Wednesday, 2007-01-24

*** tpb has joined #tp00:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o tpb00:00
*** tuna-fish- has quit IRC03:08
mithronash: ping?04:58
mithro~tpb seen nash04:58
tpbI don't have a clue, mithro.04:58
nashmithro: Yo04:59
mithrohey nash04:59
mithrojust replied to your email04:59
nashI saw - want replies here or on list?05:00
mithronash: list is generally better05:01
nashFor the record however, I do think you guys actually have a hell of a lot more on the website then most other projects...05:01
mithrobtw if you have time could you read the "[tp-devel] An idea about new web site structure"  thread?05:02
tpb<> (at
* nash shall05:05
nashmithro: No real comments - looks reasonable.  Unfortunately websites are more in the implementation then the design.05:14
mithrodo you think it would help at all?05:16
nashPossibly.  However it may hinder in the transition time.  It takes a long time to redesign and update websites, and things tend to get unmaintained during the transition.  I think it would be better to improve what is there.05:17
mithronash: well it's more a reorg then a change - would be done in 1 weekend when i get time05:18
nashBut you could do a lot of other stuff in that weekend correct?05:19
nashIf you have a web monkey on the team - great.  But it's a waste of time for your code and other monkeys.05:19
mithronash: well my time is best spent getting people to join the project05:20
nashGet things to a point for a one-click download and install first - sod the other stuff, then worry about the other things05:22
nashYou don't want to get people interested, try it, get annoyed and never come back.05:22
mithrowell I have to admit it's loads easier under Mac and Linux05:33
* nash is a linux user... 05:33
mithrojust a normal download and run program05:33
* nash would hate to try and do as a win32 user...05:34
nashmithro: Enjoy ;-)05:54
mithronash: so why did you start with the darcs versions? :P05:56
nashmithro: Multiple reasons...05:57
nasha) I'm (allegedly) a professional developer... this should be easy...05:58
nashb) I expect I will want to get newer versions - not just wait for releases05:58
nashI generally follow a rule if apt-get doesn't work, I want the revision control version05:58
nashc) I was thinking I may want to fiddle and send upstream05:59
*** tpb has joined #tp06:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o tpb06:00
mithroInstall, using YUM, apt-get, or other06:01
mithro* Python06:01
mithro* wxPython 2.606:01
mithro* PIL06:01
mithro* Numeric or NumArray06:01
mithromkdir tp06:01
mithrocd tp06:01
mithrodarcs get --partial
tpb<> (at
mithrodarcs get --partial
tpb<> (at
mithrodarcs get --partial
tpb<> (at
mithrodarcs get --partial
tpb<> (at
mithrocd scratchpad06:02
mithrosh setup.sh06:02
mithrocd ..06:02
mithrocd tpclient-pywx06:02
mithrocould you follow those instructions and tell me if it works?06:02
nashI don't have a clean setup anymore...06:02
mithrohrm... o well06:02
mithrothat should get you a tpclient-pywx devel enviroment06:03
nashPut them in an email, and I'll try it on my wife's computer.06:03
nashI assume it should work fine on amd64?06:03
nashI can give you the result either tomorrow or Friday06:04
nashIs that okay?06:04
nash:-) Thanks06:04
mithronash: when the client starts up it should include which should die with a sane error message06:06
mithroo btw06:07
tpbTitle: Thousand Parsec : Metaserver Server Listing (at
nashBTW: What is the licencing on the TP logo?06:09
mithroI'm going to intergrate into the website sometime soon06:09
mithronash: GPL, but it's an "unregistered trademark" in Australia and New Zealand06:10
nashSo is it GPL or are you claiming a trademark on it?06:10
mithroGPL == copyright law != trademark law06:11
mithrobasically you are free to modify it and use it as normal GPL06:12
mithrohowever it is covered by a trademark in Australia/New Zealand so you can't use it to advertise "as" Thousand Parsec.06:13
mithrokind of similar to the Firefox system (however Australia trademark law is a bit different to the US one)06:15
mithrolaymen terms, If using it regards to Thousand Parsec - ask, otherwise do what you want06:16
nashYes, but the trademark restricts the usage (same as a patent), which means it is "further restriction" thus meaning it is not under a GPL as written.06:18
nashI didn't think the firefox logo for instance was under GPL06:19
mithronash: well, the GPL doesn't really deal well with trademark/patent stuff06:20
mithrospecially where the distributor and trademark/patenter are different people06:21
nashQuite the opposite, the GPL is designed that any futher restrictions from any source are forbidden.06:21
nashThis intentionally includes patents and trademarks06:21
mithronash: say for example I patent "xyz", if you produce code which is covered by patent "xyz" what happens?06:22
nashHence the recent spats over GPLv3, the mozilla logos
tpb<> (at
nashI'm in shit.  However you miss the point.06:22
nashIf you distribute "xyz" under GPL, then try to nab me for the patent, I turn around and tell you to sod off I have a licence.06:23
nashFor the patent.06:23
nashBecause if _you_ distributed it under GPL - you are licencing it for me to use.06:23
mithronash: true (althought untested)06:23
mithronash: but it's trademarked by MITHIS, and not redistrbuted by MITHIS06:24
nashOkay - so question 1: Who owns the copyright?06:25
mithrothe copyright is owned by "zzorn" a guy in Finland06:25
nashExcellent, what licence does he distribute it under?06:26
mithrodual license, GPL + unexclusive rights to MITHIS06:27
nashSo the file on website is being distrubited by?06:28
mithroThousand Parsec06:28
nashIs that a legal entity?06:29
mithrodepends on which Lawyer you talk to06:29
nashDoes it have an address, an ABN or a birth certificate?06:29
mithrono, but Australian Law has some case law to deal with collaberating groups of people06:31
mithrobut it's very ad-hoc06:31
mithronash: but anyway, why do you care?06:31
nashWell two reasons: a) GPL, but trademarked doesn't make sense to me06:32
nashb) I wanted to include it in teh splash screen for my client/AI06:33
mithronash: Copyright Law and trademark law is horrible anyway06:33
mithrob) Feel free to include it in your splash screen06:33
mithroc) or use it in anyway you see fit with a client which connects to thousand parsec servers06:35
mithrod) If it becomes a problem will it effect functionality of your software at all if you have to remove it?06:36
nashNo, but it means I may need to recompile.  And if it is under different terms I won't redistribute.06:36
nashThe easiest thing to do is not use it all06:37
mithronash: e) if you belive that your interpretation of  the GPL is correct, then there may be a possibility it is06:38
mithros/may be/may be a strong/06:39
mithroI prefer to avoid licensing stuff, I try to keep everything GPL or LGPL06:40
mithrobut after discussion with a lawyer I was told that I should put that line on the website06:41
mithroyou could always do something like the tpclient-pywx splash?06:43
mithroanyway, I wish we could just use Kathy Seirra's terms "be nice" :P06:45
nashI'll agree with most of that.06:45
mithroanyway there are more important things to do, like code :P06:46
nashHowever my general rule is if there is a disagreement, I'll take the conservative route.  Since you have said there may be trademark issues, I'll avoid teh trademark06:46
nashSo what is the state of the two games then?06:47
nashminisec and minsec++?06:47
mithroMiniSec is completely implimented tpserver-py and tpserver-cpp06:47
mithroMTSec is semi-implimented in tpserver-cpp06:47
mithrobtw did you end up getting tpclient-pywx-dev working?06:50
mithroor just tpclient-pywx?06:50
* nash is connecting with his own client... 06:51
nashBUt only tried pywx, not -dev06:51
mithro-dev is a lot cooler :P06:51
nashI'll give it a look this weekend06:52
nashOut of curiousity what do the ID strings look like for the clients06:52
mithrohrm, not sure :P06:53
nashokay ;-)06:53
* nash looks at differences between MTSec and minisec06:53
nashWhere does the "-sec" come from?06:54
mithrotpclient-pywx/%s.%s.%s libtpclient-py/%s.%s.%s libtpproto-py/%s.%s.%s06:55
mithrothats the tpclient-pywx one06:55
nashAhh... one thing I'm not clear on in MTSec -are there unlim missiles on the ship, or is the ammo used?06:56
mithronash: yet to be decided :P06:57
mithroMTSec never really got fully specced06:58
nashExplains why it isn't clear in teh doco then ;-)06:58
nashIs there another game to replace it?06:58
mithronot at the moment06:58
mithroI think we'll end up implimenting a version of MTSec06:58
mithrobut at the moment I'm just trying to make the client easier to develop06:59
mithroi recently converted to xrc descriptions for the windows which has been really nice06:59
mithroand the new AUI should make it work nicer for many people07:01
mithroouch MTSec was last updated in 2004 :/07:01
mithroI'm working towards having something which a person can download and play with everything locally07:03
nashHence the AI comp?07:03
* nash starts to understand07:04
mithrowe need something for players to play against07:04
nashSilly question however: If minisec is so simple, is it worth the bother?07:04
* nash can't really see any depth to the game07:04
mithronash: well it exercises a large porition of the background technology07:05
nashObviously exercises what you have got - but does it really exercise lots of what you will need?07:06
mithroonce MiniSec works, making much more complicated games should be easy07:06
nashI thought minisec was done?07:06
mithronash: it is "done", but it's highlighted problems like hard to install clients, etc07:06
mithrocrappy UI interaction in tpclient-pywx07:07
mithronot enough testers to actually play a game07:07
nashWould it be better to dive on in and keep building however?07:07
mithrowell, until we fix the other problems, making more complicated games will on exacibate the problem - plus we havn't had the time to impliment it07:08
mithrothere have only been two real developers for the 4-5 years TP has been about07:09
nashMy point being things get fixed quicker the more broken they are.  Polish is never complete.07:09
mithronash: I agree, but we really need more developers07:09
mithro(and users)07:10
mithrohopefully the AI comp will give us a little bit of publicity and attract developers07:12
mithrowe are open to suggestions07:13
nashStart working on getting the server to do all of mtsec.  Don't worry about warts.07:14
nashMake it more of a fun game.07:15
nashThe little things to do p[age is good... however you may want to add more items which aren't programming related (which they mostly are unfortunately)07:18
nashHaving said that... Yeah the AI comp is a good idea ;-)07:20
mithrohopefully we will get a few extendable entries07:21
nashWell I'm hoping for at least one...07:23
nashback in a minute07:23
nashIn protocol 3... What are the commands which aren't either S2C or C2S?07:33
nashAnyway - need to bail... drinkies to do.07:43
nashTalk to you later.07:43
*** nash has quit IRC07:43
*** llnz has joined #tp08:13
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (8 files):09:02
CIA-11tp: Non-blocking safe sends in PlayerTcpConnection:09:02
CIA-11tp:  Just need to make sure that PlayerHttpConnection is send non-blocking safe, and then09:02
CIA-11tp:  will enable non-blocking sockets for tp and http.09:02
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (playerconnection.cpp playerconnection.cpp): Set the default version in PlayerConnection09:52
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (18 files):10:00
CIA-11tp: All writes in tp and http are now non-blocking safe, and buffer clearning fix:10:00
CIA-11tp:  Fixed issues with ordering of buffer clearning when a TP protocol version is10:00
CIA-11tp:  detected, but can't tell what version. Clears the buffer before sending "fail, try10:00
CIA-11tp:  lower version" frame.10:00
CIA-11tp:  Close now doesn't actually close if there is a frame in the sendqueue.10:00
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/playertcpconn.cpp : No need to check if sendqueue is empty, close does it for us10:05
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (playertcpconn.cpp playertcpconn.cpp):10:19
CIA-11tp: Made tp and http player connections non-blocking:10:19
CIA-11tp:  If you have any trouble with tp or http, please let me know, preferably with tpserver-cpp logs10:19
CIA-11tp:  and libtpproto-py debug output, or tcpdump log.10:19
CIA-11tp:  Making these two player connection types makes the server immune to Denial of Service attacks10:19
CIA-11tp:  at the network buffer level from those two connection types.10:19
llnzmithro: ping? :-)10:19
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (avahi.cpp avahi.cpp avahi.cpp):10:49
CIA-11tp: Improve avahi dns-sd publishing:10:49
CIA-11tp:  By using a AvahiStringList, I can add the optional fields if they are available.10:49
CIA-11tp:  Also added code to remove tphttp and tphttps services unless they are the only ones,10:49
CIA-11tp:  as on a local network, there is no need to publish them.10:49
*** tuna-fish- has joined #tp11:04
llnzhi tuna-fish-11:04
*** _JLP_ has joined #tp11:06
*** JLP has quit IRC11:06
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/ (21 files in 2 dirs):11:33
CIA-11tp: Set some sensible defaults if no command line parameters are given:11:33
CIA-11tp:  Turns the console logging on, and the logging level to Info and higher, so these11:33
CIA-11tp:  will have to be overridden by the default config file if it is used.11:33
*** _JLP_ is now known as JLP11:45
JLPgood morning/evening all11:45
llnzhi JLP11:46
llnzunpull, unrecord and obliterate don't work on partial repos11:52
* llnz builds tpserver-cpp from scratch from fresh get12:03
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/modules/games/mtsec/mtsec.cpp :12:09
CIA-11tp: Removed includes for non-existant files in MTSec:12:09
CIA-11tp:  Must have missed those when removing the ordertype persistence classes.12:09
CIA-11tp: Lee Begg <[email protected]> * tpserver-cpp/tpserver/ (settings.cpp settings.cpp):12:11
CIA-11tp: Set some sensible defaults if no command line parameters are given:12:11
CIA-11tp:  Turns the console logging on, and the logging level to Info and higher, so these12:11
CIA-11tp:  will have to be overridden by the default config file if it is used.12:11
llnzahhh... that's better12:11
*** _JLP_ has joined #tp12:28
mithrollnz: pong?12:32
mithro41 commit messages?12:33
*** JLP has quit IRC12:33
llnzsorry about that, some are repeats12:33
llnzthere is a message on tp-cvs that outlines what i did12:34
llnzand then i reused the name again12:34
llnzbut there were 8 new patches tonight12:35
mithroahh same problem i had the othernight?12:35
llnzyeah, but i actually made it12:36
llnzi pushed a bad patch, removed it from, then created a new one with the same name12:36
llnzit shouldn't happen again12:37
mithrohrm, the script should still handle it a bit better12:38
llnzyou can fix it if you want12:38
llnzit's in perl12:39
mithroyou going to reply to "[tp-devel] Determining Protocol Version" at all?12:39
llnzmaybe, i did reply to an earlier one12:40
llnzactually, I will12:40
*** _JLP_ is now known as JLP12:41
JLP /msg NickServ IDENTIFY cierpn8112:42
mithroJLP: opps :P12:43
JLPyeah, bloody space12:43
mithroJLP: good that you changed it12:47
mithro[23:48] >nickserv< ghost jlp cierpn8112:47
mithro[23:48] -NickServ- Password Incorrect12:47
mithroJLP: i posted a password to a mailing list the other day :P12:48
JLPyeah, it happens so quickly, the OS should have the list of passwords and warn you everytime you try to post it somewhere :)12:49
mithrowelp, i'm heading to bed12:55
JLPmithro: good night12:56
JLPi also have to go, a lot of snow to showel off13:04
* llnz is just going to finish this email then go to bed13:05
*** tuna-fish- has quit IRC13:26
* llnz wanders off13:35
llnzlater all13:35
*** llnz has quit IRC13:36
*** zipola has quit IRC14:17
*** Demitar_ has quit IRC15:41
*** tuna-fish- has joined #tp15:53
*** zipola has joined #tp16:45
*** zipola has quit IRC22:11
*** mithro has quit IRC22:12
*** JLP has quit IRC22:17
*** JLP has joined #tp22:22
*** nash has joined #tp23:22

Generated by 2.5 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!