Thursday, 2014-03-13

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shikherI assume that all of data is loaded onto list at once in this case, for it to take 2 minutes?00:01
madrazrshikher: correct, I would rephrase "continuous HTTP requests" to "multiple AJAX requests"00:01
madrazr"multiple XHRs"00:01
madrazrshikher: define once?00:01
shikherno paging00:01
madrazrshikher: that is correct then00:01
shikhery not do paging for tht list?00:02
madrazrshikher: there is a subtle distinction here00:02
madrazrshikher: when you say paging what are you thinking about?00:02
madrazrshikher: displaying the data in different pages00:02
madrazrshikher: or fetching the pages on demand?00:03
madrazrshikher: we already do the former00:03
shikherfetching a certain amount of data out of the total all query00:03
madrazrshikher: latter is quite tricky because we don't have server side filtering and multi-column sorting00:03
shikheroh by paging till now I was thinking u were fetching pages on demand00:04
shikhermadrazr: here is my solution. please tell me the fault, if any00:05
shikherwe separate filtering completely from lists00:06
shikherand do  server side filtering00:06
shikherif lets say user opens a page with lists00:07
shikherwe only fetch first watsoever lets say 150 entities and load it00:07
shikherhowever we keep making XHR's to get all the other data.00:08
shikherand we give priority to the page at which the user is on so that data is loaded first00:08
shikherwe will not activate filtering until all data is not loaded in the background00:09
shikheronce its loaded we activate the filtering option00:09
shikherthis way user doesn't wait for entities to load and can see whatever he wants to see00:10
shikheronly the filter will not be available until we have all the data, this way we don't need server side filtering either00:11
shikherAs for sorting we can do it page by page when we fetch pages by demand00:11
madrazrshikher: I am not entirely sure if I understand everything you said00:16
madrazrbut we can still proceed I guess00:16
madrazron the way we will figure out00:16
shikhermadrazr:  yes please ask00:16
madrazrfirst of all, let's say you give me a page with 50 entries00:16
madrazrI wait until you give me 50 entries00:17
madrazrsince you have blocked filtering now I have no way other than waiting00:17
madrazrnow I am a sophisticated/power user like Carol00:17
madrazrand I know exactly what row of data I want00:17
madrazrI am willing to even wait for the first 50 entries to load00:17
madrazrsaying "Ok whatever"00:18
shikhernote: filtering would not be available to you until all the data is loaded anyway, in the current case right?00:18
madrazrthen what problem is it solving?00:18
madrazrwe do this already I told you00:18
madrazrjust that you made the user experience even worse by not letting me type in the filter box until you fetch all the data00:19
shikherwell u said u dont fetch pages on demand00:19
madrazrshikher: correct00:19
madrazrand your new solution is not fetching either?00:19
shikherthat means u wait for all data to load before u render the list?00:19
madrazrwe don't00:19
madrazrthat is why we call it AJAX00:19
madrazrshikher: we render the batches as they arrive00:20
madrazrshikher: that's why you keep seeing the order changing until all the list loads00:20
madrazr*until the entire list loads00:21
shikherand wat if someone want to go to page 12, u keep showing loading until data arrives00:21
madrazrshikher: when we do paging, we fetch all the data00:21
madrazrbut we don't render them all00:21
madrazrwe render only the first page00:21
madrazrshikher: correct00:21
madrazrthat's correct00:21
madrazrbecause there is no page 12 until we have all the data00:21
madrazrbecause we have not sorted it yet00:21
madrazrand we cannot sort until all the data arrives00:22
madrazrand until we sort we do not know what is page 1200:22
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madrazrit is a classical problem in Computer Science00:22
madrazrhow do you sort or tell what a section of sorted data is before all the data arrives?00:22
madrazrshikher: if you solve that problem, Knuth is going to give you a Ph.D. likely :P00:23
shikheris it not possible to make a query that we tell the datastore to sort data in this way and send this part of that data only00:24
madrazrshikher: this is exactly what I have been telling you from an hour now?00:25
madrazrserver side sorting, server side sorting and server side sorting!00:25
shikhermadrazr: right u are.00:26
madrazrshikher: Oh btw, one detail I might have missed here which is essential for this discussion00:26
madrazrshikher: you can't run arbitrary sorts and filters in a datastore query00:27
madrazrshikher: you will need an index for every sort or filtering00:27
madrazrshikher: and if the user sends an arbitrary sort request for which we don't have an index00:28
madrazrApp Engine throws a DatastoreNeedIndexException on the query00:29
madrazrshikher: what about indexes?00:29
madrazrshikher: how much of database internals do you know? I can help you with indexes :)00:29
madrazrDatabase and Big Data is my research area :D00:29
madrazrdon't shy away if you have database questions, I can give you all the details you may ever want00:30
madrazrand you may ever NOT want :P00:30
shikhermadrazr: cool ! I was afraid to ask and was going through the docs00:30
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shikherfrom previous encounters about how i should use my favourtie search engine. :D00:31
madrazrshikher: no need to be afraid to ask questions. We do expect students to do some home work00:31
madrazrat least basic web search00:31
madrazrreading docs00:31
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madrazrbut if you have questions for which you don't find the answer easily through search/docs00:31
madrazryou shouldn't be wasting time and just ask us00:31
madrazrworst comes to worst we will give you the link the right docs page00:32
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shikherwell i havent looked at the docs for indexing and not sure what it is completely. so i would go through it and then come to u for any unanswered questions00:32
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madrazr*you shouldn't be wasting time and you should just ask us (clarifying :) )00:32
madrazrshikher: sure00:32
madrazrbut basically I can give you a simple overview00:33
shikherplease tht would be great00:33
madrazrwhich may help you to understand indexes00:33
madrazrso all the data is stored as bits in the disk right00:33
madrazrone very popular and most widely used software abstraction for handling this data is through files00:34
madrazryou logically organize these stored bits into iles00:34
madrazrso databases use this file abstraction to store the data00:34
madrazron disk00:34
madrazrfor example MySQL in the background manages its own files to store all the data you insert into a MySQL database00:35
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madrazrpopularly accepted or well established convention in database world is to store each record (also called as row) in a line in the file00:36
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madrazrshikher: makes sense so far?00:36
madrazreach record/row in a database table is stored as a line00:36
shikheryes I have taken OS course00:36
madrazrOk cool00:37
madrazrshikher: now you know that files are sequential00:37
madrazrshikher: if you want to access a particular line of the file, you need the byte offset of that position in the file00:37
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madrazrso if you want to access a particular row in the database you need the byte offset of that particular row in the file00:38
madrazrnow let's say you have a database table with just these columns00:38
madrazr| Key | Firstname |  Lastname | Age |00:38
madrazrnow user gives a database query which says get me the record of a person whose last name is C.S.00:39
madrazrshikher: now how should a database know at what byte offset in the User table's file does the row corresponding to the person with last name C.S. exist?00:40
madrazrshikher: you are still with me? :P00:41
shikherit maintains an index?00:41
madrazrshikher: or did I make you sleep already :P00:41
madrazrshikher: alright you seem to be here :P00:41
madrazrshikher: exactly00:42
madrazrthis is where index comes into picture00:42
madrazrshikher: the database maintains a separate file called an index file00:42
madrazrwhere it stores this exact information00:42
shikheralphabetical index?00:42
madrazrshikher: there are several ways of implementing an index00:42
madrazralphabetical is a possibility yes00:42
madrazrshikher: people also implement sophisticated hashing techniques etc00:43
madrazrshikher: and there are several datastructures to manage the index itself00:43
madrazrlet's take the simplest one, the one you said00:43
madrazrthe database creates an index where the first column is the last name00:44
madrazrand the first column is sorted alphabetically00:44
madrazrand the second column is the list of all the rows' byte offsets who have that same last name00:44
madrazr*byte offsets which have the same last name00:45
madrazrit is like a mapping00:45
madrazrthis is exactly an index00:45
madrazrand this particular index is called an inverted index00:45
madrazrshikher: as clear as mud? :)00:45
shikherfor every column in a table there is an index, or does it get finer?00:45
shikhercrystal, sir.00:46
madrazrshikher: it depends on the database technology used00:46
madrazrthere can be an index for every column00:46
madrazrthere can be an index for combinations of columns00:46
madrazralso I intentionally chose MySQL as an example00:46
madrazrsadly at Google our problem is not that simple00:46
madrazrhow awesome would it be if we could store all the data in one single machine? :D :D00:47
madrazras the joke goes00:47
madrazr"At Google, you get paged at 2AM in the night waking up everybody at your home. And you look at your pager to see what the page is and it keeps showing high alert that your cluster has only 2 petabytes of storage remaining and it is running out of space fast. You need to take action now, right now!"00:48
madrazr2 petabytes is a joke at Google00:48
madrazrApp Engine datastore itself is implemented on Bigtable00:49
madrazr(well now Megastore)00:49
madrazrand Bigtable indexes are more complicated than what I explained00:49
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madrazrbecause it has to be distributed across the cluster00:49
shikheri got tht frm the joke00:50
madrazrshikher: you can read the published paper on Bigtable if I have got you interested enough on how Bigtable implements indexes etc00:50
madrazrshikher: anyway since App Engine is implemented on Bigtable00:50
madrazrit needs indexes00:50
madrazrand App Engine does not build all the N! combination of indexes possible by default00:51
shikhermadrazr: sure. if i get the time00:51
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shikherwhich is pretty hard in my college00:51
madrazrshikher: so for most queries we, the application (Melange in our case) need to define the required index for the model00:51
madrazrmodel queries' I mean :)00:52
madrazrshikher: I keep saying this.00:52
madrazrThere is no such thing as "I have enough of" of two things00:53
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madrazr1. Time00:53
madrazr2. Money00:53
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shikhertrue. but I am not generalizing here. this is a statement which I am making after doing comparisons.00:54
MatthewWilkesmadrazr: 1: people in pain. 2: Millionaires. What's next to dismiss?00:54
madrazrshikher: fair enough :)00:54
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madrazrMatthewWilkes: 1. they say they have enough time? 2. If millionaires or even billionaires had ever said we have enough money this world would have been such a great place to live!00:55
shikherMatthewWilkes: people in pain. wat?00:56
madrazrshikher: MatthewWilkes means people in pain say they have enough time :)00:57
MatthewWilkesIt's quite common for the terminally ill to not want any more time. And it's common for billionaires to think they have enough money, that doesn't stop them wanting more.00:57
madrazrin the sense that every second in pain is like a century or whatever00:57
MatthewWilkesBill Gates, for example, has more than he needs00:57
MatthewWilkesbut, yes, that's OT00:57
MatthewWilkesI know!00:58
* olly crushes MatthewWilkes with a big pile of money00:58
madrazrMatthewWilkes: I was about to give Bill Gates as example and claim that he might be doing all the charity work but he might not have said "I have enough money"00:58
madrazrbut either way, there is no way to prove00:58
madrazrMatthewWilkes: olly: shikher: Oh btw!00:59
madrazrthere might have been someone who said "enough money"00:59
tpbTitle: The Dark Knight - The Joker - Everything Burns - HQ2 - Cut - YouTube (at
madrazrfor your own enjoyment!00:59
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madrazrthis is actual better
tpbTitle: The Jokers Money Burning - YouTube (at
shikhermadrazr: I can never get too much of joker!01:01
madrazrshikher: :)01:02
shikherthe right emoticon would be :'(01:02
madrazrshikher: why?01:03
shikhermadrazr: really! please think on it. while I think on improving lists. If I have a solution u will see it in my proposal, otherwise I guess u will have to wait for ur ninja. :D01:04
madrazrshikher: an important note here01:05
madrazrshikher: we don't expect our students to give perfect solutions in the proposal01:05
madrazrthis is not a school exam come on :)01:05
madrazrshikher: as long as you are going in the right direction we are willing to explore that territory01:06
madrazrin fact most of the work exploration for both the student and the mentor right?01:06
madrazrif we knew the solution, we would have implemented it already01:06
madrazrshikher: so you should feel free to try01:07
madrazrshikher: also there is a reason why mentors exist01:07
shikhermadrazr: will keep tht in mind. going to sleep. have exams starting today.01:07
madrazrto point you in the right directions or at least tell what may not work01:07
madrazrshikher: alright01:07
madrazrshikher: good luck01:08
shikherthanks. well u hve certainly done ur job in pointing me in the right direction. bye now.01:08
madrazrshikher: bye01:08
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joshuatjhi there! Is it normal that I don't see an option to upload enrollment forms on "My Profile"?01:58
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abhinavsv3Hi  ,  I want to apply for GSoC 2014 .  I am preparing my proposal .  Where should I submit my proposal for review and suggestions from the community ?02:22
abhinavsv3Also I havnt made a patch yet  . I am working on it  . Can I submit the patch link  later  ?02:23
madrazrjoshuatj: it is *NOT* normal02:26
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abhinavsv3Hi , I am very much interested in doing melange project . I want to contribute to the project . I also want to participate in melange at GSoC 2014  . Should I definitely submit a patch for my Proposal to be selected ?02:32
abhinavsv3or can i spend more time in carving of the proposal about my Part of work in the proposal02:33
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madrazrabhinavsv3: it depends on which GSoC organization you are participating for. Each organization has its own set of requirements02:35
madrazrabhinavsv3: since you don't mention the organization name and asking the question here on #melange I am assuming this question is for Melange02:36
madrazrfor Melange yes, we want you to submit patch(es)02:36
madrazrit is a requirement for us02:36
madrazrwe want to know how you write code02:36
olly"I am very much interested in doing melange project"02:36
madrazrhow you use version control system02:36
madrazrolly: oops02:37
madrazrmy fail!02:37
madrazrabhinavsv3: sorry about that02:38
abhinavsv3olly : Hey , Any mistake in that statement  , why is mine statement quoted again ??02:40
ollyabhinavsv3: nothing wrong with what you said, just madrazr missed where you said  "melange"02:42
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* olly was just pointing out you had actually said02:42
madrazrabhinavsv3: nothing wrong, olly just showed me how stupid I am :P02:43
madrazrolly: he he true :)02:43
madrazrolly: on April 22nd I am going to party02:44
madrazrI have promised myself02:44
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abhinavsv3Oh ok  .  Thank you . Working on the patch . Can I submit my patch after submitting my proposal .  i.e,  can I edit my proposal later ??02:57
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abhinavsv3OR ,  can I update my proposal later with the patch ?03:01
ollyyou can edit your proposal up to the deadline03:03
abhinavsv3ok that means I have get a bug fix before the deadlin(21st March) right ?03:04
* olly can't speak for the melange mentors03:04
ollybut probably03:04
abhinavsv3ok .03:05
abhinavsv3thank you03:05
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madrazrolly: you were right even for Melange :)04:20
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aps-sidsHello everyone. I'm writing a proposal in GSoC website but I'm not able to figure out how to do formatting (bold text, bullets, etc.) in the Content box. Can someone please help me about the same?06:26
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aps-sidsnevermind, formatting toolbar had not loaded properly.06:37
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jasvirmadrazr: hello07:38
madrazrjasvir: hello07:38
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jasvirmadrazr: I wish to work on student and mentor flow. What are expectations from your side?07:46
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madrazrjasvir: what do you mean by expectations from our side?07:46
madrazrjasvir: basic basic requirement is07:47
madrazrto read the ideas page description07:47
madrazrand also all the associated issues listed along with ideas description07:48
madrazrand to make a coherent proposal out of it07:48
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jasvirmadrazr: I meant to say that issues listed there do have any priorities? You want all the issues to be addressed or only some of them should get removed on priority basis.07:53
madrazrjasvir: ideally all07:54
madrazrjasvir: your proposal should maximize the number of issues it resolves07:55
jasvirmadrazr: Ok.07:57
shriharimadrazr: How many slots are expected for Melange?07:58
madrazrshrihari: we don't know07:59
madrazrand that information is not public until Google announces the accepted students list publicly07:59
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shrihariYeah, alright.08:00
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fgnievinskiGSoC is emailing me broken links; is this the right place to report, please?14:14
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gevaertsfgnievinski: it probably is, but see the email address in the topic if you don't get a useful response here14:24
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fgnievinskiit says: "Someone has submitted a new proposal to GNU Octave named Project under GNU Octave at /gsoc/proposal/review/org/google/gsoc2014/cantbeat007/5629499534213120:"14:27
fgnievinskithe seems to be missing14:28
tpbTitle: Domain Name Registration and Web Hosting | (at
fgnievinskimaybe it's better to email [email protected] ?14:33
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Archey guys17:08
Arcare you aware the link to the project sent to mentors is missing the protocol and host?17:09
ArcMarsh has submitted a new proposal to Copyleft Games named Dungeon Master at /gsoc/proposal/review/org/google/gsoc2014/marsh/5629499534213120  -- and the url it points to is the same17:09
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jahewsonHi, I'm a GSoC mentor and I've spotted a couple of issues with the melange automated e-mails...18:49
Arcliken the link url? :-)18:49
jahewsonYep, the proposal e-mails start with a partial link18:50
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jahewsonBut also the footer is missing the unsubscribe url:18:50
jahewsonYou are receiving this message because you are participating in Google Summer of Code 2014.18:50
jahewsonTo stop receiving these messages, go to: .18:50
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carolsmadrazr: we've had some email issues reported from the mentors18:53
RaulTmadrazr: When you have some free time to discuss some gsoc ideas please ping me18:53
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carolsjahewson Arc: if madrazr doesn't respond you can also forward the email to daniel and he can take a look18:54
madrazrcarols: email issues? Are the details here in the logs? Or emails?18:55
carolsmadrazr: jahewson and Arc can tell you about it18:55
madrazrRaulT: can't say I am "free" right now, but we can have this conversation. I will be around but a bit slow in responding18:56
madrazrRaulT: how can I help you?18:56
madrazrjahewson: Arc: is there some background reading I can do about this issue?18:56
* madrazr is reading the logs18:57
RaulTmadrazr: first about the ranking system. My idea is implementing a ranking system for the proposals18:57
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RaulTmadrazr: Similar to what mentors have18:57
carolsmadrazr: "Hi, I'm getting automated e-mails from melange with the following footer:18:58
carols[11:42am] jahewson: You are receiving this message because you are participating in Google Summer of Code 2014.18:58
jahewsonmadrazr: I'm a GSoC mentor and noticed a few minor issues in the proposal notification e-mails. The unsubscribe link at the bottom is missing, it's just a ".", also the e-mail starts with a broken link to the proposal page on melange.18:58
carols[11:42am] jahewson: To stop receiving these messages, go to: ."18:58
RaulTmadrazr: And in doing so the deduplication process can be fully automated : The mentors decide if they should accept the proposal and give it a grade18:58
RaulTmadrazr: And the students rank the proposal as well.18:58
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RaulTmadrazr: With this information you can deduce a way to distribute accepted students to orgs so that everyone is happy18:59
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RaulTmadrazr: And after slot realocation the deduplication happens again ?18:59
RaulTmadrazr: Is it clear so far ?18:59
* gevaerts thinks that RaulT is an optimist19:01
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gevaerts"everyone is happy" and gsoc do not go together!19:01
RaulTgevaerts: What i mean is mentors get the best of the applications they are willing to accept  and the students to the orgs they whant to go if they get accepted :P19:02
RaulTgevaerts: for everything else there's mastercard19:03
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gevaertsRaulT: I'm just an interested observer here, so feel free to tell me to shut up, but how do you handle things like one of the orgs having a possible replacement project and the other not?19:04
gevaertsDeduplication is about a lot more than how good the proposal is on its own19:05
madrazrjahewson: carols: I see19:05
madrazrtaking a look (also in a talk)19:05
RaulTgevaerts: what do you mean by replacing project ?19:06
gevaertsRaulT: there might be another student with a similar proposal that's also acceptable19:06
gevaertsOften, if that's the case for one organisation but not the other, the organisation without such a replacement will get the student19:07
RaulTgevaerts: That's where the mentor ranking comes into play. If the org gets a list of proposals that they are willing to accept and order them.19:08
ollyjahewson: there's an open issue for that19:08
ollyfor the lack of the unsubscribe link at least - I think the links are in the HTML version19:08
gevaertsRaulT: there is of course the other interesting issue of different orgs using very different scoring and ranking systems19:08
RaulTgevaerts: but within an org the scoring system should be consistent19:09
gevaertsIf it's there at all, yes :)19:09
meflinumbrella's :)19:09
jahewsonolly: ok, thanks19:09
tpb<> (at
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gevaertsAh yes. It's not raining here, so I forgot about umbrellas :)19:10
meflinthat could lead to disaster of suborgs with more students then mentors :D19:11
ollyRaulT: we might have some mentors who are only up for mentoring a limited set of proposals though19:11
gevaertsSo no, the scoring system within an org isn't guaranteed to exist at all, and if it exists it's not guaranteed to be consistent overall19:11
ollyso if we don't get student X, we might not want another student19:11
ollybut if we don't get student Y, we would19:11
ollya ranked list isn't enough to capture that19:11
gevaertsMaybe the org admin should provide a set of rules that handle all of these things :)19:12
ollysubmit a patch to melange to implement your preferences?19:12
ollyi feel the current iterative solution we have is practical at least19:13
madrazrRaulT: gevaerts: yes! The Stable Marriage problem :)19:13
tpb<> (at
madrazrRaulT: also be aware of the fact that the current Melange system does not do anything to encourage ranking19:14
ollyit used to be we set a ranked order and the top N were taken19:15
madrazrall Melange cares about is before we run the "accept students" jobs we have proposals marked as "acceptable" by organization19:15
ollybut we got to fiddle between deduplication rounds19:15
ollypersonally, i find the current system of marking students explicitly better19:16
ollyless chance of a surprise acceptance19:16
RaulTmadrazr: So the students ranking proposal is done to help with the deduplication process19:16
meflinits for internal org use19:16
ollyRaulT: no, ranking is an optional tool for the org19:16
madrazrolly: 1519 needs to be bumped somehow19:16
ollymadrazr: i was surprised it didn't get fixed for so long - it seems it shouldn't be very hard as the HTML has them19:17
RaulTolly: What purpose the this issue intend to serve ?
tpb<> (at
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RaulTolly: Just to help in some particular cases of deduplication ?19:18
madrazrolly: yeah, the problem is we rely a lot on App Engine to do email handling for us19:18
madrazrolly: we should generate the email content ourselves for text/plain and text/html I guess19:19
ollyRaulT: seems unnecessary to me - if students have a strong preference, they can just tell the org they prefer19:19
madrazrolly: but someone should figure out how to do it19:19
ollybut they should realise that their preference won't necessarily be respected, and only apply for projects they'd be happy to do19:20
* olly is kind of amazed 1530 is medium but 1519 is low19:20
gevaertsRaulT: the original text there has some value I think, but the followup comments make a lot of invalid assumptions19:21
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ollymadrazr: ah, so the text is autogenerated from the html?19:21
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madrazrolly: yeah, App Engine does that HTML to text sanitization for us19:22
ollyperhaps just sending text/plain with the URLs in would be better?19:22
madrazrand obviously App Engine does not know what to do with the anchor texts19:22
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gevaertsJust drop html email. It's been a horrible mistake all along :)19:22
ollygui clients will make the emails clickable anyway19:22
madrazrolly: may be, but then some people with fancy clients will be upset19:23
RaulTgevaerts: So according to the original text. If a student gets accepted to two organizations the student rank is revealed to the mentors as a preview of what the student wants to chose ?19:23
ollygevaerts: i feel the whole wheel thing was where we went wrong19:23
ollymadrazr: well, anyone who reads the text/plain is upset now19:23
RaulTgevaerts: Or alternatively the student ranking is used to decide to wich organization the student goes to19:23
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gevaertsRaulT: the student ranking is *optional*19:24
gevaertsOh, wait19:24
gevaerts*that* ranking :)19:24
gevaertsOrganisations are allowed to take the student's preference into account, but they explicitly don't have to19:24
ollyand if I have a stack of good students and the other org has very few, I'm likely to let them have a student we both tried to accept19:25
gevaertsThe reason that that suggestion might be useful is that right now, if they want to take the student's preference into account, they have to ask the student, which reveals a lot about acceptance, which isn't actually allowed19:25
ollythat's not a process that's easy to automate19:25
RaulTgevaerts: So the information is revealed and organizations take that into account19:25
RaulTgevaerts: By whatever process it consideres fit19:25
ollygevaerts: but the simple instruction of telling students to mention it to the org they prefer solves that19:26
ollyno need for elaborate machinery in melange for a corner case19:26
gevaertsolly: yes, indeed, but some students have the idea that mentioning "competing" proposals hurt their chances :)19:26
ollywell, let's fix that19:27
gevaertsAnd the thing is that I don't trust org admin and mentor common sense enough to be totally convinced that that's always untrue...19:27
ollythe orgs aren't naive, we know they can apply to up to 4 other orgs19:27
ollyperhaps knowing there's competition for a good student makes them more desirable?19:28
* gevaerts isn't *entirely* convinced :)19:28
ollymelange also gives clues that the student may have applied elsewhere19:28
ollyunless that's been changed19:29
gevaertsI seem to vaguely remember a mentor or org admin saying something on the mailing list or irc (I told you it was vague!) about picking a student that didn't have a risk of being a duplicate19:29
gevaertsPersonally I think that's just stupid, but then I'm not in charge anywhere19:29
RaulTolly: So for this simple purpose a 5 star ranking system similar to what mentors get should be enough ?19:30
RaulTolly: And how the mentors take intor consideration that information is entirely up to them19:31
gevaertsOf course there are also lots of orgs that will just ask the student directly19:31
gevaertsAnd I'd say lying to them in such a case is positively dangerous19:31
ollygevaerts: we do19:31
gevaertsolly: yes, we always did too19:32
ollyand so far, haven't seen any indication that students lie to us about it19:32
* gevaerts nods19:32
* olly has also noticed that the best proposals come from students who are much less likely to have applied elsewhere19:32
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RaulTolly: I't better to focus on one goal then spread your attention on many subjects19:34
ollyat least the limit's now 5, not 2019:35
RaulTolly: So to onclude the debate on this. This feature is purely optional and serves as some additional information mentors could consider when deciding upon a duplication. So for this purpose a simple ranking system (eg 5 star ranking) whould suffice19:36
gevaertsI'd say so, yes19:37
ollyRaulT: my view is that if anything is added, it should just be a field which only gets shown to the orgs when deduplication starts19:37
RaulTolly: Got it! Thanks !19:38
RaulTThe next thing I want to ask about is this issue :
tpb<> (at
ollyactually, I guess it should show the ratings against the other orgs shown as duplicates as well as the one for yours19:39
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ollyRaulT: ooh, i reported that one19:41
gevaertsThat one *will* make people buy you drinks19:41
RaulTwith some major parsing it can be done19:42
RaulTconsidering the output of something like this
tpbTitle: 7.4. difflib — Helpers for computing deltas Python v2.7.6 documentation (at
RaulTyou can get a summary of the changes between two consecutive proposals19:42
RaulTand If you have the current state of the proposal and the list of changes it should be easy to reverse engineer the changes19:43
ollyconceptually it's pretty straightforward, but I can believe that actually implementing it isn't so easy19:44
RaulTI consider saving the most recent state because in most cases you do not want to compute all history19:44
ollyyes, you want the current version efficiently19:44
ollyTBH, you could probably just save each version19:44
RaulTolly: And do the diff between whatever versions you want ?19:46
ollysomething like maybe19:47
tpb<> (at
RaulTolly: Isn't a problem if we save a different version for every litle change the user makes. I think it's not ok to save 500 words for a typ-o19:47
gevaertsWhy not?19:47
RaulTIt just seems very inefficient19:48
gevaertsThen use a VCS backend :)19:49
ollyjust chant "disk is cheap" as you do it19:49
ollythat's what everyone else seems to do these days19:49
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* olly doesn't have the stats, but I'd see if you can find info on how many proposal revisions there are and how big a proposal typically is before worrying a lot about the size19:51
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RaulTthat seems like a reasonable alternative :)19:51
gevaertsI'd still go for a VCS backend :)19:52
RaulTgevaerts: But that provides a full list of features that are not required19:53
ollygevaerts: appengine might thwart that, but it's worth considering19:53
ollyRaulT: don't use them all then19:53
gevaertsRaulT: in that case, you also can't use appengine, or html, or javascript :)19:53
RaulTolly: Don't use what ?19:53
ollymakes more sense to use something existing than reinvent it19:53
ollydon't use the features of a VCS backend you don't require19:53
ollyas gevaerts says, melange doesn't reject HTML because it doesn't need a <blink> tag19:54
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gevaertsWhat you want is a way to efficiently store revisions of a text file, and a way to get specific revisions out19:54
gevaertsIf you don't want much more than that, go for rcs :)19:55
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RaulTgevaerts: Or just save them all as olly suggested19:56
RaulTgevaerts: but get a rcs that does just that is hard to find19:59
gevaertsRaulT: you're misunderstanding me19:59
ollyyou don't need an RCS which does *JUST* that19:59
ollyit just needs to do *AT LEAST* that20:00
gevaertsI'm not saying to use *an* RCS. I'm suggesting to use rcs :)20:00
ollymy car has a reverse gear, but I can just ignore it if I only need to drive forwards20:00
ollygevaerts: ooh, retro20:00
gevaertsBut yes, I'd go for one of the modern ones. rcs is getting a bit old now :)20:00
ollyit's true that this is pretty much exactly what rcs does though20:01
RaulTolly: That's what i suggested. Implementing a RCS for this particular purpose.20:03
RaulTolly: because i don't thing that adding something like git or mercurial might help20:04
* gevaerts wants people to stop confusing people by calling the *concept* RCS :)20:04
gevaertsRCS is an actual implementation!20:04
ollyRaulT: it's mad to build your own versioning system20:04
* gevaerts nods20:05
ollyyou could do this with an existing system20:05
ollygit allows you to diff versions of a file, and list the history20:05
ollyI imagine mercurial does20:05
ollysure they support stuff like branches which you don't need20:06
ollybut you can ignore all that20:06
gevaertsThe bit you need will still be more efficient and better tested than whatever you can come up with on short notice20:07
ollyif you write your own, you'll end up having more bugs, and it'll likely be slower, because these popular tools have been optimised a lot20:07
RaulTolly: So my job here is to find a way to integrate an versioning system with the proposal system20:07
ollywell, gevaerts and I are just heckling from the peanut gallery really20:07
ollywe aren't melange devs20:07
gevaertsYes. We all do what we're good at :)20:07
ollybut I'd say that's the best approach20:07
RaulTso that's done. Thank you for your help20:12
RaulTnext one : This should be solved with a "Save" and a "Submit for review" button20:13
tpb<> (at
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RaulTdoes this seem reasonable ?20:20
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RaulTwhere has everyone gone ?20:42
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tpbTitle: Issue 2093 - soc - past GSoC proposal link - SoC (Spice of Creation) - Google Project Hosting (at
cosenal^ it says fixed, but I still don't see old proposals21:03
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madrazrcosenal: what do you mean by "don't see"?21:27
madrazrcosenal: do you see an error like server error? Or some sort of a message?21:27
madrazrcosenal: also can you please give us the URL of the page where you see this behavior?21:28
cosenalmadrazr: everything as in the issue I reported21:28
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Dogedropthere seems to be a problem with enrolment form uploading21:31
Dogedropsays service unavailable after loading for a long time21:31
carolsDogedrop: madrazr can help you.21:31
madrazrDogedrop: which browser do you use21:31
Dogedroptried both safari and firefox21:31
dblia_i have the same with firefox 27.0.121:31
madrazrDogedrop: can you try the same in private browsing mode?21:32
madrazrdblia_: to you too ^21:32
madrazrcosenal: the URL has changed21:33
madrazrcosenal: in the sense that we made some changes to our data layer that might have given your proposal a different ID21:33
madrazrcosenal: the last part in your URL21:33
cosenalmadrazr: how do I figure out the new ID?21:34
madrazrcosenal: you should be to go to your GSoC 2012 dashboard and access your proposal from there though21:34
madrazrcosenal: you don't have to figure out the ID :)21:34
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madrazrcosenal: you should just be able to go to the dashboard and find the link to your proposal from there21:34
Dogedroptried both safari and firefox private mode, same thing21:34
dblia_madrazr: the same21:34
madrazrdblia_: Dogedrop: would you mind sending a screenshot of the error so that I can use it to analyze the problem?21:35
madrazryou can PM the link21:35
madrazror email me the screenshot21:35
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madrazrI don't see errors anything in our logs though21:36
madrazrDogedrop: dblia ^21:36
cosenalmadrazr: ok, cool. I see it from the dashboard. A small issue: when I click on the public link, it says "no page name. report the issue to soc bug tracker…"21:36
madrazr*I don't see any errors in our logs though21:36
dbliamadrazr: it happend after editing my profile info21:37
madrazrcosenal: yeah make some noise here please :)21:37
tpb<> (at
dbliamadrazr: the previously uploaded form was missing and tried to re-upload it21:38
cosenalmadrazr: all right, thanks!21:38
madrazrdblia: Dogedrop: don't upload anything now21:39
madrazrIt is time for me to be terribly upset with someone21:39
madrazrlet me go do something about that :D21:40
dbliamadrazr: ok, thank you21:40
* gevaerts didn't do it!21:40
madrazrgevaerts: :P21:40
madrazrdblia: Dogedrop: I wish I could give you a link to the health status of the service we use to store files21:41
madrazrlike the health monitoring dashboard we have for large services like GMail, Drive etc21:41
madrazrso that you will know when you can try again21:41
madrazrbut looks like there is no such thing21:42
madrazrso may be you will have to check for yourselves again after sometime21:42
madrazror ping me21:42
dbliamadrazr: i will retry tommorow21:42
Dogedropwhat is the problem?21:42
madrazrdblia: thanks!21:42
madrazrDogedrop: looks like a blobstore outage21:42
madrazrbut I can't confirm it21:43
madrazrbecause there is no health monitoring dashboard21:43
Dogedropalright I will try later then21:44
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RaulTmadrazr: Can we talk now ?21:48
madrazrRaulT: yeah>21:49
RaulTmadrazr: What is your take about integrating an existing revision sistem with melange to provide the "track differences " feature for proposals ?21:50
madrazrwe do not want a version control system21:51
madrazrall we want is to be able to view diffs between any two versions of a proposal21:52
madrazrany version control system today is much more complicated than that21:52
RaulTmadrazr: So what is needed is an implementation of _just_ this feature21:52
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RaulTmadrazr: Without the added overhead a revision system comes with.21:53
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madrazrstoring versions21:53
madrazrshowing diffs21:53
RaulTmadrazr: For storing should I save the full proposal and just add a diff between the versions I want21:54
RaulTmadrazr: Or try to store just the diffs and compute the result based on the requirement21:55
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RaulTrequirements* ?21:55
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RaulTmadrazr: Just a kindly reminder in case you got distracted, I am still waiting a response. Plese respond when you find the time.22:16
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