Tuesday, 2007-03-20

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JLPcherez: pong00:02
cherezI submitted an application00:03
nashYou guys need to be careful.. there is more table tennis then talk here...00:03
JLPnash: :)00:03
JLPcherez: i'll take a look00:03
cherezalright, thanks00:05
cherezwho composed the MTSec rules?00:18
JLPcherez: comments added00:19
JLPcherez: i think it was mithro who came up with the rules, and I guess llnz also helped him00:20
cherezthere are some things not mentioned in the rules I wanted to get clarification on00:21
cherezlike how missiles and torpedos are used00:21
JLPcherez: this would be the best to ask mithro, I think that basicaly every type of weapon has some size and then it depends on this size how many explosive you can packt in00:24
JLPcherez: you can also try to search the IRC logs, i think i talked about missles and torpedos with mithro some time ago00:25
cherezI understand the size part00:26
cherezit doesn't explain how they're launched00:26
cherezlike, if it's just ship to ship combat, or if you will have missile frigates  bombarding targets from across the map00:27
JLPcherez: ah the combat rules00:27
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cherezya, it explains resolving damage in a satisfactory way00:28
cherezbut it doesn't explain how you cause damage00:28
JLPcherez: as far as i know when ships arrive at one point and there is an enemy they all combine into one fleet, and then the firepower of the fleet is summed up and that is used in further calculations00:29
cherezis the firepower based on missiles and torpedos or another attribute of the ships?00:29
JLPcherez: yes, as far as i know, then the opponent can use other means like armour and dodging capability to lower the damage that would be done00:31
JLPcherez: but to be sure you should ask mithro , it could be that the combat rules aren't defined very well yet00:32
cherezthose were the same impressions I got, thanks00:33
cherezI'll ask when he shows up00:33
JLPcherez: or ask in forums and he will answer when he gets back, so that you don't miss each other and that we can see the conversation later00:34
cherezya, I need to stop by the forums later00:35
cherezback to my homework00:35
dmpaytoncherez: Bah, homework. :P01:39
* dmpayton has homework to work on aswell01:39
* JLP goes sleeping...01:48
JLPgood night all01:48
cherezgood night01:49
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mithronash: ping?04:11
nashmithro: pong!04:11
mithrohows life? you had a chance to read through some of the applications?04:11
nashNot yet - where are they?04:11
nashmy email is still farked04:12
tpbTitle: Google Code - Summer of Code - Edit Profile (at code.google.com)04:12
nashmithro: I've got the mentor reg page again.04:14
nashWait - logged in as the wrong google account...04:14
nashwait a moment04:14
nashNot bad so far04:15
nashWonder how many places TP will get04:15
nashmithro: Wow - the first is huge...04:16
* nash quickly scans the others04:16
mithronash: i think i'm really going to try and see if I can get 4 - I think there will be a little negotiation04:17
nashI thought they pretty much just assigned each project a number.  I'd be surprised if we can get 4 (pleasantly surprised)04:19
nashOne issue I see however is that there are 3 clients, and only 1 server side submission :-(04:19
mithronash: well - from what I understand they take something similar (success spots * your number of applications / all applications + fudge)04:20
mithrothere where about 6000 applications last year, and will be ~700 spots this year from what I understand04:21
cherezwhat's the issue here?04:21
mithrocherez: no issue, just chatting to nash about how many slots the project is likely to get04:22
cherezwhat are your conclusions?04:23
mithrocherez: wait and see :)04:24
nashI think the answer is not enough - but yes.. .wait and see, and make sure you have  a good application - possibly multiple ;-)04:24
cherezonly 4 of us have applied?04:25
nashcherez: In the past 4 days... yes... Still another week to go.04:25
mithrocherez: currently there are only 4 applications04:26
nashIn the past I believe most of the apps appear in the last 48 hours - it is students after all ;-)04:26
mithrohe he, yes I belive that is correct04:26
cherezand that will get more spots?04:26
nashcherez: Ideally ;-)04:26
mithrocherez: so feel free to submit more applications to do stuff :)04:27
mithrocherez: btw you had some questions about MTSec?04:27
chereznothing too specific, I'm a bit confused about how weapons will work in it04:28
cherezare they, say, launched every round of combat at the opposing fleet?04:28
mithrocherez: well, Combat hasn't really be properly worked out04:30
nashThat would be part of the project I think04:31
cherezat present, I get the impression that every tube launches 1 torpedo/missile per round then damage for both fleets resolves04:31
nashcherez: Seems sane.04:31
nashcherez: The trick is damage...04:32
cherezespecially with torpedos, since we can't really know if they damage or not04:32
mithronash and I where also discussing that torpedoes have to be built and loaded into a ship04:33
nashIndeed - and thinking about supply lines and transfer from ship to ship as well04:34
cherezthat thought just struck me as well04:34
mithrocherez: but you have flexability to adapt the ruleset as you find "bugs" and stuff04:35
mithrobtw cherez, what is your real name?04:35
cherezSteven Wallace04:36
mithrocherez: okay cool - your app has some comments on it, definately a good start04:36
nashOne part of that project is to make sure it is an interesting and deep game - as you noted in your application04:36
cherezI really like the idea of supply lines04:37
cherezscouts equipped with just racks to resupply your fleets04:37
nashWell scouts don't carry much... maybe something bigger to take more there in one ship..04:38
nashcherez: have you seen the comments on the proposal?04:38
cherezjust JLP's so far04:38
cherezI'm picturing battleships and dreadnaughts with large capacities, and scouts acting as runners04:39
nashOne comment to think about seriously is his comment on time line.  I would never approve a project at work without a time estimates.  You have a tight deadline, and a mid-project progress.04:40
nashMilestones would be important.04:40
nashThis applies to a lot proposals04:41
cherezya, I'm editing the submission now04:41
cherezman, I need to find the code to my Scrabble AI...04:42
cherezit had a very good inherited configuration system04:42
nashcherez: You should have entered the AI comp... still got a week ;-)04:42
cherezthat could make composing rulesets easy04:42
cherezI haven't played TP nearly enough to think I'm ready to enter the AI comp, though whenever the next comes I might go for it04:44
cherezwould anyone be opposed to trying to de-emphasizing the configure.py in place of an ini framework?04:44
cherezthat would make it easier for non-programmers to play with rulesets, and would let them be passed around without inspecting for viruses04:46
mithroyou mean the config.py in tpserver-py?04:46
cherezit's presently just a .py that specifies most customizable aspects of the game04:47
mithrowell, I prefer the config.py way - but if you can come up with a good way of doing it otherwise - feel free04:47
mithrocherez: yeah - I know I wrote it :)04:47
cherezI like the power of it, but I'd think an ini system might be friendlier04:48
mithrocherez: one choice would be to write a "config.py" which read ini files :P04:48
cherezthat was my intention04:48
mithrocherez: then go straight ahead :P04:50
cherezalso, the MTSec docs say nothing beats a Battle Frigate for Speed/Firepower ratio04:52
cherezbut if firepower is just a function of size, the Battleship has the best ratio04:52
cherezor at least the Frigate has equal firepower and higher speed04:53
nashcherez: Take some notes.04:53
nashmithro can correct me if I'm wrong... but you don't need to worry about using the exact details as printed - updating or modifying them is appropriate - especially if it makes a better game.  After all, it has never been play tested ;-)04:54
mithrocherez: there is a spreadsheet in that directory somewhere04:55
mithrobut as nash said - feel free to modify04:56
mithromake sure you don't cross this line however04:58
mithroMTSec will NOT include the following features:04:58
mithro    * Research (Creating and finding new technologies, etc).04:58
tpb<http://ln-s.net/K2t> (at www.thousandparsec.net)04:58
mithroanyway I'm running late now04:58
cherezalright, so long05:00
cherezso.. 12 weeks between the initial date and final submission...05:00
cherezwidterm being 7 weeks in...05:00
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mithrocherez: don't forget to include backup time and stuff05:01
mithrohello t0dd05:01
mithrot0dd: I have to run, but nash might have time to show you around05:02
nashhey t0dd05:03
t0ddalright, thank you05:03
nashcherez: Where are you locate05:03
t0ddhello.. I was here earlier. I am still not sure which project I would like to get involved with based on my experience. I really like the thousand parsec organization though and would love to get involved in some way05:04
nashWhat else are you looking at?05:05
cherezlocated physically?05:06
* nash notes this is not SoC related - just curious if you are another antipodian05:07
cherezthe United States05:07
t0ddI like the idea of creating a new "ruleset" development environment. I did something similar to this in my functional programming class and although I am only somewhat familiar with Lisp.. I do know ML very well05:07
cherezRolla, Missuori, to be exact05:07
nashKnow missuori, never heard of rolla ;-)05:07
cherezruleset development environment?05:07
nasht0dd: Cool.05:07
cherezit if weren't for the school, no one would have05:08
nashheh ;-)  My US geography is not exactly great... so it may be quite well known...05:08
cherezt0dd: You might we working with me then, I'm making a ruleset, and am modifying  the server to make rulesets easier to add05:08
nasht0dd: Have you started work on your proposal yet?05:08
* nash would be interested to see it. 05:08
t0ddI am working on it now.. I haven't really done much since I still wasn't sure which project would be right for me05:09
nashIt may be worth multiple applications (if you can... I'm not sure of all the student rules)05:10
cherez20 applications per student05:11
cherezmore than anyone has the right to make good applications for :-)05:11
nashThat's insane.05:11
nashAnyway - apply for both.05:11
t0ddit seems creating such an ide that would help developers to easily add new features would be highly beneficial05:12
t0ddthough I am not sure what this completely entails since I don't know much about thousand parsec.. I hope that wouldn't put me at a disadvantage05:13
cherezI don't know about the C++ server, but on the Python server it would be terrible at present05:14
nasht0dd: The website has a lot of details05:14
t0ddyeah, I'm looking around now05:14
nashWhat do you mean about the servers?  /me doesn;t quite follow05:14
cherezI don't know exactly what the ruleset editor does05:15
t0ddnash: are you staying a bit? I plan to submit my proposal shortly05:15
nasht0dd: I'll be leaving in about 1:30 minutes05:16
cherezbut if it is supposed to generate files the the servers to run, that could be tough05:16
nashcherez: Yes.  So it probably also needs to involve some meta-language for the server to understand to load the ruleset description...05:17
t0ddoh, nash! you are the mentor for this project05:20
t0ddhow about that.. haha05:20
t0ddsorry, that was just a major revelation on my part I guess.05:21
nashThat's okay05:21
cherezwell, since I'm looking to be coding the ruleset framework, I guess we'll need a meta-language05:21
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nasht0dd: However all of the mentors will be going through the proposals...05:22
nasht0dd: but it is an interesting project.  Possibly very elegant, and seems like a natural for a functional language05:27
chereznash: do you by chance know if the clients would work with a different ruleset, or if they have aspects of Minisec hardcoded?05:27
nashcherez: In theory, they should work without specific support.  Practically it woudl be nicer in some cases.05:28
nashAlso since there is only one ruleset ... it's all theory.05:28
nashThe python client should be fairly system agnostic.05:29
nashOthers you'd have to see05:29
cherezya, I might have to fix up at least 1 client to play05:29
nashcherez: Shouldn't be a major issue.  Any most issues will fall firmly in client bug05:30
cherezya, but I will need a way to test05:30
cherezshouldn't be hard to patch the clients05:31
cherezif it is... is there a text based client perchance?05:31
nashShoudl be easy - and you will get upstream support for core things.05:31
cherezahh, good05:31
nashThere is - I've never used, not sure of the state05:31
nashBut could be nice for testing ;-)05:31
cherezya, it should give me the least fight with changes to the server05:33
nashcherez: I wouldn't be too worried about that05:35
nashIt's not likely to be a show stopper.. .however you may wish to add it to risks in your proposal05:37
nasht0dd: BTW: Also the mentors aren't set in stone, they are fairly arbitrary at this point.05:44
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* mithro is at Uni in a lecture now :)05:47
nashSo nothing important in other words05:47
cherezwelcome home, mithro05:48
mithrodoing Commications 405:48
mithronash: you said you where having problems with your email? is that correct?05:49
cherezand you're communicating on IRC, way to show initiative05:49
nashmithro: Yes.  I should get it all okay later.. but for now it's pretty flaky05:49
nashyou can use [email protected] if you need to email me05:49
t0ddnash: I submitted my proposal05:49
t0ddnash: oh, I see. well, perhaps you still wouldnt mind looking at what I have submitted?05:50
* nash looks at t0dds proposal05:50
mithronash: it would be good if you could check for any SoC private emails - I might put a note on the webpage about your not being able to access email and recommend the list05:50
cherezmy next draft is nearly ready too05:51
nashOkay - or put in my work email for now - that is reliable - and I read them both normally05:51
nashcherez: cool05:51
nashmithro: Some interesting info on the SoC page05:51
mithronash: which page? :)05:52
nashThe list of projects05:52
mithronash: ooohh :)05:52
mithroi see now05:52
t0ddumm, the stupid ? in the second paragraph was supposed to be a smiley05:53
t0ddI forgot Microsoft Word automatically converts those05:53
mithrot0dd: my mum has been going on about Carnegie Mellon, where are you located?05:54
t0ddPittsburgh, Pennsylvania05:54
mithrot0dd: they have just started doing a big push in my home town - Adelaide, Australia05:57
t0ddoh, awesome.. that is where the cmu heinz school just relocated to in Australia05:58
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mithrot0dd: yeah, my mum thinks they are very strong in CompSci - I can't say I've heard of them before Mum started going on about them06:01
t0ddyeah, we are.. the phd program here has ranked #1 for the past couple of years in us weekly06:02
nashthat's nice06:03
t0ddI guess for cs and business is what we are most well-known for06:03
mithroI know your very well known for your buisness06:04
cherezI'm out of ideas to add to the application and the night is beginning to claim my intellect06:04
cherezI'd like to fix up the structure more, but I suppose I could get comments on how it  is now06:05
t0ddnash: what did you think of my initial submission?06:05
nasht0dd: Commenting now06:05
mithrocherez: I'm happy to have a running commentary :)06:05
mithrot0dd: i've commented too06:06
cherezmy next application is up whenever you guys want to read it over06:06
mithroi have to admit this is really exciting :)06:07
mithrocherez: all these new faces, getting applications to do stuff for Thousand Parsec, etc :)06:09
t0ddhmm, can I not repeatedly update the detailed description portion of my application?06:12
cherezglad you're enjoying it06:12
t0ddyeah, this is really a great program06:12
t0ddI have had no open source experience before this06:12
t0ddbut it is wonderful to get involved with it06:13
mithrot0dd: you should be able to update it once after each mentor comment06:13
t0ddoh, alright06:14
dmpaytonAnyone here listen to classic rock?06:15
cherezcome on dmpayton, at least make it sound like we're trying to be on topic:-P06:15
cherezand yes06:16
dmpaytoncherez: lol, sorry. :P Just found out that singer from Boston died. :(06:17
t0ddyeah, that was crazy06:17
t0ddI love the song Amanda06:17
mithrocherez: we are okay with off-topic chatter as long as it doesn't interfer with on-topic chat06:17
cherezthat's awful06:18
nasht0dd: More comments for you... A few are repeats of mithro's06:19
t0ddthank you very much06:20
mithrobtw peoples, don't be disheartened by comments - it means that you have a better chance as you have had feedback06:20
nashAbsolutely.  Most of the proposals are good so far.06:22
dmpaytonmithro: Yeah...sofar everyones comments have boiled down to "We want a timeline!"06:22
dmpaytonPlus JLB wants updates and nash wants to know the risks. :P06:23
mithrodmpayton: well - it's a little more then that - but yes a timeline is a very important part06:23
nashdmpayton: Trust me - I want the timeline, and I want the risks to see why the timeline may break06:23
mithroyou are working against a deadline on some rather big projects06:24
cherezwhat exactly do you want in the risks?06:24
dmpaytonAs far as updates go, I'm going to host a blog. However, I'm as-yet undecided when I'll use a pre-built one or roll my own06:24
dmpaytonI might roll my own using web.py, to get a better understanding of how it works before the main project begins in late-may06:25
nashActually it's a fairly big project time wise... 10 odd weeks of project... say 200-400 hours?  Maybe?  Not sure exactly.  There is a lot of time for things to go wrong.06:25
cherez12 weeks06:26
t0ddAre all of us here being considered for the same project?06:26
dmpaytont0dd: we're all be considered for different aspects of the same project06:26
cherezso risks will be a list of what could go wrong and prolong the project?06:26
nashcherez: I'm ignoring "Get up to speed time"06:26
dmpaytonthe project being the Thousand Parsec framework06:27
dmpaytonmy aspect being the web-client06:27
dmpaytonsomeone else may do a 3d client06:27
dmpaytonwork on the game implementation06:27
nashcherez: Yes - also things that can stop the project dead in it's tracks06:27
nashYou know the diff between technical and non-technical in this case?06:27
t0dddmpayton: these are different projects then06:27
t0ddwithin the framework06:28
cherezunless 2 people have tried to get the same project, I don't think that's happened yet06:29
mithrodon't forget things like "I get bed ridden for a week and can't code" or "My mentor gets hit by a bus", or ....06:29
nashmithro: You forgot "Social Life" ;-)06:30
cherez"girlfriend leaves me and a spend a month crying and eating only TV dinners"06:30
mithrocherez: that would be good for coding, no? :)06:31
mithroanyway I have to run06:31
cherezso long06:31
dmpaytonthere's also "I won the lottery and am taking a month-long vacation in the Bahamas" :)06:31
nashYou can leave out risks like that.06:34
nashbut a lot is: What worries me?  What do I think could take a lot longer then I expect?  What am I doing I've never done before...06:34
t0ddnash: could I private message you?06:34
nashIn a way risks are often the interesting part of the project06:34
nasht0dd: You may06:34
nashYou can also IM me if you like06:35
cherezso now that I added a timelime, I get to write why it's wrong06:35
nashcherez: Spoken like a true IT professional ;-)06:36
mithroyay for tcpip!06:43
mithromanaged to hold my connection over a VPN disconnect, change to new wireless connection - VPN connect06:44
nashgood thing it's not ssl ;-)06:45
mithronash: why?06:49
nashmithro: Don't worry - you are on the VPN... la da da...06:51
mithrowell my VPN isn't exactly encrypted :P06:51
nashAhh... So it's not really 'P' then ;-)06:56
mithroas private as the general internet :)06:58
mithroor wireless network06:58
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nashAnyway - I'll be bailing soon.06:59
nashokay leaving now...07:08
nashmithro: I won't be online again until tomorrow 9 (sydney time).  So I'll talk to you then...07:09
nashAll the students... keep up the good work... the proposals so far are great07:09
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mithrohi Lee07:21
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mithrollnz: lots of new applications07:24
llnz2cool, will have a look in a minute07:24
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llnzlooks like google has fixed that bug....07:30
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mithroheading home now08:31
mithrosee ya all later tonight08:31
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llnz2grrr... adsl08:47
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CIA-17Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/metaserverconnection.cpp :09:01
CIA-17Stop exception on socket error connecting to metaserver:09:01
CIA-17 One character change. The exception makes the server stop.09:01
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llnzsilly adsl....09:20
llnzwp mithro09:21
dmpaytonquestion on the star map. How imperative is it that you're able to zoom in? For instance, I was thinking of having a single-scale map that starts out with your system centered. Then, of course, a list of all universe object that you can click on to go to them.09:21
* dmpayton is assessing the risks as Nash wanted, and the star map is one of them09:22
mithrodmpayton: zooming would be pretty important09:22
mithrojotham: ping?09:24
llnzdmpayton: distances between things are important, as is visualising the distances09:28
* dmpayton looks into a pythong grpahics library, as his original idea may not work.09:30
mithrodmpayton: PIL?09:32
dmpaytonI was looking at PyX (googled: python graphics), but PIL would work aswell09:33
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dmpaytonThing is, I wanted the images of each object get larger as you zoom in... like having a star take up half the map, or actually being able to see a ship09:36
llnzprovide multiple maps (map views)09:37
llnzone with the overview, one with the detail (the one you just described)09:37
dmpaytonbuilding the mpas dynamically in Python would be more server resource intensive09:39
llnzshouldn't be too bad with layering09:40
dmpaytonI spent a little time working on a little prototype star map... nothing big, just uses JS to place star images according to XY coords09:45
mithrodmpayton: you may be able to pre-generate a large number09:45
mithrodmpayton: you can scale the sizes using different height/width?09:46
dmpaytonI don't know... I may leave this issue open in the application (client side JS vs server side python)09:46
dmpaytonIt'd be cool to impliment it in vPython, but...that's not really feasible for a web app. :P09:48
dmpaytonFor having such strong advocacy for Python, Google sure has a lot of Java projects on their ideas page09:51
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mithrodmpayton: he he :)09:53
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mithrothey buy a lot of other companies09:53
dmpaytonwell, they're all related to GWT, which is home-grown, so buying other companies is a bad excuse. :P09:57
mithroahh well, that was my guess09:58
dmpaytonI'm going to leave the issue of the star map open for now in the application. That okay?10:05
mithrodmpayton: thats fine10:05
* llnz wonders why there is only one c++ application so far10:10
mithrollnz: C++ is evil ;)10:11
llnzpython is a snake, not that much better10:11
dmpaytonHey, snakes are awesome10:14
dmpaytonInfact, I just adopted 2 Ball Pythons. :)10:14
llnzc++ is a ladder, python is a snake :-p10:14
dmpaytonPaid for them yesterday... well get them when I move to California in the coming weeks10:15
dmpayton3 years old, fully grown, about 5 feet long each. :)10:15
dmpaytonI assume clayasaurus wants to write the 3d client in Python?10:16
mithrodmpayton: cool10:16
mithrodmpayton: yes10:16
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llnzlater all10:25
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jothamwe should be using opengl (via amanith probably) for all the graphics stuff10:47
jothamstarmaps and the battleviewer10:47
jothamso i'm sick again, and it's horrible10:47
* jotham gives up at life10:48
jothamjust figured out how to control VLC via my bluetooth cell, so now my laptop has a movie remote :p10:48
mithrojotham: any luck?10:53
jothamno patch, i'm sick again10:53
jothamit's pretty crap10:53
jothamanyway check what i said about amanith10:53
mithrojotham: probably10:54
* jotham shrugs10:54
dmpaytonjotham: the 3d clients that clayasaurus can use (Ogre or Panda) support both OpenGL and DirectX10:54
jothami can only see these things from a functionality pov, not a license point of view etc10:54
dmpaytonAs for the web client...opengl isn't really an option10:54
jothamyeah i know ogre 3D10:55
jothamdon't know panda10:55
jothamyeah googled it =)10:55
dmpaytondeveloped by Disney, now maintained by CMU.10:56
jothamheh, i used to live at cmu10:56
jothampanda looks cool10:57
dmpaytonOgre is more powerfull, but Panda would be easier from a python perspective, as it was developed specifically to use with Python10:57
jothamwould be nice to see a google maps hack something like frappr (but not as apparently retarded) that allowed you to keep groups like frappr but it showed a clock with a label over each persons location, so at a glance you could see the time for every member of your group10:59
jothamhow would the web client interface with the server11:00
jothamsome kind of interface program?11:01
jothamor just an http / cgi component to the server?11:01
dmpaytonjotham: http://www.mapwow.com <--I wanted to do something like this...this is the only implementation of Google Maps I've seen where the actual map is customized11:01
dmpaytonjotham: the web client would make AJAX calls to the server11:02
jothamwhoa i haven't played wow in over a year, that brings it all back11:03
dmpaytonas for the Google Maps thing, mithro said he wanted something more open since Google Maps isn't technically open source11:03
dmpaytonyeah..I started playing wow in december11:03
jothami don't know what mithro has to do with the google maps thing i mentioned :p11:03
jothami specifically want for myself a time tracking tool using the google maps thing and frappr style groups11:03
jothamjust wondered if you guys had seen such a thing11:04
dmpaytonAh... I was going to use the Google Maps API to create the star map for the web client, similarly how that place used the API to create a WoW map.11:04
dmpaytonbut Mithro dind't care too much for that idea, so I've had to come up with soemthing else11:05
jothamyeah it wouldn't be too hard to recreate their product, just a shame you'd have to recreate it =)11:05
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dmpaytonhello tuna11:05
jothamok anyway i'm going to go be sick again and sleep11:05
dmpaytonfeel better, jotham.11:06
JLPmorning all11:49
* JLP goes to read IRC backlogs11:49
dmpayton'llo JLP11:51
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mithrodaxxar: ping?12:10
mithro~seen daxxar12:10
tpbmithro: daxxar was last seen in #tp 0 seconds ago: <daxxar> pong.12:10
mithrodaxxar: just wondering how your SoC application(s) are going12:11
daxxarNone done yet. I've translated my CV (however irrelevant) to english, and started on one application. Bit busy with school, but hoping to finish the two I have in mind today. :)12:12
mithrodaxxar: okay cool12:16
dmpaytonmithro: the more I think about this project, the more I worry that there won't be enough time to impliment all of the features needed. Would it be alright if I listed designs as "to be implimented if there is time" for the soc app?12:35
dmpaytonThat's not to say if I dont get it done for soc then it won't get done at all...Just to be completed after soc.12:36
dmpaytonit's mroe of a precaution to make sure I can meet my soc goals in the allotted time.12:36
dmpaytonmore even12:36
mithrodmpayton: it's okay12:36
mithrobut justify it12:36
daxxarwhat're you propsing to do, dmpayton? =)12:40
dmpaytondaxxar: web client12:43
daxxarnot sure yet, it's all so tempting ;)12:43
dmpaytondaxxar: llnz mentioned something earlier about the lack of c++ projects. ;)12:52
daxxaryou mean proposals or ideas?12:53
daxxaryeah, i was thinking of submitting my application for something using c++. :)12:53
daxxarsome of the server work, per'aps.12:54
mithrodaxxar: was it you who was intrested in the RFTS ruleset?12:54
dmpaytoni'm doing the web client in python, clayasaurus is looking at a 3d client in python... Not sure what else there is.12:54
dmpaytonNope. I'm Web Client12:54
dmpaytonI have no experience in C++, so... That's a bit outta my league.12:55
daxxarno, i didn't see that idea before just now, mithro12:56
daxxaranyways, brb.12:57
dmpayton<mithro> daxxar: was it you who was intrested in the RFTS ruleset? <---errr... For some reason I thought it was daxxar who was asking me that question. uess it just shows how much I need sleep right now...12:58
mithrodmpayton: i think that shows the need for sleep :)12:58
dmpaytonwell, at 6am, what do yuo expect? :)12:58
dmpaytonWhen I finish revising my app, I'm going to bed.12:59
dmpaytonmithro: you ever used Python as a CGI on the web server?13:04
mithrodmpayton: no, the IRC search is a python CGI script13:05
dmpaytonMy host is having issues with python...13:06
mithrodmpayton: :/ what is happening?13:07
dmpaytonmy host supports python using both CGI and FastCGI13:07
dmpaytonWhen I run the script as CGI, I get a 500 error13:07
dmpayton"Premature end of script headers: <path>/soc/code.py"13:08
dmpaytonwhen I run as FastCGI, the browser hangs there...says it's loading, but nothing ever loads.13:08
mithroi recommend just using CGI to start with13:09
mithromake sure you are outputing the correct newlines13:09
dmpaytonAgree'd, just thought I'd give it a try with fcgi13:09
dmpaytonI don't think it's an error with my script, though13:10
mithrotest it locally?13:10
dmpayton1) it works fine locally13:10
dmpayton2) another user posted in the forums with the same issues (same 500 error on cgi)13:11
mithrodmpayton: :/13:11
tpb<http://ln-s.net/K3C> (at forums.asmallorange.com)13:11
dmpaytonwb daxxar13:15
daxxarhow many applications have you gotten thus far, mithro?13:16
daxxarguessing kinda sparse, i hear the norm is a flood right before deadline :p13:16
mithrodaxxar: 513:16
dmpaytonmithro: My app is updated.13:17
mithrodmpayton: will look at in a minute13:17
dmpaytonMy bed is sitting there...staring at me...and it's looking sexier and sexier by the minute...13:19
dmpaytonI'm going to bed.13:19
mithrodmpayton: i would recommend it13:19
dmpaytonGnight...or morning...or whatever13:20
daxxarReferring to your bed as "sexy" is a sure sign, but exactly of what I don't know. :O13:21
mithrodaxxar: sleep deprevation13:22
daxxarYeah, most likely. ;-)13:25
daxxarIs it just me, or are the persistence-implementation ideas kinda .. small?13:25
* daxxar takes a closer look on the current module13:25
mithrodaxxar: they are a bit small - I would expect a student to have some extra ideas on what to do13:30
daxxarAccording to your sloc-breakdown, tpserver-cpp is ~30% shellscript. :p13:35
* daxxar reads some documentation13:36
mithrodaxxar: configure and stuff :)13:37
mithrothe ANSI C stuff is the libltdl loader13:38
daxxarah, yep. =)13:40
daxxardynamic library loader. :)13:40
mithrowe have yet to figure out how to get sloc to ignore a directory13:41
mithroanyway I must head to bed13:52
daxxaryou seem to have very nicely structured documentation (atleast for the broader concepts), assuming it's reliable. :-)13:55
mithrodaxxar: i'm really going now - yes some of the documentation is pretty good - others not-so-good :)14:00
daxxarmithro: good night :)14:01
daxxarhmm. decisions, decisions.14:11
daxxarnot certain wether i should propose a 3d client written in c++, or server code for tpserver-cpp.14:12
daxxarand if i go for code for tpserver-cpp, wether to implement research or a ruleset, or perhaps even protocol compliance tests. :)14:13
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JLPdaxxar: just send in a couple of them, the ones that you think will bring you the most joy when working on them14:41
daxxarJLP: Can I submit multiple applications to a single project? :o14:44
daxxarI haven't written any 3d-code in .. years (?), so it's kinda tempting.14:44
JLPyou mean multiple applicatons for Thousand Parsec? if so, then yes14:45
daxxaryeah, for TP. does the gsoc webform support that? someone claimed only the most recent application was sent to the mentors..14:45
JLPhm, i think it should support this14:46
daxxarI *think* I'll submit one about a 3d client in c++, and one about a tpserver-cpp ruleset, but I'll have to research the ruleset-part a bit more.14:46
JLPgreat, can't wait for them :)14:46
daxxarHopefully I'll get 'em done today, but it seems I have some school-stuff to take care of first. :)14:51
daxxarAh, finally, time to head home. Catch you later. :)15:01
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cherezhmm, that's odd15:25
cherezwx.__version__ doesn't exist15:25
cherezoh well, I know my version is recent enough, so I could just take that test out of the client15:47
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cherezthe Python server move code is really weird...16:21
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daxxarokok, writing time. :-)18:42
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clayasaurusapplication updated, again :)19:43
clayasaurusjust need to fix one small formatting error.. grr19:44
daxxarAh, you're the python 3d guy? :)19:45
clayasaurusnm I can't, ah well19:45
clayasaurusyup :-P19:45
daxxarI'm your arch-nemesis, the c++ 3d guy.19:45
clayasaurushehe, umm19:45
clayasaurusdid you submit an app?19:46
clayasaurususing C++ for ogre 3d?19:46
daxxarJust about to, putting the finishing touches on it.19:46
daxxarNaw, I was planning on just using OGL/SDL19:46
* clayasaurus is confused19:46
daxxarWhat about?19:47
clayasaurusyou are doing an app using raw OpenGL and SDL 3D thousand parsec client?19:47
clayasaurusor you are using a rendering engine19:47
daxxarI'm about to submit an application, proposing a raw OpenGL/SDL TP client, yes. :)19:47
clayasaurushrm... alright. goodluck with that19:47
clayasaurusvector like graphics style perhaps? or will you write your own scenegraph + model loader + GUI system19:48
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* dmpayton yawns19:49
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clayasaurusmorning, though it is afternoon for me19:50
daxxarclayasaurus: the latter, at least to an extent. I'm not certain how much use reinventing the wheel on something as typical as a model loader would be. ;-)19:50
daxxarclayasaurus: The reason I'm not proposing to use a specific framework is my lack of experience with any of them.19:51
daxxarBut when you mention it, perhaps I should look into OGRE. I keep hearing good things about it. ;-p19:51
clayasaurusmithro: were you able to see the new 'schedule' I picked for myself?19:54
dmpaytonclayasaurus: technically, it's afternoon for me aswell.19:56
clayasaurusah, thought you were in a different time-zone19:57
dmpayton1pm here. :)20:00
clayasaurus3PM for me20:00
dmpaytonAlright, I must be off. Work will be angry if I don't come in today20:04
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cherezI'm going to need some serious stimulants to make it through this week20:37
daxxarnash, JLP: submitted an application. =)21:01
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* nash is back22:12
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* dmpayton putzes around at work22:24
nashI've just arrived- no time for putzing yet22:28
dmpaytonnash, I updated my app, if you wanna take a look.22:29
nashdmpayton: Shall do shortly22:30
daxxardmpayton: I got mine finished \o/22:32
dmpaytondaxxar: Awesome, what project? 3D in c++?22:33
daxxardmpayton: Yeah. A comment by clayasaurus made me reconsider it, and I delved into a bit of research about Ogre3d (3d), which led to CEGUI (2d, menus etc), which led to OIS (input). ;-)22:35
dmpaytondaxxar: Haha, nice. Can't wait to see what happens. :)22:53
daxxarSame here, and good luck with your application. :-)22:54
daxxarDo you have any technical keywords on your implementation for me? :)22:54
dmpaytondaxxar: What do you mean?23:07
daxxarWell, your proposal, I know it's a web app, but how did you present it? What're the technical pieces that'll make it go around?23:08
dmpaytonBasically.. Lots of AJAX.. Gonna use the jQuery library for front-end JS and web.py to handle the back-end.23:10
daxxarOk :)23:11
dmpayton I also discussed a bit about possible implementations of the star map (using JS to dynamically build the star map by placing star images in an iframe vs. using Python to dynamically build images)23:11
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dmpaytonbasically... JS = star images placed in an iframe with a neat space background, Python = star images + space background as the same image23:12
dmpaytonI left the issue open, I'll study the pros and cons of each in the coming weeks23:13
dmpaytonThat's about as technical as I got23:13
dmpaytonas the star map seems to be the most difficult part for the web client23:13
daxxariframes? what about e.g. absolutely positioned divs?23:13
dmpaytonWould work, except that all objects in the game (ie. stars, planets, ships) also need to be absolutely aligned, which then places them outside the div23:14
dmpaytonIn some experiments, an iframe seemed to be the best way to go.23:14
daxxarOkay, I have no doubts. I hope your application gets accepted. :-)23:15
dmpaytondaxxar: How many other apps are you submitting?23:18
daxxarNot certain yet. I've got one other project/idea that I wanted to apply for, and perhaps another project at TP. But the 3d client thing really got my engine running. :)23:19
daxxarand you?23:19
dmpaytononly one project for TP, and another for Creative Commons23:22
clayasaurusonly 4 more days :o23:22
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dmpayton'llo clayasaurus and mithro.23:23
dmpaytonmithro: updated my app. :)23:24
daxxarey claya, mith. :-)23:24
mithrohello dmpayton23:25
dmpaytonDeadline's been extended to March 2623:26
mithroit has?23:26
clayasauruswhere did you find that out, dmpayton ?23:26
dmpaytonlh just annoucned it in #summer-discuss. Gonna make an official blog about it.23:28
mithrodmpayton: where did you find this info?23:28
dmpaytonmithro: <lh> changign to March 26 <dmpayton> lh: Student deadline is extended to March 26? <lh>dmpayton: yeppers23:30
mithrodmpayton: okay cool23:34
mithromust have just missed that23:34
* nash waves to mithro23:40
t0ddhey nash23:48
nashHow is life>23:48
nashBTW: I've commented on a few of the proposals again.. As usaul I've been fairly harsh - so don't take it personally23:49
* daxxar runs crying out of the channel23:50
daxxarHm, perhaps I should check if I've got a comment first.23:50
nashExcellent 1 down...23:50
nashd'oh.. he is still her23:50
nashdaxxar: I haven't commented on yours yet...23:51
daxxarPhew. I'm untouched by the horrible Comment of Doom. \o/23:51
nashPartially done23:51
daxxarLooking forward to it. ;)23:51
dmpaytonnash: You're so mean! Why can't I just stamp the client with "Works On My Machine" and call it a day? :'(23:51
nashdmpayton: Sure... you'll need to give me your machine however...23:53
t0ddoh, life is good23:56
t0ddI just got up from a nap since I had to attend a review session early this morning and consequently didnt get much sleep because of it23:56
dmpaytont0dd: I want a nap. Went to bed at 6:30am lastnight (this morning?) to get up at 10 to come to work. :(23:57
dmpaytonWell.. granted, I slept in till 12 or so.23:57
dmpaytonStill not fun, however23:57
mithroVincent Verhoeven == daxxar?23:58
daxxarNo, that's not me.23:58
daxxarI'm Jørgen Tjernø. :)23:58
dmpaytondaxxar: Your name always reminds me of the game Daxxter and Jack.23:59
daxxarNever heard that one before. :p23:59

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