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| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o tpb | 00:00 | |
| daxxar | cygwin or the docs? ;) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| mithro | your using tpserver-cpp with cygwin | 00:01 |
| daxxar | I hope not the former | 00:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | I know, and that made me cry :P | 00:01 |
| mithro | Epyon|AFK: why? you shouldn't have even noticed | 00:01 |
| daxxar | If one doesn't want to use the MS software when compiling for windows, I'd personally prefer people to use mingw32. ;) | 00:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | How couldn't I've noticed with all those dlls :P | 00:01 |
| daxxar | You can even (in theory) crosscompile from linux. ;) | 00:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar so do I :] | 00:02 |
| mithro | daxxar: but that doesn't give you unix like sockets and such :P | 00:02 |
| mithro | nash: if cherez comes back when I'm not here - tell him comments on his blog are borked | 00:03 |
| nash | mithro: Shall do - Ihope | 00:03 |
| daxxar | mithro: true enough, but atleast for the sockets part; is porting them all that hard? i thought it mainly relied on calling the winsock init code before using bsd socket functions? | 00:03 |
| mithro | daxxar: and you can't do it on files | 00:03 |
| mithro | and other stuff | 00:03 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, you're a SOC applicant? | 00:03 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: indeed | 00:05 |
| daxxar | Are you too? | 00:05 |
| Epyon|AFK | yup ;] | 00:06 |
| Epyon|AFK | What field? | 00:06 |
| daxxar | 3d client in c++ =) | 00:06 |
| daxxar | I considered applying for some server work (ruleset or protocol compliance testing, perhaps?) on the c++ server, but I doubt I'll get the time :) | 00:07 |
| daxxar | (to apply) | 00:07 |
| daxxar | And what's yours? | 00:07 |
| nash | daxxar: Apply. Trust me you are helping yourself | 00:07 |
| nash | More applications == more positions == more likely you'll get one ;-) | 00:07 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, undecided yet, I'm getting fammiliar with the project :/ | 00:08 |
| daxxar | Yes, but I want to a) apply to something I want, b) do a proper proposal, so I need to spend some time, and i only have like .. 4 days? | 00:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, my problem is that my skills are completely unfocused :P | 00:08 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: jack of all trades? ;) | 00:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | Epyon|AFK, somethin' like that ;] | 00:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar* | 00:08 |
| daxxar | .. and slightly schizophrenic, :o | 00:09 |
| Epyon|AFK | *giggles* | 00:09 |
| daxxar | That probably means you're a quick learner, so where's the problem? ;-) | 00:09 |
| Epyon|AFK | My last job was running karaoke in a pub :P | 00:09 |
| daxxar | My last job was tech support :S | 00:10 |
| Epyon|AFK | The funny thing was, that despite that I was a CS student, they hired someone else to do the technical stuff. I was just gathering people, doing announcements, and singing if noone wanted to :p | 00:10 |
| daxxar | mithro: I was planning on looking more closely at the proto-lib and its docs, as JPL suggested in his comment on my app :) | 00:11 |
| Epyon|AFK | At least I was getting paid for something I consider "fun" :P | 00:11 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: haha, cute. :p | 00:11 |
| daxxar | Where're you from? | 00:11 |
| Epyon|AFK | Wroc�aw, Poland | 00:11 |
| Epyon|AFK | But I'm a game designer/programmer by heart, and TP was one of the two projects related to making games, so that's why I want to apply here... | 00:12 |
| daxxar | This and BZF? ;) | 00:12 |
| Epyon|AFK | Yeah. | 00:12 |
| daxxar | Is it really spelled using a cubed-character? | 00:13 |
| mithro | daxxar: i would definately recommend doing a second application - we are going have fun figureing out which clients to select from the list | 00:13 |
| mithro | s/fun/"fun"/ | 00:13 |
| daxxar | I.e. Wro(c*c*c)aw? | 00:13 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, no that one should be a cross between "l" and "/" | 00:13 |
| daxxar | mithro: Yeah, I guess I shouldn't really depend on me being top of the herd on all those applications. :-) | 00:13 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: Oh. You should use utf-8, I bet it's iso-8859-* borking it, ;-) | 00:14 |
| daxxar | I think my client assumes it's latin1 (-1 or -9 or something) if you're not utf8-ing them. | 00:14 |
| Epyon|AFK | It is, but I rarely use IRC except for my game's quakenet channel for which I have miranda set up. | 00:14 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: There are more games projects then that | 00:15 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash OGRE and CrystalSpace? | 00:15 |
| nash | Yes | 00:15 |
| nash | And I thought another too... | 00:15 |
| Epyon|AFK | Yeah, but those are pure engines. | 00:15 |
| Epyon|AFK | And pure graphical engines. | 00:15 |
| nash | Nope.. | 00:16 |
| nash | You are right | 00:16 |
| Epyon|AFK | I would stand no chance without any formal graphics programming experience. | 00:16 |
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| nash | pjdeets: Hi! | 00:22 |
| nash | You are here for SoC I guess? | 00:22 |
| pjdeets | Yes, I would like to submit one or two applications for SoC in thousand parsec. | 00:23 |
| nash | Cool | 00:23 |
| nash | Two is good ;-) | 00:23 |
| pjdeets | I haven't prepared much yet though and the deadline is approaching | 00:23 |
| nash | That's okay. It is only a week for everyone... so it's not far behind | 00:24 |
| pjdeets | I think I might apply for doing a web client and writing a "Ruleset" development Environment | 00:25 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, can you explain to me, what do rulesets are made in? | 00:27 |
| nash | Cool | 00:28 |
| nash | pjdeets: Start writing an app, you'll get comments from the mentors, and can update | 00:28 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: ? | 00:29 |
| nash | Not quite sure I follow your questions | 00:29 |
| mithro | bblr | 00:29 |
| mithro | pjdeets: you seem good a missing me :P | 00:29 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, what is a ruleset actually ;] | 00:29 |
| nash | right... TP is essentially just a protocol for allowing clients to communicate with a server | 00:30 |
| nash | A server implements a ruleset.. So a game basically | 00:30 |
| nash | The idea is that servers can just plug in a ruleset, and the protocol allows a client to discover all it needs to play the game | 00:30 |
| Epyon|AFK | So the rulesets are written in plain C++ then? | 00:31 |
| Epyon|AFK | (sorry if these questions seem naive :P) | 00:31 |
| nash | For the C++ server .. yes | 00:32 |
| daxxar | mithro: Btw, you wrote 'equip each task with an estimated timeline' - I thought I did? | 00:32 |
| daxxar | mithro: I didn't write anything more specific than like 'x weeks', no dates etc. | 00:32 |
| jotham | man i got given a problem at work i don't know how to solve | 00:32 |
| jotham | which is pretty rare and has made me nervous :p | 00:32 |
| daxxar | mithro: oh, and one more; "What are you going to do with about media?" - what exactly do you mean? How am I going to get it - or some technical spec about it? | 00:33 |
| jotham | i basically have to recreate finance.google.com's flash graph thing | 00:33 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, probably a question on how you're going to get the needed graphics, models etc | 00:34 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: That's what I thought too. =) | 00:34 |
| Epyon|AFK | That's why I think of applying for the 3D C++ client thingy ;] | 00:35 |
| daxxar | To slaughter me by supplying superior inhouse graphics? :( | 00:35 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: In theory the game can be written in anything that can be loaded by the server as a module (opened using libdl on unix) | 00:35 |
| Epyon|AFK | Nah, I know I can do stub graphics myself. Not of artwork quality, but of acceptable one. | 00:35 |
| Epyon|AFK | The same with eventual music and sound effects. | 00:35 |
| Epyon|AFK | (although I think my mod-mixes would annoy the hell out of people xD) | 00:36 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, but don't worry, I have no formal graphics programming experience :P | 00:36 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, just a game I'm writing at home, but it's not published yet, beta-stage, and written in that wierdo language called FreePascal :P | 00:37 |
| daxxar | Define formal? :-) | 00:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | No done projects, neither opensource, nor commercial, so I probably wont apply for that one :( | 00:38 |
| Epyon|AFK | done=commited to | 00:38 |
| daxxar | mithro: the forum for announcements & news has a typo in the title, "annoucements and news". | 00:38 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: I think they're more interested in what you're capable of than what you've already done. What you've already done is only a loose measuring-stick for what you're capable of. ;-) | 00:39 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: Of course, experience will help you out in e.g. avoiding common pitfalls, so it's helpful. :-) | 00:39 |
| Epyon|AFK | Epyon|AFK: how can I proove of what I'm capable of without doing anything :P | 00:39 |
| Epyon|AFK | Damn, shizophrenia again. | 00:40 |
| daxxar | You can't prove it, but you can convince them. Doing thorough research, having practical implementation details and a convincing "speech" about the proposal is sure to win over some votes. ;) | 00:40 |
| nash | It is also meant to be a learning experience... The important thing is that you can do a good attempt, and get involved in open source | 00:41 |
| daxxar | But hey, I shouldn't try to convince you. Less competition for me. | 00:41 |
| * daxxar grins ;-) | 00:41 | |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, anyway, the only "formal" experience I have is in... text mode games. So it would look pretty silly to attend to a 3D client :P | 00:41 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Follow the ruleset idea then? | 00:42 |
| Epyon|AFK | Although my Master Thesis is 100% about 3D programming. | 00:42 |
| daxxar | Well, you are allowed to make your own proposals from scratch. What about making a more usable text-based / ncurses-based client? ;-) | 00:42 |
| daxxar | Or, of course, the ruleset idea. | 00:42 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, yeah, all is clear now. | 00:42 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Excellent... | 00:42 |
| Epyon|AFK | Thanks :) | 00:42 |
| * nash wonders where he actually got that from... it wasn't from my explanation ;-) | 00:42 | |
| Epyon|AFK | That actually made me think about the ruleset thing now. Too bad I'm not truly fammiliar with the proposed games. | 00:43 |
| Epyon|AFK | I was also thinking about proposing the creation of a SDL/OpenGL based graphical client, but seems that one's taken :> | 00:44 |
| dmpayton | Mornin...Kinda... | 00:44 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Another new ruleset if you have an idea for a game | 00:45 |
| nash | hey dmpayton | 00:45 |
| Epyon|AFK | It's 1:51 here xD | 00:45 |
| dmpayton | it's almost 6pm here... but I felt like crap when I first woke up, so I ended up sleeping the day away. Still feel like crap, heh. | 00:45 |
| *** pjdeets has quit IRC | 00:45 | |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, make a 7DRS competition :P | 00:48 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Could be fune | 00:48 |
| Epyon|AFK | People get very creative in such small amounts of time. | 00:48 |
| Epyon|AFK | And then you can take the best one, and develope it further :> | 00:49 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: May be something to think about once SoC is done | 00:49 |
| Epyon|AFK | But such a competition would benefit from a better client. | 00:53 |
| daxxar | hm. is it spelled 'graphicians'? | 00:54 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: 7DRS? | 00:55 |
| dmpayton | nash: Am I the only one that has applied for a web client? | 00:55 |
| daxxar | Dosen't seem to be a word. | 00:56 |
| daxxar | Doesn't* | 00:56 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar 7 Day Rule Set competition :P | 00:57 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, write a ruleset in 7 days ;] | 00:57 |
| nash | dmpayton: I'll check | 00:57 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, a better word is artists :P | 00:57 |
| nash | So far... yes | 00:58 |
| nash | But I know someone else was interested | 00:58 |
| Epyon|AFK | afair there was one guy interested. | 00:58 |
| nash | And it's a good idea to apply for something else... | 00:58 |
| jotham | i was going to do some new graphics for the thing i'm working on, maybe i can export them as a usable format for other people to use | 01:00 |
| nash | The project will be happy to take some ;-) | 01:00 |
| Epyon|AFK | I could do some graphics unrelated to the SoC if I would know what you need. | 01:00 |
| jotham | dancing girls | 01:01 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Lots ;-) | 01:01 |
| nash | Ships I think are the big one at the moment | 01:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | Sorry, I don't do biological stuff atm :P | 01:02 |
| * nash mumbles something about a system to procedurally generate them... | 01:02 | |
| Epyon|AFK | Anyway, biological stuff takes a lot more time. | 01:02 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash: you mean dancing girls? :> | 01:02 |
| nash | That too | 01:02 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Ships...ships...ships... | 01:03 |
| Epyon|AFK | procedural pron, lol, I guess I could make a fortune on that one :> | 01:03 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: yeah, I ended up using artist. | 01:03 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, capital starships, starships, fighters? | 01:03 |
| daxxar | To whoever it concerns: the mailinglist-url on your gsoc page links to http://localhost. Not suprisingly, your mailman setup is not on my machine :( | 01:03 |
| tpb | Title: Index of / (at localhost.) | 01:03 |
| daxxar | http://localhost/omg-tpb-is-a-cute-bot | 01:04 |
| daxxar | That'll be a fun one when someone looks into the access logs! | 01:04 |
| * daxxar coughs | 01:04 | |
| Epyon|AFK | hmm http://localhost./../ | 01:04 |
| jotham | daxxar: what is 'artist'? | 01:05 |
| * Epyon|AFK hugs tpb and gives him a security badge :> | 01:05 | |
| daxxar | I hardly think it works. Probably an apache - do you think apache would let you access documents outside the "document root"? ;-) | 01:05 |
| daxxar | jotham: an artist is a person who creates art? :-) | 01:05 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, I just wanted to see if he reacts :> | 01:05 |
| jotham | daxxar: oh you said 'artist' not 'an artist' - thought maybe it was some procedural graphics library i was unaware of :p | 01:06 |
| Epyon|AFK | lolz | 01:06 |
| nash | daxxar: That's for mithro | 01:06 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: I believe the answer to your question is 'yes' | 01:06 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Were you talking about the procedural generation stuff yesterday? | 01:07 |
| nash | Because I'd LOVE to see that in the SoC submissions | 01:07 |
| nash | bb | 01:07 |
| nash | s | 01:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | hmm, one easy way to do that without getting bogged down in serious algorithms is making ships "modular" and make their models generated from the modules they were built from. | 01:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | Also recreating the textures based on "affiliation" etc. | 01:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | I think I could do that easily, including the creation of all the "modules" | 01:08 |
| Epyon|AFK | That could produce a lot of nice models for the 3D version. | 01:09 |
| Epyon|AFK | But the 3D engine would need to be ready for that. | 01:10 |
| Epyon|AFK | An L-System could be used to create the hull, and the "slots" for the modules, the detail would be added by the modules themselves and the texture. | 01:11 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Works for me | 01:11 |
| Epyon|AFK | Simple. Crazy. Never-done-before. I like it :P | 01:11 |
| nash | Submit it... Thats the foundations of a good application | 01:12 |
| Epyon|AFK | I think I'll think it over the night. | 01:12 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: It doesn't really require a 3d engine? Can't you just either agree on (or define) a format for models and textures, which then will be loaded by whatever client is eventually created? | 01:12 |
| jotham | i liked Spaceward Ho!'s approach to ships | 01:12 |
| Epyon|AFK | The nice thing is that the model could be described by just the random seed. | 01:12 |
| daxxar | And, assuming one of the (many?) 3d client proposals are accepted, you could work together with whoever is responsible for it. | 01:13 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, how do you load 3d models into a 2d client? :P | 01:13 |
| jotham | imo modular ship design would sacrifice a lot of asthetic value, but i think it's an interesting idea | 01:13 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, I don't think tp wants a built in renederer :P | 01:13 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: I'm sorry, I meant "an already defined and created 3d engine" | 01:13 |
| daxxar | And in any case, for the 2d clients, you could just have a tool that supports displaying and rendering to file, creating sprites / 2d images for clients, web-applications, etcetera. | 01:14 |
| nash | It's a nice start however - modulr is better then nothing | 01:14 |
| jotham | yes | 01:14 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, because the system would generate models on-the-fly -- that would mean you wouldn't have prepared lightmaps etc. | 01:14 |
| daxxar | Hm, oh, sorry, I guess I misunderstood you. :-) | 01:15 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, the greatest advantage is that the system would provide a lot of varied starships without the need of making a model for each of them. | 01:15 |
| Epyon|AFK | Procedural content is the shield of OS and small-time projects :> | 01:16 |
| daxxar | Meep, I'm soon over the 7,5k character mark. :| | 01:16 |
| daxxar | Yeah, have you tried .kkrieger (iirc)? | 01:16 |
| Epyon|AFK | Yeah, kicked ass. | 01:16 |
| daxxar | Procedural content is great of 64kb demos and such :) | 01:17 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Agreed | 01:17 |
| Epyon|AFK | But Infinity kicks even more (although they have normal space ships, the planets are breathtakin') | 01:17 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, it could be severly tied to the starship design system. | 01:18 |
| daxxar | Perhaps I should just rip out some of the useless information about me, and put in technobabble instead. | 01:18 |
| daxxar | Or put the application on a webiste. | 01:18 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Maybe, maybe not. A component based one would be | 01:18 |
| Epyon|AFK | I think that 7,5k limit is for shielding developers, and not google's bandwidth :P | 01:18 |
| nash | But if you generalised it | 01:18 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: I kept myself well under it, until those demanding mentors required more information. ;p | 01:19 |
| nash | So a number of hull tyoes, # weapon mounts, | 01:19 |
| nash | daxxar: Those mentors are bastards aren't they | 01:19 |
| daxxar | nash: Nah, you're so fluffy and cuddly. | 01:20 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: And a few other paramaters too | 01:20 |
| Epyon|AFK | yeah, their in our fridgez eating our foodz :P | 01:20 |
| daxxar | Hey, if they want to read me go on and on and on for many thousand characters, be my guest. :p | 01:20 |
| nash | daxxar: You must not have read my 'risks' posts ;-) | 01:20 |
| daxxar | nash: hm? | 01:21 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, the nice idea would be to tie the parameters of the geneartor to specific races. | 01:21 |
| daxxar | Please, link me. :) | 01:21 |
| nash | It was pasted as a comment into quite a few of the applications | 01:21 |
| nash | However after a few tim added it to his general comments thing so I didn't | 01:21 |
| daxxar | Oh, yeah. I got it from tim. | 01:22 |
| daxxar | I haven't even started on that one, and I'm at 7474 =p | 01:22 |
| Epyon|AFK | Example (Human = curvature 0%, length =140%, width 40%, Green Alien Race = curvature 100%, length 100%, width 100%, Hitech alien race - curv 50%, length 70%, width 120%) -- oversimplified, but if you think about those values, you might start seeing the ships :P | 01:22 |
| Epyon|AFK | First one would give boxy style ships, second one disc like UFOs, and the third one wide slender crescents... | 01:24 |
| daxxar | Are we humans going to be blocky? :( | 01:24 |
| daxxar | I resent the statement that we will be designing spaceships as horribly as most of the western civilization designs houses. :| | 01:25 |
| Epyon|AFK | daxxar, that would depend on the ruleset designer. He could use either a preprepared set of models, a preprepare set of generator data, or make up his own data for the generator, or let the random generator do the choices for each race in the game. | 01:25 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Or it could be in teh race description. | 01:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | The last one would work well with a random alien species generator :) | 01:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, yup. | 01:26 |
| nash | So it should be a combination of a) Race b) Player & c) ruleset | 01:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | Heh, If I would apply for doing that I would probably make a lot of work before the schedule, for my Master Thesis thema is "Procedural Content in Realtime Applications" | 01:27 |
| Epyon|AFK | "Realtime Applications" is a euphemism for computer games :P | 01:27 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Why can't you apply? | 01:28 |
| Epyon|AFK | I probably will, to raise the application count :P | 01:28 |
| *** cherez has joined #tp | 01:29 | |
| daxxar | And knock the rest of us off the field. :S | 01:29 |
| Epyon|AFK | cherez, mithro said that you have broken comments on the blog ;P | 01:29 |
| cherez | I do? | 01:29 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Hey it would be a good proposal to do | 01:29 |
| Epyon|AFK | Now I'm beginning to see it :) | 01:29 |
| daxxar | I can hardly compete against a task that will be the basis for a master thesis, so my liferaft will be that the application count is big enough to warrant multiple acceptances. ;-P | 01:30 |
| cherez | what's going on here? | 01:30 |
| Epyon|AFK | Although it will make no sense if either I will also apply t do the 3D client or you will take someone to do a 3D client too. | 01:30 |
| nash | daxxar: I assume we'll get multiple places | 01:30 |
| * nash notes 3D client is _very_ popular | 01:30 | |
| * dmpayton is glad that the web client isn't :) | 01:31 | |
| nash | Nope | 01:31 |
| * Epyon|AFK slaps daxxar -- I would rather work with someone to do the dirty work for me -- and someone who'd understand it :P | 01:31 | |
| daxxar | I heard of a single application and a cry for c++-based projects when I started mine, so that's why I'm a part of the bandwagon. | 01:31 |
| nash | Not yet anyway | 01:31 |
| daxxar | Epyon|AFK: 'the dirty work'? | 01:31 |
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| daxxar | Perhaps I'll submit a web-client application too, ;-) | 01:32 |
| nash | hey iFeghali | 01:32 |
| dmpayton | nash: This is true. I bet you get a whole slew of people going "i know php, i would like to build a web client" | 01:32 |
| daxxar | nash: which of your ideas have gotten the least applications thus far? | 01:32 |
| daxxar | dmpayton: are you mocking php? :o | 01:32 |
| iFeghali | hi all | 01:32 |
| iFeghali | im trying to play TP for the first time | 01:32 |
| daxxar | Hi iFeghali :) | 01:32 |
| Epyon|AFK | dmpayton, PHP is not the problem -- knowing AJAX well is ;] | 01:33 |
| dmpayton | daxxar: never! :P | 01:33 |
| iFeghali | but the default server gives me "connection refused" | 01:33 |
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| Epyon|AFK | iFeghali welcme to the SoC field :P | 01:33 |
| daxxar | dmpayton: though I do agree, there have been a bit of miseducation in the php environment. | 01:33 |
| nash | iFeghali: Hmm... | 01:33 |
| Epyon|AFK | iFeghali, you need to run two clients and a server :P | 01:33 |
| nash | Which client are you using? | 01:33 |
| dmpayton | daxxar: PHP is actually the language that taught me to program... but I've been growing less fond of it over the past year or so. | 01:33 |
| nash | And one client is fine for demos | 01:33 |
| nash | daxxar: Diplomacy is my suggestion that has got the least | 01:34 |
| dmpayton | Epyon|AFK: Technically, it's knowing JavaScript that matters. ;) | 01:34 |
| nash | I'm about to add another | 01:34 |
| iFeghali | nash: pywx for mac | 01:34 |
| Epyon|AFK | dmpayton, and IE, don't forget that 80% work will be getting that *&^#(@^# browser to run that thing :> | 01:35 |
| iFeghali | Epyon|AFK: well i just want to play on any server... i dont wanna setup a server myself | 01:35 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, what are you going to add? | 01:35 |
| nash | iFeghali: Try the server at 60.229.251.165 | 01:35 |
| nash | It is mine 5 minute turns | 01:35 |
| iFeghali | ok thx | 01:36 |
| nash | Trade based game - | 01:36 |
| dmpayton | Epyon|AFK: oh trust me, I know. I deal with that damn browser on a daily basiss at work (I work for a software/web development company). IE needs to be shot. | 01:36 |
| nash | LOL | 01:36 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: if you are on the mailing list you wil see it soon | 01:36 |
| nash | iFeghali: You just connected? | 01:36 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: You too? | 01:37 |
| * nash wonders if he should add his AI too ;-) | 01:37 | |
| pjdeets | I once wrote a forum in PHP for a school project. I made the mistake of not testing in IE until I was done. Basically I had to tell my prof to download Firefox or Opera because it didn't work. | 01:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | heh :> | 01:37 |
| dmpayton | Huh... My app says it was updated at 6:11 (almost 13 hours ago -- I was sleeping), but the last comment is from nash and I can't change the detailed version. | 01:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, I'm not yet -- I keep away from mailing lists -- newsgroups take away my life anyway :P | 01:38 |
| iFeghali | nash: its still connecting | 01:38 |
| nash | hmm... | 01:38 |
| nash | weird | 01:38 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: has connected | 01:39 |
| nash | No activity | 01:39 |
| nash | iFeghali: Maybe try again | 01:39 |
| nash | Which version are you using? | 01:39 |
| nash | And you should be able to just connect without a new account - just change the username | 01:39 |
| Epyon|AFK | no activity becasue I'm reading here :P | 01:39 |
| daxxar | nash: Have you posted it? | 01:40 |
| * daxxar signs up for the mlo | 01:40 | |
| daxxar | ml* | 01:40 |
| nash | daxxar: Not yet | 01:40 |
| pjdeets | I am considering making a ruleset development environment for SoC. Where can I find documentation on how to make a game using TP? I see the docs for TPCL, but where can I see how to make a game with it? | 01:40 |
| cherez | as present, there's not much you can do to make a game in TP | 01:40 |
| daxxar | The -devel or -users ml, nash? | 01:41 |
| cherez | Minisec is pretty harcoded from what I've seen of the servers | 01:41 |
| nash | -users | 01:41 |
| nash | General rp | 01:41 |
| pjdeets | Ok, thanks I'll take a look at the server code. | 01:41 |
| nash | pjdeets: They are currently all binary modules | 01:41 |
| iFeghali | nash: operation timed out | 01:41 |
| daxxar | Err, there's no -users, but the normal ml. my bad. :-) | 01:41 |
| nash | Look in hte modules directory | 01:41 |
| nash | iFeghali: Try it again - restart the client first however | 01:42 |
| nash | And see if you can ping the address? | 01:42 |
| Epyon|AFK | The ml is mirrored at the forum? | 01:42 |
| iFeghali | cool im in | 01:43 |
| nash | forum -> ML - not sure about the other way | 01:44 |
| nash | iFeghali: I see | 01:44 |
| Epyon|AFK | so please tell us about the new one :> | 01:45 |
| Epyon|AFK | How can I choose a reasonable destination for the fleet without typing coords manualy? | 01:46 |
| iFeghali | ouch | 01:47 |
| nash | Click on the ... | 01:47 |
| nash | And then a star | 01:47 |
| iFeghali | i gone to a zoom level that i dont see anything | 01:47 |
| nash | (or a plent | 01:47 |
| iFeghali | and now i cant fix my view | 01:47 |
| nash | iFeghali: You can always restart - the state is on the server | 01:47 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash sounds good in theory -- but in practice it's hard to target anything with a black crosshair on a black starfield :P | 01:48 |
| mithro | nash: mailing lists and forums should be almost identical mirrors of each other | 01:48 |
| Epyon|AFK | (must be my windoze skin :|) | 01:48 |
| mithro | iFeghali: click the "Zoom to Fit" button | 01:48 |
| mithro | iFeghali: you can also try the manual which is a WIP | 01:49 |
| iFeghali | WIP ? | 01:49 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Talk to mithro | 01:49 |
| nash | Work in Progress | 01:49 |
| mithro | http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/documents/tpclient-pywx-manual.pdf | 01:49 |
| iFeghali | ah ok | 01:49 |
| Epyon|AFK | mithro -- I've got a black crosshair to choose planets :> | 01:49 |
| Epyon|AFK | mithro -- which is kind of... disturbing to use on a plain black starfield :P | 01:50 |
| iFeghali | yeh i really need to read the manual | 01:51 |
| iFeghali | i have no idea what i am supposed to do | 01:51 |
| cherez | mithro: I think I got the wx client fixed | 01:51 |
| cherez | now if I could get darcs to work I could actually get the latest version and make a patch | 01:52 |
| daxxar | Meh, I can't find any docs or code for the "love-needing" pyogre client. :|| | 01:52 |
| *** pjdeets has quit IRC | 01:52 | |
| daxxar | ah, darcs only, i guess. | 01:52 |
| nash | mithro: See my new idea? | 01:53 |
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| daxxar | mithro: You should probably link to the pyogre code from the gsoc page | 01:53 |
| nash | Slightly different focus... but still works with the TP system ;-) Well mostly | 01:53 |
| Epyon|AFK | Not yet on the forum :/ | 01:54 |
| nash | On the mailing list... | 01:54 |
| daxxar | Meh, my greylisting is taking care of blocking any mail I should've gotten. | 01:55 |
| * daxxar waits for the ml mailserver to retry sending the activation mails. :| | 01:55 | |
| nash | daxxar: Epyon|AFK: See pastes | 01:56 |
| nash | daxxar: Epyon|AFK: Get that? | 01:58 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, okay, I'll do two applications then. One for the ruleset and one for the content generation :) | 01:58 |
| daxxar | nash: yep | 01:58 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Cool | 01:58 |
| nash | Please do | 01:58 |
| nash | Anyway - I'm off to lunch | 01:59 |
| nash | talk to you all in an hour or so | 01:59 |
| Epyon|AFK | BTW, how to handle multiple submissions? Should I copy paste the general info? | 01:59 |
| nash | Feel free | 01:59 |
| daxxar | Enjoy yourself, I'll probably be asleep then. | 01:59 |
| daxxar | (But have submitted a new application) | 01:59 |
| nash | Each will be looked at seperately | 01:59 |
| nash | daxxar: Cool | 02:00 |
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| daxxar | err, not new. | 02:00 |
| nash | Shall comment after lunch more likely | 02:00 |
| daxxar | Sorry, updated. :) | 02:00 |
| nash | Okay | 02:00 |
| iFeghali | have anyone of you ever played the mac os version ? | 02:00 |
| iFeghali | there is no "zoom to fit" button here | 02:00 |
| iFeghali | as i see in the manual | 02:01 |
| nash | iFeghali: Bug mithro ;-) | 02:02 |
| nash | And check which version you have. | 02:02 |
| nash | mithro: I think iFeghali has problems ;-) | 02:02 |
| iFeghali | i dont know | 02:03 |
| iFeghali | about doesnt works | 02:03 |
| iFeghali | :P | 02:03 |
| iFeghali | nash: version 0.2.1 | 02:05 |
| iFeghali | well | 02:09 |
| iFeghali | bed time | 02:09 |
| iFeghali | night everybody | 02:09 |
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| CIA-17 | [email protected] * web/google-summer-of-code-2007.php : Fixed mailing list/forum links. | 02:16 |
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| cherez | libtpclient-py is not being cooperative... | 02:19 |
| *** DystopicFro has left #tp | 02:19 | |
| mithro | cherez: what do you mean? | 02:23 |
| daxxar | Oi! The character limit is a fraud! | 02:24 |
| daxxar | I just (unwittingly) submitted 8200 characters, and it accepted them. :S | 02:24 |
| daxxar | mithro, JLP, nash: Proposal updated.I | 02:25 |
| mithro | daxxar: cool | 02:25 |
| daxxar | I'll look at a second proposal sometime on friday, perhaps. =| | 02:25 |
| daxxar | And now - good night. :-) | 02:25 |
| cherez | pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: libtpclient-py | 02:26 |
| mithro | what are you doing? | 02:27 |
| cherez | python setup.py build | 02:27 |
| cherez | want me to pm a full traceback? | 02:29 |
| mithro | hrm... why are you doing a python setup.py build? | 02:35 |
| mithro | To set up everything for development run the "setup.sh" found in the scratchpad module after. | 02:35 |
| cherez | oh, that's a lot nicer | 02:38 |
| cherez | oh ,and you said commenting on the blog was broken? | 02:39 |
| Epyon|AFK | 2,7k for the abstract :/ | 02:41 |
| Epyon|AFK | ok, exactly 2500 chars, but no room for more :> | 02:43 |
| *** Lukstr|AFK is now known as Lukstr | 02:46 | |
| daxxar | I wrote the abstract first, realized it was too long, and moved a lot of the details to the 'detailed description' | 02:50 |
| daxxar | So now it's .. | 02:50 |
| Epyon|AFK | My abstract is more like a manifesto :P | 02:51 |
| daxxar | 849 /home/daxxar/coded/gsoc/proposals/thousandparsec/abstract.txt | 02:51 |
| daxxar | :o | 02:51 |
| Epyon|AFK | I can paste it to you if you want :P | 02:51 |
| daxxar | Nevermind that the thing is in ~/coded, btw, it's just that having my svn checkouts in ~/coded is a habit. should probably rename it to 'projects' or something. | 02:52 |
| daxxar | http://p.caboo.se - Go ahead. :-) | 02:52 |
| tpb | Title: New - Pastie (at p.caboo.se) | 02:52 |
| Epyon|AFK | I don't trust such services :> | 02:52 |
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| Epyon|AFK | on priv | 02:54 |
| daxxar | it has a 'private' checkbox. :p | 02:54 |
| dmpayton | mithro: I can edit the app now. Wonder what was going on... | 02:57 |
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| nash | dmpayton: You can edit once a mentor comments | 03:08 |
| * Epyon|AFK is writing... | 03:09 | |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, you nailed my decision with that new proposal. I can do the procedural stuff instead, but the other one formed my resolve :P | 03:10 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: ? | 03:11 |
| nash | So which one are you doing? | 03:12 |
| Epyon|AFK | I'm applying for both :) | 03:12 |
| nash | Cool | 03:13 |
| daxxar | Oh well, good night, for real. | 03:15 |
| daxxar | I failed, nash came back before I went to bed. I'm getting up in, uhm. 3 hours. | 03:16 |
| daxxar | Damn TP & GSoC & their unified fascinating content to keep me awake. :| | 03:16 |
| daxxar | ;-) | 03:16 |
| * daxxar waves and detaches from his client. | 03:16 | |
| daxxar | Btw, liked your proposal, Epyon|AFK :) | 03:16 |
| cherez | so long | 03:17 |
| daxxar | And you're blatantly not AFK. | 03:17 |
| Epyon|AFK | no? :P | 03:17 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: But you want to the trader one? | 03:20 |
| Epyon|AFK | Yep :> | 03:22 |
| Epyon|AFK | But now I'm writing the procedural proposal. | 03:22 |
| mithro | dmpayton: i think i know what caused the problem - we added private comments after our public comments - which locked it again | 03:23 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Thats what i was sorta thinkin... File a bug with google, perhaps? | 03:24 |
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| mithro | i have to admit I can't be that bothered atm :P | 03:25 |
| Epyon|AFK | 6300 chars and counting... | 03:30 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Cool | 03:30 |
| dmpayton | Apparently, google doesn't count spaces as characters... | 03:32 |
| dmpayton | mithro: Is there anything you'd like added to the abstract? | 03:32 |
| nash | dmpayton: You probably don't want to report that as a bug ;-) | 03:33 |
| Epyon|AFK | 7500 is the limit even after supplying the doc, right? | 03:51 |
| Epyon|AFK | So I should leave some place for additional edits? | 03:52 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash? | 03:52 |
| nash | Probably a good idea | 03:52 |
| nash | You can also post comments however | 03:52 |
| Epyon|AFK | Ok... finished. | 03:56 |
| Epyon|AFK | Proofreading, sending a friend, going to sleep and reading again, or posting now? | 03:56 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash? :) | 03:58 |
| nash | Do both | 03:58 |
| Epyon|AFK | both of four? :P | 04:00 |
| nash | I thought it was teh first 3 or the last one | 04:00 |
| Epyon|AFK | I won't be able to edit it once I post it. | 04:01 |
| nash | well profraed it, then post it. | 04:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | (we're talking about the procedural one, the second one will be written probably tommorow) | 04:01 |
| nash | You can edit once someone comments | 04:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | Kay. | 04:01 |
| nash | Cool | 04:01 |
| nash | IU'm more interested in teh procedural one myself | 04:02 |
| Epyon|AFK | I know :) | 04:02 |
| nash | Well I also bet more poeple will apply for teh second | 04:03 |
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| * Epyon|AFK pokes daxxar_ | 04:06 | |
| Epyon|AFK | weren't you supposed to sleep? :P | 04:06 |
| nash | looks like he is | 04:09 |
| Epyon|AFK | done, now posting... | 04:13 |
| nash | tell me when | 04:14 |
| Epyon|AFK | It's there :) | 04:15 |
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| Epyon|AFK | nash... how about merging both projects? | 04:24 |
| * nash wonders how for those two | 04:25 | |
| Epyon|AFK | Both would suffer on it, but they'd give TP something playable and good lookin' at the same time. | 04:25 |
| Epyon|AFK | Randomness ;). An Elite-like would also need to have a big degree of randomness :) | 04:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | That's what I'm basing my second proposal on :) | 04:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | Have you read my application? Isn't it any good? | 04:26 |
| Epyon|AFK | Is* | 04:26 |
| nash | Read a little - and yes. It's good so far. | 04:27 |
| nash | Link for you BTW is this years linux.conf.au games miniconf - which had a talk on procedural content | 04:28 |
| Epyon|AFK | Try the link I gave in the app :) | 04:28 |
| Epyon|AFK | The City thing. | 04:28 |
| Epyon|AFK | For me it was jawdroppin' | 04:28 |
| nash | nice | 04:33 |
| Epyon|AFK | The guy had two papers at SIGGRAPH on that topic, I luckily managed to get both. | 04:34 |
| Epyon|AFK | Duh! | 04:35 |
| Epyon|AFK | He published them both at the webpage now :P | 04:35 |
| nash | heh | 04:36 |
| nash | Good application. | 04:36 |
| nash | Comments coming soon | 04:36 |
| Epyon|AFK | Thank you :) | 04:36 |
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| mithro | hi DystopicFr1, you here for the SoC? | 05:11 |
| DystopicFr1 | just hopping around a bit, but yes, ya got me pegged there | 05:14 |
| nash | DystopicFr1: Any thing in particular you are interested in? | 05:23 |
| nash | mithro: See my new game idea? | 05:24 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: See the comments? | 05:28 |
| Epyon|AFK | Comments? | 05:30 |
| Epyon|AFK | Goodie ^^ | 05:30 |
| Epyon|AFK | "First off... risks: You say you aren't sure how much you will get done... what is the plan? What can go wrong? How will you minimise those risks?" I DID answer that :P | 05:30 |
| nash | Not really - you mention that things could go wrong with your initial approach, and you can change if necessary | 05:32 |
| nash | But is that it? | 05:32 |
| Epyon|AFK | I said what's the minimal "fallback" project. | 05:32 |
| Epyon|AFK | What can go wrong is easy -- the models may not look better than modular ones :) | 05:32 |
| nash | A non-technical one... | 05:33 |
| Epyon|AFK | I mean the gain of using them wont be enough gain for their quality. | 05:33 |
| nash | Any other risks? What outside work are you using? What about the L-system alg - what if it doesn;t look good for ships? | 05:34 |
| Epyon|AFK | Outside work? | 05:35 |
| nash | Any external libs etc? | 05:36 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: I am intentionally trying to be a bastard BTW ;-) | 05:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | The L-System alg is a general algorithm. It can be used to generate trees, bushes, buildings, cityscapes, building details, and I've seen at least one space station :). So I guess it's a catch all ^^ | 05:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, don't worry, I know :) | 05:37 |
| nash | okay. Feel free to dump these back in a comment BTW | 05:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | No external libs. It's just OR. | 05:37 |
| Epyon|AFK | Okay. | 05:38 |
| nash | OR? | 05:38 |
| Epyon|AFK | Uh, sorry, I've been in a wikipedia war recently, and some things sticked :P | 05:38 |
| Epyon|AFK | Original Research :P | 05:38 |
| nash | Right | 05:38 |
| nash | Ahh wikipedia... knowledge is a commodity | 05:39 |
| DystopicFr1 | nash: (long winded but still here) I've got to admit that I've been bouncing around a bit on that. I thought that the web-based client (java applet to deviate from what it looks like you all are looking for or I can step out of the box and learn something new to do it in php, ruby or the like), the ruleset development environment (looks quite fun), SQL persistence modules (is what I would be assured of completing) and the metaserver | 05:45 |
| nash | Well you can multiple submissions | 05:48 |
| DystopicFr1 | o.O | 05:48 |
| DystopicFr1 | as I said, bouncing around and looking at a bit of code to get a feel for things...I'd rather have a solid idea of what I can contribute, if anything | 05:49 |
| Epyon|AFK | I think the SQL persistence module isn't covered yet by anyone? | 05:49 |
| nash | Remeber the ideas are just ideas. We'd rather you come up with your own ideas - generally speaking something you come up with yourself will have better passion, and hence better results | 05:49 |
| nash | There is someone who has submitted a persistence proposal | 05:50 |
| nash | DystopicFr1: So if you have other ideas... feel free | 05:51 |
| DystopicFr1 | passion can come from taking possession of something...but yes, you've a point there | 05:51 |
| nash | DystopicFr1: Agreed. | 05:51 |
| nash | THe key is to make it your own. | 05:52 |
| nash | Working on someone else's project isn't the same (for this size work) | 05:52 |
| nash | But yes, if one of the ideas inspires you... go for it | 05:53 |
| DystopicFr1 | working on a project this semester, stuttering analysis program, which I was originally entirely unenthusiastic about...after the gears got churning I did turn it into something of my own thing, though that became a matter of generalizing it and making it more like a general framework for simple experiments to be delivered...but I ramble on...and shall return when I've a more solidified idea of what I can do and enjoy doing... | 05:54 |
| DystopicFr1 | thanks for your time, gents :) | 05:54 |
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| nash | no problem DystopicFr1... Hope to see an application soon | 06:01 |
| Epyon|AFK | nash, replied to the comment. | 06:02 |
| nash | Epyon|AFK: Cool | 06:03 |
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| nash | Epyon|AFK: response... | 06:36 |
| nash | Anywya - I'm heading home. | 06:43 |
| nash | Will probably be online in an hour or so | 06:44 |
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| * nash waves | 07:56 | |
| daxxar | Morning, nash. :-) | 08:15 |
| nash | Heyo | 08:15 |
| daxxar | Saw your comment, very gentle. Thanks. ;) | 08:15 |
| nash | I can be nasty if you like ;-) | 08:15 |
| daxxar | Only if you deem it relevant, :) | 08:16 |
| JLP | morning all | 08:17 |
| nash | daxxar: I should note however - there is a fair bit of competition for that project | 08:17 |
| daxxar | Yeah, :S | 08:18 |
| JLP | I see there are two newcomers here, DystopicFr1 and Lukstr | 08:18 |
| Lukstr | Howdy | 08:18 |
| * JLP goes to check if there are any new applications | 08:19 | |
| JLP | Lukstr: ahoy | 08:19 |
| daxxar | Wow, my electronics class has a lecture that involves SOA. :-p | 08:20 |
| JLP | Procedural Graphical Content for the 3D Client - a very nice one | 08:20 |
| JLP | Epyon|AFK: by the name I would guess it is yours? | 08:20 |
| daxxar | 08:15:33 < Epyon|AFK> I was away, and now I'm going to sleep, but I wrote down all your suggestions brlcad | 08:22 |
| daxxar | That's about an hour ago. | 08:22 |
| daxxar | But yes, it's his :) | 08:22 |
| JLP | daxxar: yeah i should get throu the IRC logs | 08:24 |
| daxxar | =) | 08:25 |
| * nash waves to JLP | 08:26 | |
| * JLP waves back at nash and goes reading the IRC log and the new application | 08:26 | |
| nash | heh | 08:28 |
| nash | There is a bit there... | 08:28 |
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| * JLP finishes reading | 09:00 | |
| JLP | damn there is realy a lot of stuff | 09:01 |
| JLP | Lukstr: so have you already explored the options | 09:04 |
| Lukstr | JLP: I've poked around a fair bit, I'm still not quite certain where I could apply myself best. I'm fairly confident that there is no need for more clients, at least right now. | 09:05 |
| daxxar | Lukstr submitted an application too? :-) | 09:05 |
| Lukstr | I plan to soon | 09:06 |
| daxxar | Cool. :-) | 09:06 |
| JLP | Lukstr: yeah there seams to be enough clients | 09:07 |
| JLP | daxxar: are you planing any extra application? | 09:10 |
| daxxar | JLP: Yes. :-) | 09:21 |
| nash | What for? | 09:22 |
| daxxar | JLP: But don't ask me any specifics about it. I'm thinking some server-work, though, most likely a ruleset. :) | 09:22 |
| daxxar | I need to do additional research, and I'm swamped until friday-ish. :) | 09:22 |
| JLP | daxxar: ok cool | 09:22 |
| Lukstr | join the club :P | 09:23 |
| daxxar | I decided to do the 3d client first, since it was the one that sparked my interest the most at first glance. :-) | 09:24 |
| JLP | daxxar: yeah, you are not alone :) | 09:24 |
| daxxar | I know :/ | 09:24 |
| Lukstr | JLP: I've got a question for you | 09:24 |
| daxxar | But, it's good for the project. ;) | 09:24 |
| Lukstr | How well does the metaserver interface with other servers right now? | 09:25 |
| JLP | Lukstr: you mean wiith Python server | 09:25 |
| Lukstr | Well, someone running a server. | 09:25 |
| JLP | Lukstr: there is support in C++ server, but if I'm right there is no support for it in Pthon server so far | 09:26 |
| Lukstr | I see | 09:26 |
| Lukstr | Which server is the "main" one which the most attention is given, the C++ server? | 09:27 |
| JLP | Lukstr: at leats i dont see anything in Python server changelog: | 09:28 |
| JLP | http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=tpserver-py;a=summary | 09:28 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/KSi> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 09:28 |
| JLP | Lukstr: yeah currently we use C++ server | 09:28 |
| Lukstr | Ah okay | 09:28 |
| Lukstr | good to know, thanks | 09:28 |
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| Lukstr | how are rulesets interpreted? | 09:48 |
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| daxxar | JLP: Thanks for the comment. ;-) | 09:59 |
| JLP | daxxar: no problem | 09:59 |
| nash | Lukstr: they are code. Loaded as a module at ru ntime normall | 10:00 |
| JLP | I really wonder how many applications Google will let us take | 10:01 |
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| Lukstr | nash: Is this the permanent plan, or might you switch to using some sort of xml format? | 10:01 |
| Lukstr | er, that makes no sense | 10:01 |
| nash | Lukstr: AFAIK it;s the plan. Describing an arbitrary game in a non-interpreted format would be... interesting | 10:01 |
| Lukstr | I mean, a scripting language, LUA for example | 10:02 |
| nash | Sure.. A lua interface to the module language would good | 10:02 |
| * nash likes Lua ;-) | 10:02 | |
| Lukstr | as do I, I have yet to really get into it though | 10:03 |
| nash | Lukstr: if you want a proposal... there is one for you | 10:03 |
| Lukstr | Alright :) I'm just inspired by the way Rise of Nations was constructed, each unit and race and resource all had its own data file | 10:03 |
| Lukstr | I want to look at Thousand Parsec as an interpreter | 10:04 |
| nash | Being able to write games in Lua would be nice | 10:04 |
| nash | yep | 10:04 |
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| JLP | llnz: ahoy | 10:08 |
| llnz | hi JLP | 10:09 |
| nash | heyo llnz. You've been quiet recently... | 10:11 |
| jotham | those are amazing http://wohba.com/pages/cave0307.html | 10:11 |
| tpb | Title: Cave Women (at wohba.com) | 10:11 |
| llnz | nash: hi | 10:11 |
| llnz | yeah, have some big stuff happening | 10:11 |
| llnz | nash: how do you trigger the bug? | 10:12 |
| nash | I just sent a list of orders to delete | 10:12 |
| nash | bool Persistence::removeOrder(uint32_t ordid){ | 10:12 |
| nash | return false; | 10:12 |
| nash | } | 10:12 |
| nash | Is the functon that is failing... surprisingly | 10:12 |
| llnz | oh... | 10:12 |
| llnz | right | 10:12 |
| nash | ;-) | 10:12 |
| nash | llnz: I can find an easy solution to the problem | 10:14 |
| nash | A correct solution is a little tougher ;-) | 10:14 |
| llnz | return true is the correct solution | 10:18 |
| nash | Really? | 10:18 |
| nash | Nothing else? | 10:18 |
| Lukstr | Devs: Where in the engine does Thousand Parsec become limited to Space games? | 10:19 |
| nash | It doesn't technically. It is just designed around them | 10:19 |
| llnz | Lukstr: not much | 10:19 |
| llnz | if the protocol can support is, then it's possible | 10:19 |
| nash | In theory you can do other games... however you'll find the protocol needs to have things changed in subtle ways | 10:20 |
| nash | Objects need 'area', not just a point and diamater for instance | 10:20 |
| Lukstr | That brings up another question, how do you decide what needs to be classified as protocal and what's left for rulesets to define? | 10:20 |
| llnz | the protocol defines the data that can be shuffled back and forward between the server and clients | 10:21 |
| llnz | the ruleset defines what the protocol data contains | 10:21 |
| nash | Lukstr: rules go in ruleset. | 10:21 |
| Lukstr | :P | 10:22 |
| nash | Protocol is metadata, rules generate the data | 10:22 |
| Lukstr | So theoretically you want a protocol that could handle an infinite number of ruleset possibilities | 10:22 |
| nash | Lukstr: i meant in the sense - if you find it in the manual - it's in the protocol | 10:22 |
| nash | Absolutely | 10:22 |
| Lukstr | So you're essentially building a turn based game engine | 10:22 |
| Lukstr | If the rulesets are constructed dynamic enough, anything's possible? | 10:23 |
| nash | At this pint yes... based around space 4x games for a starting opint | 10:23 |
| nash | Yes | 10:23 |
| Lukstr | Hm | 10:23 |
| Lukstr | I like :) | 10:24 |
| Lukstr | So how restrictive is your protocol currently? | 10:25 |
| nash | Lukstr: Take a look for yourself | 10:26 |
| nash | At the moment you can;t implement arbitrary 4x games.. so there is someway to go there. | 10:27 |
| nash | But future work to for tp07 or tp08 to go to anything turn based is possible | 10:27 |
| * nash didn't mean 'look for yourself' in a rude way BTW. Just if you look at the protcol spec you'll get a better idea of what is there | 10:28 | |
| Lukstr | I have read them over | 10:28 |
| Lukstr | So, where for example, is it defined that "something" is capable of creating other "things" ? Would that be in the protocol or the rulesets? | 10:29 |
| llnz | ruleset | 10:29 |
| Lukstr | Sorry if it seems like I'm going in circles, I'm just trying to see where the line has been drawn between the protocol and the ruleset | 10:29 |
| llnz | ruleset defines the order type that creates "things" | 10:29 |
| Lukstr | That's good to hear | 10:29 |
| llnz | the protocol is then used to describe and transmit that order | 10:30 |
| Lukstr | So, when you have an object that is a "Planet" and an object that is a "Fleet", could you just have an "Object" and then allow the ruleset to define if its moveable or stationary, if it has resources, or etc. | 10:33 |
| llnz | yes | 10:33 |
| llnz | btw, fleet and planet are defined in the ruleset | 10:33 |
| Lukstr | So they're both children of an "object" type class then | 10:34 |
| llnz | yes | 10:34 |
| Lukstr | It's just hard for me to differentiate these things, the webpages says that planets and fleets are seperate ojects, so I'm not sure what to think | 10:34 |
| llnz | (indirectly in tpserver-cpp, see the docs) | 10:34 |
| Lukstr | But thanks for clarifying | 10:34 |
| Lukstr | I see | 10:35 |
| nash | Lukstr: Look closer... Planest and fleets are types of objects.. there are 4 billion undefined types still there ;-) | 10:37 |
| llnz | hehe | 10:37 |
| llnz | 4 billion types *per ruleset* | 10:38 |
| Lukstr | So Planets and fleets are just examples of objects rather than implemented in the protocol | 10:38 |
| llnz | yeah (particularly at tp04 and later) | 10:40 |
| nash | Yes | 10:41 |
| nash | However there is a 'default' that objects 1-5 have defined 'type' in tp03... | 10:42 |
| Lukstr | So should I assume that we are working with a specific ruleset, and working out the bugs before going on, or "Ruleset Anything", and there are a few rulesets which work with the system (the latter I hope) | 10:42 |
| Lukstr | Ah okay | 10:42 |
| Lukstr | So these things can be overridden? | 10:42 |
| nash | Yes. | 10:44 |
| nash | Lukstr: A bit of both - you need a ruleset to see things work really. Designing a complete protocol without a test implementation (a ruleset) would bve crazy | 10:45 |
| Lukstr | I love crazy :) | 10:45 |
| nash | But the next protocol version tp04 starts getting xloser to the 'we can do anything' protocol | 10:46 |
| nash | With a few implementations | 10:46 |
| nash | Anyway I need to go for a little while | 10:46 |
| nash | I shall be back shortly | 10:46 |
| Lukstr | I do commend you for doing things in steps like you are, it's definitely smarter than just going from tp0 to tpFinal | 10:46 |
| Lukstr | Alright, later | 10:46 |
| daxxar | Hi llnz, you're a mentor, right? | 10:51 |
| llnz | yes | 10:52 |
| daxxar | Okay, pleasure to meet you. :) | 10:52 |
| llnz | nice to meet you too | 10:52 |
| llnz | ahhh... | 10:57 |
| llnz | :-) | 10:57 |
| daxxar | Hm? | 10:58 |
| llnz | reading your application now | 10:58 |
| daxxar | Ah. =) | 10:58 |
| llnz | i must release libtpproto-cpp 0.2.0 sometime | 11:00 |
| Lukstr | Quick question: If I saw correctly, it looked like the ruleset was included at compile time? | 11:01 |
| llnz | only under windows | 11:02 |
| llnz | under linux (or other unix) they are dynamically loaded libraries | 11:02 |
| Lukstr | That makes sense. Thanks | 11:02 |
| llnz | nash: just been look at the code around that bug | 11:10 |
| llnz | nash: not persistence's fault | 11:11 |
| nash | llnz: Hmm... okay | 11:30 |
| nash | That was the obvious thing I found | 11:31 |
| Lukstr | What time is it where you guys are? | 11:31 |
| nash | 10:30pm | 11:31 |
| llnz | 11:34pm | 11:31 |
| nash | llnz: I'll see if I can trigger it again | 11:32 |
| Lukstr | Wow, well it's 7:34 AM here, and I think I'm going get some sleep, so I guess goodnight still applies. I'll be sure to get in at least one application by this evening | 11:32 |
| nash | Lukstr: Look forward to it ;-) | 11:32 |
| Lukstr | As do I! My language skills go downhill when I haven't slept all night, so I'll tackle it when I'm in a more.... sober state. | 11:33 |
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| daxxar | llnz: Apropos libtpproto-cpp, does 0.2.0 support winsock? =) | 11:50 |
| daxxar | (I wrote in my application that I'd have to add that if my proposal was accepted, but it's based on what I read from the v0.1.0 source) | 11:50 |
| llnz | daxxar: not yet | 11:51 |
| daxxar | Okay. :) | 11:51 |
| daxxar | Not much work to add, though. | 11:51 |
| llnz | should be fairly easy, the socket code is well contained | 11:51 |
| daxxar | Does the msvc crt include errno/strerror, or is it "completely" replace by GetLastError? | 11:51 |
| llnz | i have no idea sorry | 11:52 |
| * llnz only develops under linux | 11:52 | |
| daxxar | I do a bit of both :-) | 11:52 |
| llnz | (execpt when paid large amounts) | 11:52 |
| daxxar | Haha, ;-) | 11:53 |
| daxxar | Well, seems errno is set only for the BSD/ANSI/POSIX/whatever functions, and not the WinAPI-specific. | 11:54 |
| llnz | subclassing TpSocket to use winsock should be enough | 12:01 |
| nash | wow - minisec is so sensitive to initial conditions | 12:04 |
| llnz | oh? | 12:04 |
| nash | Identical AIs.. #planets is almost double for one AI - only difference was it was 2 flight turns closer to a system with 10 planets then the other AI which had a closest neighbour with 6 planets | 12:05 |
| nash | llnz: Trying to get the order crash now... | 12:06 |
| daxxar | Aah. Higher resolution. <3 | 12:06 |
| * nash notes it's only a crash because his client exits on all fail frames.. | 12:07 | |
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| mithro | wow 11 applications | 12:13 |
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| nash | llnz: This is not my bug... | 12:21 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > About to Process | 12:22 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > Stage3 : logged in | 12:22 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > inGameFrame | 12:22 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > IG Frame processor | 12:22 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > Doing get order frame | 12:22 |
| nash | 2007-03-22 23:12:50 < Debug > Got multiple orders, returning a sequence | 12:22 |
| nash | tpserver-cpp> zsh: floating point exception (core dumped) tpserver-cpp -C ../ai_comp-short.conf | 12:22 |
| nash | bbs | 12:22 |
| mithro | wtf :P | 12:24 |
| llnz | oh, ffs | 12:25 |
| nash | llnz: ? | 12:27 |
| llnz | just started demo1 (crash) | 12:27 |
| llnz | not sure about the floating point exception above | 12:29 |
| llnz | if it's where i think it is, it should never happen | 12:29 |
| nash | llnz: Want a core file? | 12:32 |
| nash | Isn;t useful... | 12:32 |
| nash | __uduvdi3 | 12:32 |
| llnz | ummm.... not really, but if you could do the following then it would help me | 12:32 |
| nash | no further back trace | 12:32 |
| llnz | oh | 12:33 |
| llnz | sucky | 12:33 |
| nash | llnz: I'll try again | 12:34 |
| llnz | thanks | 12:34 |
| nash | hmm.. .compiled with -g | 12:35 |
| llnz | hehe, that will help | 12:35 |
| nash | llnz: No, I mean it was already compiled with -g | 12:36 |
| llnz | oh | 12:37 |
| mithro | JLP: ping? | 12:37 |
| JLP | mithro: pong | 12:37 |
| mithro | nash/JLP/llnz: do you think we could get together sometime Wednesday night my time? | 12:38 |
| JLP | mithro: sure, no problem | 12:38 |
| llnz | yes, should be fine | 12:38 |
| mithro | say about 8-9pm Wednesday 28th? | 12:39 |
| mithro | +9:30 | 12:39 |
| daxxar | Ooh, is it for ... The Verdict? | 12:39 |
| nash | Shoudl be fine.. .but you'll need to remind me closer to the date | 12:39 |
| nash | daxxar: Or the comisseration party | 12:40 |
| mithro | Well - the time ends Sunday Night PDT | 12:40 |
| daxxar | nash: eep. :p | 12:40 |
| nash | ;-) | 12:40 |
| daxxar | The deadline was moved to monday afternoon PDT (tuesday noon UTC), mithro. | 12:40 |
| nash | daxxar: Keep submitting proposals, and get your friends to as well | 12:40 |
| daxxar | My friends already have fulltime work for the summer, except one, who's refusing to apply to anything but Debian. :-p | 12:41 |
| daxxar | I've tried! | 12:41 |
| mithro | daxxar: :/ | 12:41 |
| nash | daxxar: Apply in their name... | 12:41 |
| nash | Don't make them good | 12:41 |
| daxxar | nash: ^_^ | 12:41 |
| nash | llnz: crashed it again | 12:49 |
| nash | llnz: Running under debugger... | 12:50 |
| llnz | ok, cool | 12:50 |
| mithro | JLP/nash/llnz got 5 minutes to just have a quick private chat? | 12:52 |
| JLP | mithro: yup | 12:52 |
| llnz | nash: any more info? | 12:53 |
| nash | llnz: Not yet... debugger slows the server down that it can't handle 2 full paced clients... | 12:54 |
| nash | With 10 second turns | 12:54 |
| llnz | ah | 12:54 |
| nash | I'll try again | 12:54 |
| nash | llnz: Now I keep getting: ** Error: Seq 804: Err 3: Could not add order | 13:11 |
| llnz | humm... | 13:12 |
| llnz | have you got what you sent? | 13:23 |
| nash | Not at the moment... | 13:26 |
| nash | llnz: Problem is my clients are sending ~300 messages a second... | 13:26 |
| llnz | ah | 13:26 |
| llnz | hehehe, i'll let you off | 13:26 |
| nash | llnz: These AI's are stressing the server no end... | 13:27 |
| llnz | how it tpserver-cpp handling it? going ok? | 13:27 |
| llnz | turning console logging off (or log_level up to 3 or 4) might speed it up a bit | 13:28 |
| nash | llnz: Not so well.. 10 second turns with console logging will sometimes finish a turn before I can do the 3 round trips to set orders.. | 13:29 |
| llnz | 10 seconds is very short | 13:30 |
| llnz | the ai comp has 1 minute turns | 13:30 |
| llnz | (or 55 second or whatever) | 13:30 |
| * llnz wanders off | 13:36 | |
| llnz | later all | 13:36 |
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| daxxar | so nash, JLP; "protocol compliance test suite" - does this refer to p3 or the in-development p4? | 14:29 |
| daxxar | I see it refers to the p3 docs, =) | 14:30 |
| JLP | daxxar: i guess it should be tp03 for now, but should be easily extensible to tp04 and future ones | 14:30 |
| daxxar | Hm. Are there any applications on implementing MTSec yet? | 14:48 |
| JLP | daxxar: one | 14:50 |
| daxxar | Okay. The other three gamemodes? | 14:50 |
| JLP | daxxar: there is also one for RFTS | 14:51 |
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| JLP | cherez: ahoy | 15:38 |
| cherez | 'lo, JLP | 15:39 |
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| cherez | JLP: have you read this? http://mtsec.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/configuration-files/ | 15:49 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/KOq> (at mtsec.wordpress.com) | 15:49 |
| daxxar | Hm, neato. Who's behind it? | 15:54 |
| cherez | behind what? | 15:54 |
| daxxar | The blog, who wrote it? | 15:54 |
| cherez | I did | 15:54 |
| daxxar | Ah, okay. Sorry, I haven't kept up with all the who's-who in the SoC-applications. :) | 15:55 |
| Epyon|AFK | mornin' all :) | 15:55 |
| daxxar | Morning Epyon :) | 15:55 |
| Epyon|AFK | Hmm, maybe just once I'll... | 15:55 |
| *** Epyon|AFK is now known as Epyon | 15:55 | |
| Epyon | ... leave AFK xD | 15:55 |
| * daxxar gasps | 15:55 | |
| cherez | he's back! | 15:55 |
| cherez | daxxar: do you have any comments on the configuration system I proposed? | 15:56 |
| JLP | cherez: let me read it again | 15:56 |
| cherez | I was sure it would be shot down by now | 15:56 |
| daxxar | cherez: Does the ini-reader you propose deal with multiple variables with the | 15:56 |
| daxxar | .. same name? | 15:56 |
| daxxar | I.e. [section]\n foo=bar\n foo=asd | 15:56 |
| daxxar | If not; you only allow single inheritance? :-) | 15:57 |
| cherez | I actually have the code for that from a previous program I made | 15:57 |
| cherez | presently, if variable conflict the last one specified takes precedence | 15:57 |
| daxxar | And also, why not use Python for everything, instead of ini + python? | 15:57 |
| cherez | ini's are easier for non-python programmers, but using Python is also an option | 15:58 |
| cherez | I'm thinking of specifying a python script to be run in the ini if something is necessary that isn't supported yet i the ini | 16:00 |
| daxxar | True, but how hard can variable assignment be in python, even for nonprogrammers? | 16:01 |
| daxxar | (I'm honestly asking, I've got limited Python experience) | 16:01 |
| daxxar | Anyways, head home. Catch you in a few. :) | 16:01 |
| cherez | alright, so long | 16:01 |
| cherez | hmm, if I used Python scripts instead of inis/// | 16:12 |
| cherez | it would gain Turing Completeness and have full access to the entire program | 16:13 |
| cherez | but the configuration files would be more complicated, that could ward off amateur ruleset designers and would make ruleset generation programs more complex | 16:14 |
| cherez | we could get the benefits of both by having the .py specify a .ini in the configuration, or vice-versa | 16:14 |
| JLP | cherez: well i'm not sure what much to say about ini files, they are nice to make some small changes to the ruleset that is made in python/c++ modelu for the server | 16:16 |
| cherez | that's more/less how I picture it | 16:17 |
| JLP | cherez: i think there shouldn't be too much available o tune this way, if people start tuning ship properties and such this can be bad as it could unbalance a well balanced defaults that developer set in the server modules | 16:17 |
| cherez | then people won't play on those servers | 16:18 |
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| cherez | if people like playing that way, I don't see why we shouldn't let them | 16:19 |
| JLP | hm i imagined that there could be problems if people would join some server, see that it is MTSec game, and expect the defaults, but then they would be a bit surprised that it doesn't work as they expected the defaults | 16:20 |
| cherez | well, it's open source, so we can't force them to correctly represent themselves | 16:21 |
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| cherez | we could put in checks to ensure the player knows if it's MTSec or some custom derivative | 16:22 |
| JLP | cherez: but little things like, enable/disable mystery traders would be nice to have in ini file | 16:22 |
| JLP | generaly some easy configuration of some tunables is OK with me, but I guess this will have to be discussed also with mithro, llnz and nash to see what we generaly think what should be in | 16:24 |
| cherez | that's a good idea, we should see what the general consensus is on this | 16:25 |
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| sijmen | g'day :) | 16:33 |
| JLP | sijmen: hello | 16:34 |
| cherez | 'lo, sijmen | 16:34 |
| JLP | sijmen: are you here for the summer of code? | 16:34 |
| sijmen | Not specifically. But yes it's related | 16:35 |
| sijmen | just wanted to see how the community is | 16:35 |
| sijmen | but I don't have any questions or the likes | 16:35 |
| cherez | most of us are asleep or in class, I would suspect | 16:35 |
| JLP | sijmen: community is vibrant more than ever :) | 16:35 |
| sijmen | Heh yeah that happened with mono too, past two years | 16:36 |
| JLP | we have quite a few very nice applications, if only google would give us enough slots to make them all | 16:37 |
| sijmen | Well I think that if mine isn't accepted.. I might just do it as well in spare time | 16:37 |
| sijmen | on a somewhat smaller scale | 16:37 |
| sijmen | what are some other nice applications? | 16:38 |
| JLP | sijmen: yeah that is always nice to hear, i also hope some of the applicants will stay here and try to work on their project even if not accepted | 16:38 |
| sijmen | I hope someone signed up for the 3D client. I didn't, because I wasn't sure whether I could do it, but if someone would, I'd love to see the result :) | 16:38 |
| cherez | 3 people, I think? | 16:39 |
| sijmen | for the 3D client? :o | 16:39 |
| cherez | I know at least 2 did | 16:39 |
| sijmen | now that's cool | 16:39 |
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| JLP | sijmen: we have a couple of good applications for items from our ideas list and also one application that is not on the list (procedural generation of graphics) | 16:39 |
| JLP | yup, 3 people have applied for 3D client | 16:40 |
| sijmen | 3 serious ones? | 16:40 |
| sijmen | It would seem TP as a SoC project is pretty popular then | 16:40 |
| JLP | no 2 are serious, one is already more or less written of, unless some miracle happens and the submiter does some serious work on it | 16:41 |
| sijmen | okay | 16:41 |
| sijmen | it would seem my chances are pretty slim then (statistically) | 16:41 |
| JLP | yeah we are doing quite ok i guess, 10 good applications currently | 16:42 |
| sijmen | That's pretty nice | 16:42 |
| cherez | 10? | 16:42 |
| cherez | yikes, I better improve my application | 16:42 |
| sijmen | Yeah, interface mockup time :P | 16:42 |
| sijmen | seriously, would that be useful? a UI mockup? | 16:43 |
| JLP | yeah it would be, it is another bonus | 16:43 |
| sijmen | Then I will do that. | 16:43 |
| cherez | JLP: have you read my latest application? | 16:44 |
| sijmen | but eh all these people willing to sacrifice their summer holiday? | 16:45 |
| JLP | cherez: latest edit or new application? | 16:45 |
| cherez | edit | 16:45 |
| JLP | cherez: will do asap | 16:46 |
| cherez | I, for one, hate vacations, so I try to find things like this to fill them up | 16:46 |
| sijmen | ah, okay. | 16:47 |
| JLP | yeah well, even if doing soc there isn't hard o find about a week of free time to relax | 16:47 |
| cherez | JLP: thanks, nash and mithro seem out of critiques | 16:47 |
| sijmen | cherez, what is your proposal if I may ask? | 16:47 |
| JLP | cherez: then I guess there is more or less nothing to add | 16:48 |
| cherez | sijmen: have you played TP before? | 16:48 |
| sijmen | yes | 16:48 |
| cherez | alright, then you know Minisec is kind of a small game | 16:49 |
| * JLP reading MTSec application again | 16:49 | |
| sijmen | okay, let me correct that, I tried playing it | 16:49 |
| sijmen | and yes it seemed so | 16:49 |
| cherez | so I thought I'd implement MTSec so we'd have a bigger game | 16:49 |
| cherez | and featuring some cool ideas I've not seen in other games | 16:49 |
| cherez | I also want to implement a configuration system to allow people to make their own rulesets easily | 16:50 |
| cherez | but we're waiting for the other mentors to show up to discuss how that should work | 16:50 |
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| sijmen | that sounds good | 16:51 |
| sijmen | little question about the 3D client.. is that really with a 3D starmap? | 16:51 |
| sijmen | or 'just' using a 3D API? | 16:55 |
| cherez | I'm pretty certain the starmap is 3D | 16:56 |
| sijmen | okay. already? | 16:57 |
| sijmen | oh stupid yes of course | 16:58 |
| sijmen | I see | 16:58 |
| JLP | cherez: comment added | 16:59 |
| JLP | sijmen: yeah objects actually have the Z coordinate, but currently it is not in use (z = 0) | 17:00 |
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| sijmen | what happens to the 2D client when it is used? The Z axis is ignored and thus flattened? | 17:01 |
| JLP | sijmen: don't know, probably stars would be in layers and stars that are further away could be smaller or more dark or something | 17:03 |
| sijmen | but currently nothing happens? | 17:03 |
| JLP | i'm not sure if it is handled in current python client, would have to ask mithro | 17:04 |
| sijmen | by the way, on windows the 'move' cursor is black, and so is the background so positioning the mouse is very difficult | 17:04 |
| cherez | could someone with a 3D client move his fleets slightly off the Z axis to ensure a 2D client could never choose when fleets encounter each other? | 17:04 |
| sijmen | dito on OS X (Python client) | 17:05 |
| JLP | sijmen: you should report a bug for tpclient-py | 17:05 |
| sijmen | okay | 17:06 |
| JLP | cherez: have no idea, maybe even the minisec ruleset currently limits all objects to one plane | 17:06 |
| cherez | the Python server didn't look to restrict that at all, but I haven't looked at the C++ | 17:07 |
| sijmen | off for fod | 17:07 |
| sijmen | I can still add my UI mockup in a few hours right? | 17:07 |
| cherez | we have 4 days | 17:07 |
| sijmen | oh yeah | 17:08 |
| sijmen | I was mistaking 24 and 26 again.. | 17:08 |
| JLP | sijmen: sure | 17:08 |
| sijmen | gotta fly, see you | 17:10 |
| JLP | sijmen: bye | 17:11 |
| sijmen | The screenshot on the SF project, what client is that? | 17:28 |
| JLP | python/wxwindows | 17:32 |
| sijmen | uh.. well it looks way better than on my machine | 17:33 |
| sijmen | probably just a theme | 17:33 |
| sijmen | filed the cursor thing, #1686225 | 17:33 |
| JLP | yup i think it is some gnome theme | 17:33 |
| JLP | and thanks for the bug report | 17:34 |
| JLP | i wonder where the cursor comes from | 17:35 |
| JLP | it is always a good ide to have black cursor with white outline (or vice versa), just because of cases like this | 17:35 |
| sijmen | yeah | 17:35 |
| sijmen | why not use an OS provided cursor? | 17:36 |
| sijmen | Today will be a late-nighter.. filing one or two more proposals and making a mockup :P | 17:36 |
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| JLP | Iwanowitch: ahoy | 17:40 |
| Iwanowitch | Hello there! | 17:41 |
| sijmen | hey ho | 17:42 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP (or any other developer), a tiny question... What is the timeframe for protocol 4? | 17:42 |
| sijmen | is there some place where I can fetch all those planet images etc used in minisec? | 17:42 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: i think there is no timeframe defined, first we have to get soc throu succefully | 17:43 |
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| JLP | sijmen: i believe they are all in media module in darcs repository | 17:44 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP: I'm thinking of writing a Java protocol lib / client, so I should just go for protocol 3 in my application then? | 17:45 |
| Iwanowitch | For the start, at least. | 17:45 |
| Iwanowitch | With possibilities of extension and all that :) | 17:45 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: offcoursem to04 should mostly just be a backward compatible upgrade | 17:45 |
| sijmen | JLP, darkcs repository? | 17:46 |
| JLP | sijmen: yup, we use distributed version constrol system darcs for our code and other things | 17:46 |
| sijmen | and the SF svn? | 17:47 |
| JLP | sijmen: http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/dev/rcs.php | 17:47 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec : Source Code (at www.thousandparsec.net) | 17:47 |
| sijmen | thanks | 17:47 |
| JLP | sijmen: oh yeah, i forgot that now there is a svn mirro on SF too | 17:47 |
| sijmen | But eh I can't really find a media module | 17:48 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: there is a bit more info about TP04: http://blog.mithis.net/archives/tp/15-tp-protocol-overview | 17:48 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/JB-> (at blog.mithis.net) | 17:48 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP: so, basically, to do TP04, one needs to do 03 anyway? | 17:48 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: and there is also a thread on forums | 17:48 |
| JLP | sijmen: maybe media module is not mirrored to SF (only true code for librarues, servers and clients) | 17:49 |
| sijmen | well I'm looking http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi <- there | 17:50 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/$0b> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 17:50 |
| DystopicFr1 | sijmen: http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/media/ ? | 17:51 |
| tpb | Title: Index of /repos/media (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 17:51 |
| JLP | DystopicFr1: beat me to it :) | 17:52 |
| sijmen | huh.. well ok | 17:52 |
| Iwanowitch | That poster is mighty cool http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/media/promotion/posters/puny-galaxy/puny-galaxy.svg | 17:52 |
| DystopicFr1 | JLP: mind if I ask a question possibly outside you area of expertise? (hi, btw >.<) | 17:52 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/Ka8> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 17:52 |
| JLP | DystopicFr1: sure, i'll try to help if i can | 17:53 |
| sijmen | Iwanowitch, hah, that link is crashing my Safari | 17:53 |
| sijmen | oooh gotta run | 17:53 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, Safari has issues, then :P | 17:53 |
| Iwanowitch | It's .svg, works (at least partially) on Firefox... | 17:54 |
| JLP | sijmen: have a nice time and see you later | 17:54 |
| JLP | Konqueror also displays it fine so Safari should also display it since it is based on Konqueror | 17:54 |
| DystopicFr1 | soooo...I'm looking at the ruleset development environment project, which seems very very deep and cool. however, I'm just a little bit confused about the objectives since the rulesets seem to be implemented in either C++ of Python (depending on the server)...but the project description mention the tcpl language. now...I guess I'm just not looking deep enough in the code...but the ruleset env. would assist in the creation of C++ or P | 17:56 |
| JLP | DystopicFr1: if i'm right tcpl is a subset of scheme and it is basicaly used to define the properties of space ship designs and components, so that it controls what you can put together | 17:58 |
| JLP | and as far as i understand this tcpl is then used in C++ and Python serveres to control taht | 17:58 |
| JLP | so this component designer would be a GUI that would then output this tcpl code which is supposed to be hard to write by hand | 18:00 |
| DystopicFr1 | hm...kk..I guess I'm just still missing a piece of understanding, then. I hate the feeling of almost understanding but not... | 18:01 |
| DystopicFr1 | aye...that's what I thought...but I guess what throws me is I can't find any tcpl code anywhere | 18:01 |
| JLP | i guess it would be the best if you ask on forum so that mithro and/or llnz explain it in detail when they come online | 18:01 |
| DystopicFr1 | kk...thanks...I just couldn't resist making a grab for instant gratification :) | 18:03 |
| JLP | DystopicFr1: i can see only this http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/tpserver-cpp/modules/tpcl/ | 18:03 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/KaA> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 18:03 |
| JLP | for C++ server, but i'm not sure if this is the right place to look | 18:03 |
| DystopicFr1 | oh...now I feel rather silly...but yes...that looks to be the place to poke around | 18:06 |
| DystopicFr1 | many thanks | 18:06 |
| JLP | and in http://darcs.thousandparsec.net/repos/tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ there are some design* files that maybe have something to do with it | 18:06 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/KaF> (at darcs.thousandparsec.net) | 18:06 |
| JLP | but again, to be sure it would be the best to open a topic about this on developer forum | 18:07 |
| JLP | i'm sure others would be wondering where does scheme/tcpl fit into all things | 18:07 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP: perhaps you know, is that bokey.gurung person still around who was working on a libtpproto-java? | 18:09 |
| DystopicFr1 | *nods* thanks, will do | 18:09 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: i'm not sure, i think he is gone, at least i didn't see him ever since i joined th project | 18:10 |
| cherez | when is Protocol 4 going to be finalized? | 18:16 |
| JLP | cherez: no idea, mithro and llnz should be able to tell you, if there is even a date set, i think it is currently only in gathering ideas mode | 18:19 |
| JLP | cherez: so if you have any idea or comment about the new version of protocol, add it to the thread in forum | 18:19 |
| cherez | I need to study the protocol more first, but alright | 18:20 |
| cherez | maybe I should post that blog entry on the developer forum to get some feedback | 18:21 |
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| Epyon | JLP, nash, I've submitted the second application ;) | 18:46 |
| JLP | Epyon: awesome, let's check it out (btw, nash's currently not here) | 18:46 |
| Epyon | Duh, it's still "uploading" | 18:46 |
| Epyon | You'd think Google has the fastest servers, but no :P | 18:47 |
| JLP | aaa that's why i didn't see it :) | 18:47 |
| Epyon | Okay, it was uploaded. | 18:47 |
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| JLP | Epyon: strong application, but i guess that someone will for sure come up with commant for more specific risk management and specific dates in schdule | 19:10 |
| JLP | i realy hope google gives us a lot of f+slots, it would be very bad to not get such good projects done because some people couldn't get in | 19:11 |
| Epyon | "You have the right to code. Anything you code may be used against you in a court of applications. You have the right to a mentor. If you don't have the money to afford one, one will be assigned to you by Google" xDD | 19:12 |
| Iwanowitch | Epyon: if I'm allowed to ask, what did you propose? | 19:12 |
| Epyon | EliteSec xD | 19:12 |
| Iwanowitch | Whoah, cool. | 19:12 |
| Epyon | JLP, I'll comment on it once nash brings up risk assesment :> | 19:12 |
| dmpayton | Epyon: New game implementation, like Mini/MTSec?? | 19:13 |
| daxxar | Why hasn't that puny-galaxy.svg been rendered to a png or something? It's too big for my monitor :o | 19:13 |
| daxxar | (and trying to resize it using firefox just resizes the font) | 19:13 |
| Epyon | Yep, but a smaller scale trader like game. Not my idea btw, it was proposed by nash, I just filled out the details, and added some love :P | 19:14 |
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| dmpayton | Epyon: Sounds interesting :) | 19:15 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: hello | 19:15 |
| fizzleboink | hey guys | 19:15 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: are you here for summer of code | 19:15 |
| fizzleboink | JLP: that's how I found out about you guys, yes | 19:16 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: cool, has any idea already cought your attention? | 19:16 |
| JLP | or do you have some idea of your own | 19:16 |
| Epyon | JLP, I must sincerely say, that of all the GSoC related irc-channels I visited, TP's is the only one where the mentors show true interest :). | 19:18 |
| fizzleboink | well there are a few that seem interesting, I am just not familiar enough with the game yet | 19:18 |
| JLP | Epyon: well we try, and thanks | 19:18 |
| Epyon | JLP, as I understand the more applications, the more slots you get? | 19:19 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: i suggest you go thru ideas, see which one you would like to work on the most and then further explore that part of the project | 19:19 |
| Iwanowitch | fizzleboink: I think most of us hadn't heard about the project before, so don't be discouraged. :) | 19:20 |
| JLP | Epyon: yeah i think so, although there probably is some hard limit based on number of mentors, i doubt that they will give us so many slots that each mentor would get 2 | 19:20 |
| fizzleboink | JLP: I'm working on that right now thanks | 19:21 |
| fizzleboink | Iwanowitch: I'm a huge fan of this genre though :) | 19:21 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: you are not alone :) | 19:28 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP: would you be seriously offended if parts of a second application (like my biography) are copied from a first application? | 19:31 |
| fizzleboink | have you guys received a lot of applications in a certain area? | 19:31 |
| daxxar | fizzleboink: 3d client is the most swamped project, I think. ;-) | 19:32 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: nope i wouldn't be, bio is probably the same, unless if there is some experince that could be more specific to the selected idea | 19:32 |
| JLP | fizzleboink: 3D clients is the most popular | 19:32 |
| JLP | 3 applications, 2 good ones | 19:33 |
| Iwanowitch | JLP: I submitted my second application - mobile phone client. | 19:37 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: great, let me check it out | 19:39 |
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| JLP | xdotx: ahoy | 19:41 |
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| xdotx | JLP: yo | 19:44 |
| JLP | jernejovc: ahoy, have are you doing | 19:44 |
| jernejovc | fine, you? | 19:46 |
| JLP | same old same old | 19:46 |
| jernejovc | yup :) | 19:47 |
| Epyon | JLP, what's the application count? | 19:47 |
| Epyon | With your good/bad judgement? | 19:47 |
| JLP | Epyon: 13 | 19:47 |
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| JLP | i bad | 19:48 |
| Epyon | JLP, preliminary quality judgement? | 19:48 |
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| MaYa | hey | 19:48 |
| MaYa | hey JLP | 19:48 |
| MaYa | :D | 19:48 |
| JLP | Epyon: most are very good, it will be hard to choose the allowed number of them | 19:48 |
| JLP | MaYa: ahoy | 19:49 |
| jernejovc`away | be right back, 20min, south park s11e03 :) | 19:49 |
| MaYa | don't belive JLP, he's "laze" ;) hihihi just kidding | 19:50 |
| JLP | MaYa: let's keep the SNR low, shall we :) | 19:51 |
| MaYa | ooooooooooooooook... | 19:51 |
| * JLP goes reading Mobile phone client application | 19:53 | |
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| fizzleboink | JLP: I've narrowed it down to 2: protocol test suite and diplomacy in space | 19:58 |
| Iwanowitch | fizzleboink: there is nothing wrong in submitting 2 applications... | 20:00 |
| Iwanowitch | The mentors highly suggest you do. | 20:00 |
| fizzleboink | Iwanowitch: yes I saw that, I probably will | 20:01 |
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| Iwanowitch | Argh, sorry for the dropout - my internet connection likes to play tricks on me. | 20:16 |
| xdotx | like surprise games of hide and seek? | 20:16 |
| Iwanowitch | Yeah, or some form of tag: catch me if you can. | 20:18 |
| Iwanowitch | Pretty annoying, a playful internet connection. | 20:19 |
| xdotx | sounds like it :) | 20:20 |
| daxxar | Just tell it you've got a headache, and it should give up. | 20:26 |
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| Iwanowitch | Eek, now XChat was borking up... Couldn't see any text anymore. My computer is going all crazy... | 20:31 |
| fizzleboink | JLP: the application deadline on the GSoC site was extended to March 26, will you be extending your dealine to that date as well? | 20:43 |
| JLP | yup, as the topic here says, 26th of march | 20:44 |
| fizzleboink | oops :P | 20:44 |
| cherez | more SoC students? | 20:44 |
| JLP | yeah more students, we'll have to hire some mentor to handle all :) | 20:45 |
| Iwanowitch | Ohh! Pick me! Pick me! :P | 20:46 |
| JLP | Iwanowitch: but then you will not be allowed to participate in soc as student | 20:46 |
| Iwanowitch | Hmm, true. Decisions, decicions... | 20:47 |
| cherez | pick Iwanowitch! | 20:47 |
| cherez | thanks for taking one for the team | 20:48 |
| Lukstr | haha | 20:51 |
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| sijmen | baack | 21:36 |
| cherez | 'lo, sijmen | 21:37 |
| sijmen | 'lo, cherez | 21:37 |
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| Iwanowitch | Heya mithro. | 21:43 |
| JLP | mithro: hey ho | 21:43 |
| mithro | hey | 21:43 |
| mithro | JLP: 14 applications!? | 21:43 |
| JLP | hm 13 if i didn't miss anything | 21:43 |
| JLP | mithro: and it looks like i did | 21:44 |
| sijmen | How many slots do you think you're getting? | 21:44 |
| fizzleboink | you should be getting at least one more :P | 21:45 |
| sijmen | make that two. | 21:45 |
| sijmen | I'm going to submit a second (totally different) application tomorrow :P | 21:45 |
| Iwanowitch | I'm also thinking of submitting another one :P | 21:47 |
| sijmen | what was your first one? | 21:47 |
| mithro | sijmen: that would be good | 21:47 |
| sijmen | hmm? is the other one not? :P | 21:48 |
| Iwanowitch | sijmen: I already submitted applications for an SQLite persistance module in tpserver-cpp and a Java client for mobile phones, and I think of adding the metaserver as third one. | 21:49 |
| sijmen | What's a metaserver? | 21:50 |
| Iwanowitch | The thing that says where all the servers are. | 21:50 |
| sijmen | The Java client for mobile phones sounds nice.. are you creating a Java implementation of the protocol? | 21:50 |
| sijmen | ah okay | 21:50 |
| Iwanowitch | Yep, I'll need it. | 21:50 |
| sijmen | nice | 21:51 |
| Iwanowitch | The very helpful metaserver is currently here, btw: http://metaserver.thousandparsec.net/ | 21:51 |
| tpb | Title: Thousand Parsec : Metaserver Server Listing (at metaserver.thousandparsec.net) | 21:51 |
| sijmen | So.. what your your metaserver add then? | 21:51 |
| fizzleboink | it's basically a server lobby for finding games | 21:52 |
| Iwanowitch | I'm still thinking about it... Basically what is in the page for the SoC (stats, matchmaking, ..) and perhaps a couple of things more if I can think of any. | 21:53 |
| mithro | hi fizzleboink and sijmen - welcome | 21:54 |
| fizzleboink | hello mithro | 21:54 |
| sijmen | hi mithro :) | 21:54 |
| * mithro is one of the mentors and a project founder | 21:54 | |
| mithro | but he is about to disappear :P | 21:54 |
| sijmen | oooh.. why that? | 21:55 |
| fizzleboink | nice to meet you mithro, I'm a comp. eng. student wanting to get into game development | 21:55 |
| fizzleboink | mithro: I noticed on the SF todo list that you have a need for a planet name/description + fleet name generator... what do you think of this as a SoC project? | 21:56 |
| sijmen | I don't know what my study would be called in English, but it's closely related to CS, but more programming. Majoring in Game Technolgy | 21:57 |
| mithro | fizzleboink: it's a bit small for a SoC project | 21:57 |
| mithro | fizzleboink: feel free to expand it into something however | 21:58 |
| fizzleboink | mithro: yes I felt that as well, I'll put some thought into it | 21:58 |
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| mithro | fizzleboink: something which could do all types of generation would be cool | 22:01 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: is the metaserver supposed to be distributed to end-users? Or is it something that should only run on the TP server? | 22:01 |
| mithro | hey nash | 22:02 |
| mithro | 14 apps! | 22:02 |
| nash | mithro: Sweet - I saw 13 when I left for work... so another | 22:02 |
| fizzleboink | hello nash | 22:02 |
| nash | hello fizzleboink | 22:03 |
| nash | You are a here for SoC I assume? | 22:03 |
| mithro | I had a weird dream about people buying stuff from the cafepress shop | 22:03 |
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| mithro | wow! | 22:03 |
| fizzleboink | nash: yep :) | 22:03 |
| mithro | we just hit 20 users | 22:03 |
| mithro | until dmpayton left | 22:03 |
| fizzleboink | I saw 21 at one point | 22:03 |
| nash | fizzleboink: What are you interested in?? | 22:03 |
| cherez | so what proposals have been received? | 22:05 |
| * nash is looking now... | 22:05 | |
| fizzleboink | nash: originally the 3d engine caught my eye but I heard that there were 3 apps for it already, so I'm looking at implementing a Diplomacy ruleset, the protocol test suite (might be too much for me), or a name generator | 22:05 |
| * nash is worried it's another 3 3d clients... | 22:05 | |
| nash | fizzleboink: Yeah... 3d client is... let us say popular... ;-) | 22:05 |
| sijmen | indeed, you should look at other.. kinds.. of clients instead ;) | 22:06 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: poke, poke :). Iis the metaserver supposed to be running on one place only? And, if yes, what platforms does that place support? Does it do (pray, pray) Perl? | 22:07 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: it's php | 22:08 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: currently there is only 1 active server probably | 22:08 |
| mithro | fizzleboink: feel free to submit multiple applications | 22:08 |
| fizzleboink | mithro: I almost certainly will | 22:09 |
| cherez | a name generator? | 22:09 |
| nash | fizzleboink: Actually it's recommended you submit multiple ;-) | 22:09 |
| nash | A name generator is probably a bit small | 22:09 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: Would another language be of any use, or are you keeping it to PHP strictly? | 22:09 |
| * nash notes it would probably fit with procedural generation then | 22:09 | |
| fizzleboink | nash: yes I'm thinking on how to expand it | 22:09 |
| cherez | I need to come up with more things to apply for, but I've been too busy with this blasted school work to think about it | 22:10 |
| sijmen | Just a poll for potential: a .NET client library (possibly also for the Compact Framework) | 22:10 |
| cherez | nash, mithro: JLP and I had a debate earlier about the configuration system, I'd like to hear your opinions | 22:11 |
| nash | cherez: Which aspect? | 22:11 |
| nash | Is the Diplomacy in space applicant here? | 22:12 |
| Iwanowitch | .NET would be useful I think... C# and VB.NET are becoming popular. | 22:12 |
| JLP | nash: i guess he would be scottpr but he's not here now | 22:13 |
| nash | JLP: Cool | 22:13 |
| nash | If you see him... can you let me know... I want to ask him about his experience with the game | 22:13 |
| cherez | oh, it's JLP | 22:14 |
| cherez | care to share your opinion on the ini configuration? | 22:15 |
| *** mithro has quit IRC | 22:15 | |
| nash | cherez: Which aspect of ini configuration? | 22:16 |
| cherez | well, our discussion started about16:17 on today's IRC logs | 22:16 |
| cherez | <JLP> cherez: i think there shouldn't be too much available o tune this way, if people start tuning ship properties and such this can be bad as it could unbalance a well balanced defaults that developer set in the server modules | 22:16 |
| *** clayasaurus has joined #tp | 22:18 | |
| nash | Arbitrary argument... I think a larger danger is people not bothering to do a decent ruleset in the first place, and just rely on people fixing the config file afterwards. | 22:19 |
| nash | In any case... the configurable level of a ruleset is arbitrary. | 22:19 |
| nash | More important is writing the ruleset in the first place. | 22:19 |
| cherez | still, I think it would be better to make all aspects of the ruleset easily changed | 22:23 |
| cherez | so people can experiment a lot if they want without having to study the code | 22:23 |
| cherez | if they do something that makes the game not fun, people just will stay off those servers | 22:23 |
| cherez | anyway, besides this it seems the only debate has been whether using .ini or .py as a default is preferable | 22:26 |
| JLP | nash: i found out that scottpr is actually only present on Forums, so far | 22:26 |
| nash | JLP: okay. I notice he makes no mention of IRC or IM in his application... *sigh* A true diplomacy player then... | 22:27 |
| nash | cherez: I really don't care about the file format. As long as it works out of the box without spending months playing with some config file. | 22:27 |
| JLP | cherez: i suggest that you pay a lot of attention on a well balanced default ruleset, and only add support for config file later if all goes well and you have time left for it | 22:29 |
| cherez | implementing the config file isn't very hard | 22:30 |
| nash | No, but it leads to not getting the basics right... | 22:30 |
| cherez | hmm? | 22:30 |
| nash | Applications with lots of configuration options tend to need them to make it usuable. Applicaitons with few options tend to just do the right thing in the first place | 22:31 |
| jotham | yep | 22:31 |
| jotham | linux suffers from a gross degree of overcustomisation | 22:31 |
| jotham | let feature requests drive change choices, don't put 19039849013902890123 things in in the first place | 22:32 |
| *** Demitar_ has joined #tp | 22:32 | |
| nash | Using a config file to help you develop is all good. The options being there are fine... But at the end of the day - it needs to work well out of the box | 22:32 |
| jotham | i wish software would focus more often on the ONE thing it is meant to do well | 22:32 |
| nash | Yep | 22:33 |
| Iwanowitch | So, with mithro dropped connection, is there anyone else who knows what the capabilities of the server are where the metaserver runs on? | 22:37 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Are you after anything in particular? mithro has root on the box.. so he can install pretty much anything he is after on it | 22:38 |
| Lukstr | root is evil | 22:40 |
| Iwanowitch | nash: I was kind of thinking, perhaps it is necessary to keep a server daemon running instead of only acting on request, and that would be hard with PHP. | 22:40 |
| Iwanowitch | Well, I think - I only know basic PHP. | 22:40 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: Or a database' | 22:41 |
| Lukstr | What's wrong with acting on request? | 22:41 |
| nash | However to handle TCP requests it may be easier to have a deamon which PHP or similar talks to from the webpage | 22:41 |
| Iwanowitch | Yes, but perhaps you'd need to initiate requests from the metaserver yourself, no? | 22:41 |
| nash | Possibly. | 22:42 |
| * nash notes the daemon could write a static page for the metaserver state too | 22:42 | |
| Lukstr | That would be pretty | 22:42 |
| Iwanowitch | Ah, indeed... | 22:42 |
| *** mithro has joined #tp | 22:45 | |
| Lukstr | wb | 22:46 |
| mithro | howdy people | 22:48 |
| mithro | at uni now | 22:48 |
| Iwanowitch | wb | 22:48 |
| Iwanowitch | mithro: what do you think about using a daemon for the metaserver instead of plain PHP? It might facilate things like stats generation, back connection, ... | 22:49 |
| mithro | Iwanowitch: i'm fine with that | 22:49 |
| Iwanowitch | Is Perl fine, too? I like that language... | 22:51 |
| * jotham drops a pin | 22:52 | |
| jotham | *tink* | 22:52 |
| nash | Iwanowitch: As a long time perl programmer... May I suggest a maintainable language... like Intercal or BF? | 22:53 |
| jotham | haha | 22:53 |
| Iwanowitch | Malbolge? | 22:53 |
| Iwanowitch | Or Piet. | 22:53 |
| Iwanowitch | That one is fun. | 22:53 |
| cherez | I vote Malbolge | 22:54 |
| cherez | you don't even have to maintain it yourself, it will update the code for you | 22:54 |
| fizzleboink | haha | 22:55 |
| * sijmen checks to see if there are any chocolate easter eggs left | 22:55 | |
| sijmen | One little question.. why is the python interface so horrible? | 23:00 |
| sijmen | *Python client | 23:00 |
| sijmen | does it have to do with manually having to position all controls in code, or does just just need some loe? | 23:01 |
| sijmen | *love.. | 23:01 |
| *** Demitar_ has quit IRC | 23:04 | |
| nash | sijmen: It needs love... and wxwindows isn't the best of interfaces | 23:11 |
| Iwanowitch | In a couple of months we have 5 different 3D interfaces anyway. | 23:12 |
| sijmen | and a Mac interface :) | 23:16 |
| sijmen | But it's not just the layout.. it's the whole UI setup. Command creation was (to me) as illogical as it could get | 23:16 |
| Iwanowitch | True - and there's things like having to look up ID's all the time. | 23:17 |
| sijmen | oh yeah | 23:17 |
| sijmen | When I saw that one planet had owner #-1 I went over there with my ship (owned bij #1), but #3 beat me to it :/ | 23:18 |
| sijmen | anyone here took a look at my Mac client proposal? | 23:19 |
| Iwanowitch | sijmen: just a quick question, what is your mother tongue? That 'bij' looks suspicious... | 23:21 |
| sijmen | hah, Dutch | 23:21 |
| Iwanowitch | Mooi. :) | 23:22 |
| jotham | haha suspicious | 23:22 |
| sijmen | Isn't "native language" better? | 23:22 |
| jotham | you know mother tongue might be better | 23:22 |
| jotham | the language of your mother | 23:22 |
| Iwanowitch | Mother tongue, native language, first language, all the same I guess. | 23:22 |
| jotham | native is a little ambiguous eh | 23:23 |
| sijmen | okay | 23:23 |
| jotham | cause you can be born in a country but not be exposed to its local language | 23:23 |
| jotham | (rare i know) | 23:23 |
| sijmen | true... | 23:24 |
| Iwanowitch | sijmen: Netherlands, Belgium? Somehwere exotic? | 23:24 |
| sijmen | Netherlands | 23:25 |
| jotham | i lived in den haag eindhoven and amsterdam for 3 years | 23:25 |
| mithro | sijmen: your Mac client proposal has a bunch of comments now | 23:25 |
| mithro | sijmen: the main reason the wxPython client sucks so much (UI wise) is that I'm the primary developer and I hate GUIs :P | 23:26 |
| Iwanowitch | XD | 23:26 |
| sijmen | I love GUI's, and I love to help out in any way I can | 23:26 |
| sijmen | ... as long as I don't have to hardcode the stuff | 23:27 |
| sijmen | mithro, there are 3 comments, one by Timothy Robert Ansell, one long response by me, and a correction to my response | 23:28 |
| mithro | the -dev version of the client has moved to using XRC files | 23:29 |
| mithro | looking at your response now | 23:30 |
| sijmen | oh you -are- Tim Ansell :) | 23:30 |
| mithro | yes :P | 23:31 |
| mithro | sijmen: I would love to see some of your UI ideas - I just have a hard time justifying spending a large portition on a section of our community which is very very small | 23:32 |
| sijmen | I can see that. | 23:32 |
| sijmen | I mean, it's logical | 23:32 |
| sijmen | But I think that such a client would actually attract quite some people | 23:33 |
| mithro | sijmen: if you where intrested in working on improving the wxWidgets client it would be much easier to justify it | 23:33 |
| mithro | anyway I have go to do some soldering - be back in 30-40 minutes | 23:34 |
| sijmen | Well I'm totally new to python | 23:34 |
| sijmen | okay | 23:35 |
| mithro | i will read the traceback if you want to think out loud | 23:36 |
| sijmen | hmm | 23:37 |
| sijmen | My thoughts now are moving towards a .NET client. It won't let me have some of the nice features (floating panels are more difficult to implement. possible, but difficult) | 23:38 |
| sijmen | Visual Studio has a great interface designer | 23:38 |
| sijmen | And I've been coding C# for years, so technically it won't be a huge challenge | 23:38 |
| sijmen | also the Windows market is way larger than the Linux market | 23:39 |
| sijmen | Another thing I could do is a Java applet version | 23:39 |
| clayasaurus | open source dudes like linux, though :) | 23:43 |
| sijmen | Obviously, interface designers do not | 23:43 |
| sijmen | not that I am one | 23:44 |
| clayasaurus | maybe use Mono? though I don't know how good it is | 23:44 |
| sijmen | Yeah that came to mind when you said that | 23:44 |
| sijmen | Gtk# could be a very good option | 23:44 |
| sijmen | It now comes with UI designer | 23:45 |
| sijmen | And I have to admit, Gnome looks nice | 23:45 |
| sijmen | Gtk# apps can run on Windows, too. | 23:45 |
| *** clayasaurus has quit IRC | 23:46 | |
| sijmen | Windows and Gnome interfaces are generally look-and-feel compatible (as opposed to OS X) | 23:46 |
| * sijmen checks out MonoDevelop | 23:48 | |
| jotham | mono is comming along nicely for osx | 23:48 |
| jotham | can run .net 1.1 stuff now and it's reasonably ok | 23:48 |
| sijmen | Yeah, but Gnome and Aqua aren't look and feel compatible | 23:48 |
| jotham | yeah definatly agree wwith you | 23:48 |
| sijmen | So I'd opt for a cross-platform Mac-Windows version but a serperate Mac one | 23:49 |
| sijmen | they could share big parts of the backend though | 23:49 |
| mithro | sijmen: Linux/Unix is our biggest userbase | 23:49 |
| fizzleboink | but most gamers are on windows | 23:49 |
| sijmen | .. and least games are on OS X. making any new game stand out. | 23:50 |
| fizzleboink | true enough | 23:50 |
| sijmen | ough | 23:51 |
| sijmen | MonoDevelop is big and cluttered | 23:51 |
| mithro | sijmen: "free platforms" are the most important to us | 23:52 |
| sijmen | why? | 23:52 |
| jotham | mithro i would question why linux is your biggest unix base - and not let that guide your choices | 23:52 |
| jotham | i think that sentence is back to front, but you get what i mean | 23:52 |
| sijmen | Linux has a minority 'market' share on the desktop market.. then how come the biggest amount of tp players use Linux? | 23:53 |
| jotham | the whole atmosphere of the project, and the places it exposes itself to the public lend itself to the linux community | 23:53 |
| jotham | not to the mac or wintendo community | 23:53 |
| sijmen | (I tend to associate Nintendo with Apple, that aside) | 23:54 |
| jotham | oh wintendo is just a play on the fact so many games exist for windows | 23:54 |
| sijmen | I know :P | 23:54 |
| cherez | I tend to associate XBox with Microsoft:-P | 23:54 |
| sijmen | I think a good Windows client (which could very well be Gtk# / Mono) could allow TP to escape from the Linux community | 23:56 |
| sijmen | escape is not the right word, sounds as if Linux is a prison | 23:56 |
| Iwanowitch | Transcend, perhaps? | 23:58 |
| JLP | spread the freedom is what you mean :) | 23:58 |
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