 |
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| adrian_mo16 | i see, thanks for the info | 14:39 |
| ezod | which probably requires more research about TP and stuff, and talking to llnz | 14:39 |
| ezod | but really the underlying project could still be those 4 improvements | 14:40 |
| adrian_mo16 | yeah, i got the idea, thanks again | 14:40 |
| ezod | cool, np, feel free to stick around and chat with llnz when you get a chance | 14:41 |
| Patrick` | I feel like a monster | 14:41 |
| adrian_mo16 | sure, i'll do that | 14:41 |
| ezod | Patrick`: what kind? | 14:41 |
| Patrick` | to crowbar tp's python net stuff into the tests I wrote last year, I have to totally butcher and gut them in software :) | 14:41 |
| Patrick` | it's like ripping out an animals still-beating heart and replacing it with a block of wood with "thumpa thumpa" carved into it | 14:42 |
| ezod | bonus points if you include that analogy in your proposal :P | 14:43 |
| Patrick` | I think that one will be on the cutting room floor | 14:43 |
| Patrick` | nobody shall ever know | 14:44 |
| Patrick` | hah | 14:46 |
| Patrick` | I took my socket wrappers and gave them a fake socket to uselessly pound thier fists on | 14:46 |
| Patrick` | never actually just connected two sockets together | 14:46 |
| Patrick` | and did loopback testing | 14:47 |
| Patrick` | anyway, gotta run, I'll be around later on if mithro's back | 14:49 |
| Patrick` | let's talk testing! woo! yeah! | 14:49 |
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| skiffcz-gsoc | (07:41:55 PM) Patrick`: to crowbar tp's python ..... epic | 15:14 |
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| llnz | brb | 15:31 |
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| Patrick` | I just know as soon as I write code to access "private" variables I'm doing something wrong | 15:32 |
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| llnz | morning all | 15:38 |
| ezod | hey llnz | 15:38 |
| llnz | hi ezod | 15:39 |
| ezod | adrian_mo16 was wondering about some tpserver-cpp stuff for gsoc a little while ago | 15:39 |
| llnz | ok | 15:39 |
| adrian_mo16 | i'm still wondering about it :P, though i'm looking through the codebase right now | 15:40 |
| llnz | shenki: yes i do read the logs sometimes :-) | 15:42 |
| adrian_mo16 | the compiling is taking quite longer than i previously expected | 16:02 |
| adrian_mo16 | of tpserver-cpp i mean ;) | 16:02 |
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| llnz | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 16:37 |
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| Epyon | llnz, JLP, any ideas on the secondary C++ proposal? | 18:00 |
| Epyon | ie., a C++ related task that'd be "nice to have" | 18:00 |
| llnz | Epyon: there is a list of them for tpserver-cpp on the Ideas for Programmers page | 18:01 |
| llnz | for libtpproto-cpp... | 18:01 |
| llnz | i don't remember | 18:01 |
| Epyon | hmm, doing EliteSec, I'd need to touch the Persistence issues anyway... | 18:04 |
| llnz | libtpproto-cpp doesn't have any small issues because there are some big ones still be be resolved | 18:04 |
| llnz | the tpserver-cpp shorter projects are good intros and time fillers | 18:04 |
| Epyon | btw, what do you use as the network interface? | 18:05 |
| Epyon | eg. what libraries? | 18:05 |
| llnz | persistence is bigger than it looks | 18:05 |
| llnz | Epyon: what in? tpserver-cpp? | 18:05 |
| Epyon | yep | 18:05 |
| * Epyon hopes Boost.ASIO | 18:05 | |
| llnz | no library, all network interfacing is built in | 18:06 |
| llnz | not asynchronous yet, using select loop though | 18:06 |
| Epyon | How about a project "Boostification of tpserver-cpp" :> | 18:06 |
| * Epyon is working full-time till summer as a linux server developer for Nokia, and learned to value server performance... | 18:07 | |
| llnz | i've been meaning to look at ASIO | 18:07 |
| Epyon | It's... beautiful | 18:07 |
| llnz | cool | 18:07 |
| Epyon | Yet if to go the boost way, one would have to do it all way down. | 18:07 |
| llnz | the basic network stuff is async, but it's the higher managers and persistence that is not | 18:08 |
| Epyon | A proper design for the system would be great, however, I can't do such a design withough browsing through the whole tpserver code -- and that I do not have time at the moment :// | 18:08 |
| llnz | btw, why do you think you would need to change the persistence for EliteSec? | 18:09 |
| Epyon | It stores a *lot* of data | 18:10 |
| Epyon | Unless I'd generate it on demand | 18:10 |
| llnz | persistence can handle a lot of data | 18:10 |
| llnz | the visibility of the data to the clients is up to the ruleset | 18:10 |
| Epyon | BTW, there was a web client developed, what's its status? | 18:11 |
| llnz | student dropped out before really starting :-( | 18:11 |
| Epyon | awww D: | 18:12 |
| llnz | maybe this year... | 18:12 |
| llnz | maybe | 18:13 |
| Epyon | What are the general submission picking guidelines? This year I'd finally like to get into TP... | 18:13 |
| llnz | in general, we are looking for clear, well explained, well researched, achivable proposals that are of the greatest importance (where the importance is fairly wide) | 18:15 |
| llnz | we aren't just looking in a few narrow areas | 18:16 |
| Epyon | "that are of the greatest importance" <-- this is what I'd like to have explained :) | 18:16 |
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| llnz | well... at a guess its: | 18:17 |
| Epyon | hi nash :) | 18:17 |
| llnz | getting more people to play | 18:17 |
| llnz | getting more people to develop | 18:17 |
| nash | Heyo Epyon | 18:17 |
| llnz | advancing the framework overall | 18:17 |
| llnz | making what we have already better | 18:18 |
| Epyon | I think EliteSec would help #1, #3 and #4 :> | 18:20 |
| llnz | (in no particular order) | 18:20 |
| llnz | just for example, the single player mode stuff is basically for #1, with flow on to #2 and #4 | 18:21 |
| Epyon | #1 because it'd be a cool game that'd apply not only to hardcore turn-based game players, #3 because I'd do all the neccessary changes to the server and a picked client, and #4 because there'd be reusable media and client/server modifications :> | 18:21 |
| Epyon | nash, any tips what to include in the EliteSec proposal? | 18:22 |
| nash | Epyon: A playable implementation | 18:23 |
| nash | Epyon: Or a players manual | 18:23 |
| nash | or any thing else that shows you have really started it and not just writng a proposal | 18:23 |
| nash | Epyon: That would apply to any SoC applicant however | 18:24 |
| nash | Epyon: I personally would rather fund someone who is doing it for free then fund someone who is only doing it for hte money | 18:24 |
| Epyon | nash, quite unrealistic considering that I have a full-time job currently :/. I'd probably be glad to do it for free if you gave me the free time + food and lodging :P | 18:25 |
| llnz | Epyon: maybe not full time development, but even doing little bits of documentation over the years would have been a good idea | 18:26 |
| nash | Epyon: So... if you are working full time, how do you propose to do DoC? | 18:26 |
| llnz | see the "Designs in progress" rulesets on the wiki homepage | 18:27 |
| nash | Epyon: llnz is correct | 18:27 |
| llnz | for example, Codename Elvis is my game, just the little bit of docs is helpful | 18:27 |
| nash | Epyon: The more I know how it works and plays the more likely I am to be willing to do it | 18:28 |
| llnz | Epyon: don't be discouaged, you have an idea that could be very interesting | 18:30 |
| Epyon | Well, I can do some documentation before the evaluation deadline, but there are poor chances for a prototype... | 18:33 |
| llnz | Epyon: do what you can | 18:34 |
| llnz | an engaging description of gameplay would help you | 18:34 |
| Epyon | There are also some question about server capabilities that I'd need to have answered | 18:35 |
| llnz | sure | 18:35 |
| nash | Epyon: The biggest barrier for me is quite simply: I love elite, I like the idea, but I'm not sure how it work as a game... So if I'm convinced it would work, I'm all happy | 18:35 |
| Epyon | For example, how is actually turn length controlled? | 18:35 |
| nash | Or at least reasonable confident it woudl work | 18:36 |
| llnz | Epyon: pluggable methods, currently either fixed time, or turn ends when all players signalled that they are finished | 18:36 |
| llnz | (or by threshold in between) | 18:37 |
| llnz | it's going to be simplified a little soon | 18:37 |
| Epyon | The latter would be pretty annoying when we have more than a few players. | 18:37 |
| llnz | yeah | 18:38 |
| Epyon | What about support for a mixed version? Each turn ends either when all participants do a turn, or an hour passes? | 18:38 |
| llnz | hence the thresholding, fixed max time, if threshold (x%) finish, then shorter time | 18:39 |
| llnz | again, because they are pluggable, can be changed easily | 18:39 |
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| Epyon | Ok, and waht about a fine turn granularity ( like one turn per 10 minutes ) but some actions taking lot more time ( fleet movement, ETA 1h20...) | 18:40 |
| llnz | actions (orders) can take many turns | 18:41 |
| llnz | for example, in minisec moving from one star system to another | 18:41 |
| Epyon | Great, that'd be the way to go with elite | 18:41 |
| llnz | in TAE and Risk and RftS different turns do different things | 18:42 |
| llnz | rfts in particular | 18:42 |
| Epyon | And what about the current combat implementations? | 18:44 |
| Epyon | How are they executed, reported, what ( and if at all ) decision factor is there? | 18:44 |
| llnz | combat is totally up to the ruleset | 18:44 |
| llnz | battle XML support should come sometime soon | 18:45 |
| llnz | (maybe SoC) | 18:45 |
| Epyon | I'm just judging the engine/protocol restrictions | 18:45 |
| Epyon | As for the current version of TP | 18:45 |
| llnz | see rpscombat in minisec | 18:45 |
| llnz | and similar things in the other rulesets | 18:46 |
| Epyon | code or coc? | 18:46 |
| Epyon | doc* | 18:46 |
| llnz | both, see how they match up | 18:46 |
| Epyon | is there anywhere a documentation of a combat protocol outside of the code? | 18:46 |
| llnz | there is no combat protocol | 18:47 |
| llnz | battle xml is a representation of what when on in the combat after it has occured | 18:47 |
| Epyon | I meant documentation of an examplish combat implementation :> | 18:47 |
| llnz | no documentation of combat implementation, as it is totally up to the ruleset | 18:48 |
| Epyon | afair I understand that 1) turn-end 2) combat on server 3) turn-begin 4) message with combat report? | 18:49 |
| llnz | yes | 18:52 |
| llnz | bbs, lunch | 19:01 |
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| Epyon | 'm retirin' for the day, see ya tommorow | 19:05 |
| Patrick` | so yeah | 19:39 |
| Patrick` | anyone tim-shaped around? | 19:39 |
| llnz | hehe | 19:53 |
| * llnz is back | 19:53 | |
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| Patrick` | dinnae suppose you could comment on python network unit testing | 20:01 |
| Patrick` | ? | 20:01 |
| llnz | not really, sorry | 20:06 |
| Patrick` | no worries | 20:08 |
| Patrick` | I just looked over my calendar and I thought the student deadline was early next week, but it's later than that | 20:08 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | friday | 20:09 |
| Patrick` | so I still have a decent amount - including drafts | 20:09 |
| llnz | yes | 20:09 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | Ok, so there is just one proposal yet? thats poor .. time to start a slow painful journey towards mine. Its about time. | 20:10 |
| gimpster | last year the deadline was extended also | 20:19 |
| gimpster | could happen again this year | 20:19 |
| gimpster | but i wouldnt bet on it.. | 20:19 |
| Patrick` | it was during the extension in 2007 that my mate convinced me to start thinking about soc | 20:20 |
| Patrick` | so it's an improvement | 20:20 |
| llnz | the earlier it's in either the soc webapp or our wiki, the more feedback you will receive | 20:21 |
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| gimpster | Im having trouble building libtpproto , are there any special dependancies I need? | 20:23 |
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| gimpster | When trying to build I get errors all over buffer.cpp, any ideas? | 20:28 |
| llnz | gimpster: odd | 20:32 |
| llnz | which version of libtpproto-cpp? | 20:32 |
| gimpster | I downloaded 0.1.1, out of date? | 20:33 |
| llnz | also, you could paste the errors into a pastebin for me to look at | 20:33 |
| gimpster | Sure, one moment | 20:33 |
| ezod | tansell-laptop: ping? | 20:35 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, pong | 20:35 |
| gimpster | eep, this is way old. i'll get back to you when I download the new version llnz :P | 20:36 |
| llnz | gimpster: ok | 20:36 |
| llnz | yeah | 20:36 |
| ezod | hey, i got stuck on a bit of the py2exe thing for daneel-ai, could probably figure it out but it's the busy end of the week so i haven't had time | 20:36 |
| ezod | thinking you might know | 20:36 |
| llnz | it appears that SF doesn't have the lastest version (which is slightly incomplete but working) | 20:36 |
| gimpster | ill grab the version off of git | 20:38 |
| llnz | gimpster: 0.1.9 is new enough | 20:38 |
| llnz | in fact that currently is the latest git version too | 20:38 |
| ezod | it has libtp{client,proto}-py as submodules like tpclient-pywx | 20:39 |
| Patrick` | tansell-laptop: just a quick opinion if I may | 20:40 |
| Patrick` | (to ask for one, that is) | 20:40 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, yeah py2exe doesn't like that | 20:41 |
| tansell-laptop | you need to copy everything into a single tp directory | 20:41 |
| Patrick` | it's been suggested that out of the two options of "porting to twisted" and "writing unit testing for the existing python network code" the tests would be more useful | 20:41 |
| tansell-laptop | see the tpclient-pywx setup.py | 20:41 |
| ezod | tansell-laptop: yeah i tried basically exactly what you do in tpclient-pywx, no luck either | 20:41 |
| tansell-laptop | Patrick`, you could actually do the two together | 20:41 |
| ezod | it builds the exe, but doesn't (apparently) build in the deps | 20:41 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, oh? | 20:41 |
| tansell-laptop | did you tell it to build in the tp directory? | 20:41 |
| Patrick` | I figure that twisted would obsolete all the low-level tests (obviously) | 20:42 |
| Patrick` | and I can't decide which one to actually do a bit of work on just now | 20:42 |
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| ezod | tansell-laptop: how would i do that? | 20:42 |
| Patrick` | networking and testing's about the only two bits of experience I have :) | 20:42 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, modules section | 20:42 |
| tansell-laptop | Patrick`, which low level tests? | 20:42 |
| ezod | tansell-laptop: i think i do that the same as the tpclient-pywx setup.py does, although it's now been more than a day, maybe i just need to look at it again | 20:43 |
| Patrick` | well, things like making sure that all the stuff twisted handles works | 20:43 |
| tansell-laptop | Patrick`, things like the data serialiser is going to continue to need tests | 20:43 |
| Patrick` | like reassembling fragmented frames | 20:43 |
| Patrick` | s/frames/packets | 20:43 |
| tansell-laptop | Patrick`, twisted isn't going to magically support reassembling tp frames | 20:43 |
| Patrick` | but yeah | 20:43 |
| tansell-laptop | you'll have to write that code | 20:43 |
| tansell-laptop | and hence have to test it | 20:43 |
| Patrick` | yeah, ok | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | that's actually a fair point | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | ok, aha! | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | write tests first | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | then that'll help port it to twisted without breaking it | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | since, python networking == how the main client works | 20:44 |
| Patrick` | it's important to get it Totally Right | 20:45 |
| Patrick` | you mentioned 2 prior attempts, of which 1 is shipped as example code | 20:46 |
| Patrick` | right, I'll have time on saturday to go back into it with what you said | 20:49 |
| Patrick` | --> sleep | 20:50 |
| skiffcz-gsoc | Patrick`: good night | 20:52 |
| ezod | tansell-laptop: http://pastebin.ca/1373557 | 20:52 |
| tpb | Title: general pastebin - daneel-ai setup.py - post number 1373557 (at pastebin.ca) | 20:52 |
| ezod | that's the latest attempt | 20:53 |
| tansell-laptop | btw - porting the stuff to twisted is only for the server | 20:53 |
| tansell-laptop | not for the client | 20:53 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, that looks like it should work | 20:53 |
| ezod | note i added the "console" bit to setup so that it would actually build an exe - not sure what that means for the rest of it... | 20:54 |
| tansell-laptop | what happens? | 20:54 |
| ezod | tansell-laptop: could it have something to do with setuptools vs. distutils | 20:54 |
| ezod | ? | 20:54 |
| tansell-laptop | you should be able to drop in setuptools without problem | 20:54 |
| ezod | refer to comment at top of file ;) | 20:54 |
| tansell-laptop | (just change the import) | 20:54 |
| ezod | ok | 20:54 |
| tansell-laptop | oh | 20:55 |
| tansell-laptop | yeah it breaks it under Linux | 20:55 |
| ezod | :( | 20:55 |
| tansell-laptop | ezod, I can't really test until I get home tonight | 20:55 |
| tansell-laptop | whats the actual error? | 20:55 |
| ezod | so what happens as it stands is, it builds the daneel-ai.exe, but when i try to run it, it complains it can't find libtpproto-py (i.e. requirements.py does, i guess) | 20:56 |
| ezod | which of course implies that libtpclient is not there either | 20:56 |
| ezod | the last 2 lines are "The following requirements were not found: libtpproto-py" (or close enough, windows pc is at other end of apartment) | 20:57 |
| tansell-laptop | hrm | 20:58 |
| ezod | i could see if setuptools makes it work | 20:58 |
| tansell-laptop | worth giving a try | 20:58 |
| tansell-laptop | you could extract the library.zip file and see if tp stuff is in it | 20:59 |
| ezod | yeah hadn't thought of that, i just assumed it wouldn't be | 21:00 |
| ezod | like i said, very limited time to investigate thus far | 21:00 |
| ezod | so it's probably not that big of a deal | 21:00 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, couple of things | 21:01 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, tpclient-pywx keeps a connection open all the time | 21:02 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, there is no game currently which has fog of war, but it's 100% possible with tp03 | 21:02 |
| tote | tansell-laptop: okey, which means that a universe needs to be downloaded for every user of the web client and a cache of some sort must be implementet to reduce the network traffic | 21:04 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, correct | 21:04 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, libtpclient-py has a inbuilt cache so it doesn't download the whole universe earch connection | 21:05 |
| tansell-laptop | but even checking the "freshness" of the cache is an expensive operation | 21:05 |
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| tote | but that has to be done? if a server allows both web clients and non web clients | 21:06 |
| tote | there is no way to know what another client did except to ask the server about it | 21:06 |
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| tansell-laptop | tote, yes | 21:08 |
| tansell-laptop | the client makes an assumption that only one user is conencted to an account at one time | 21:09 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, btw tpserver-py supports virtual hosting | 21:10 |
| tansell-laptop | tote, so you can have multiple games on a single server | 21:10 |
| tote | shouldn't all servers support that? i got that feeling from the game input field in tpclient-pywx | 21:11 |
| tansell-laptop | nope | 21:12 |
| tansell-laptop | tpserver-cpp doesn't | 21:12 |
| tote | ok | 21:13 |
| llnz | well | 21:13 |
| llnz | while it doesn't actually, it acts though it could | 21:14 |
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| tote | does it matter if i submit my application directly using the gsoc system, or do you want to read it before? | 21:19 |
| ezod | tote: the gsoc system lets us review it and lets you make changes | 21:21 |
| tote | ok great | 21:21 |
| ezod | i.e. the first draft won't be set in stone or anything | 21:21 |
| Vadtec | evening all | 21:32 |
| Vadtec | llnz: have you had a chance to look at my proposal on the wiki? | 21:33 |
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| llnz | Vadtec: i had a quick read earlier | 22:05 |
| Vadtec | llnz: ok, just wanted to make sure you hadnt forgotten | 22:06 |
| tote | first draft submitted :) | 22:14 |
| llnz | tote: cool | 22:15 |
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| Greywhind | mithro: ping? | 22:52 |
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| llnz | bbl | 23:05 |
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| tansell_laptop | Greywhind, pong | 23:06 |
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| Greywhind | tansell_laptop: still there? | 23:18 |
| tansell_laptop | Greywhind, sure | 23:18 |
| Greywhind | want to talk about GSOC for a bit? | 23:18 |
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| tansell_laptop | Greywhind, sure | 23:19 |
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| ezod | mithro: is persistence modules for tpserver-cpp something we'd like to see a gsoc proposal for? | 23:54 |
| ezod | tansell_laptop: ^ | 23:54 |
| mithro | ezod: it's a low priority in my eyes | 23:57 |
| mithro | and not quite a full GSoC project | 23:57 |
| mithro | but if we got a good application for it | 23:57 |
| mithro | and llnz is supportive of it | 23:58 |
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