Thursday, 2009-05-07

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jamtodaySRabbelier: Made progress on the GUI, but still having problems on the back-end. I tried using two seperate views as you suggested but it turns out that this would probably be even more problematic05:18
jamtodayOr at least that's what I concluded...Now I'm back to using a generic ModelForm class, but it's not recognizing dynamic properties05:20
jamtodayI have a basic spike solution working, but there are a couple big potential problems. db.Expando() is great for dynamic properties, but I'd essentially be making a unique property for each individual survey question on each survey, and that doesn't seem to be a very scalable approach.05:24
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SRabbelierjamtoday: ping13:18
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MerioHi Daniel :)14:40
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SRabbelierdhans, Merio: did you two research statistics from previous years yet?14:51
MerioSRabbelier: last year I've found some statistics in google OS blog14:52
SRabbelierdhans: you?14:53
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dr__housethe no power friend greets Lennie14:56
Lenniehi Gregory14:56
dr__houseLennie: heya14:57
madrazrLennie: Gregory?14:57
dhansMerio: hello :)14:57
dr__houseLennie: pretty odd, nobody usually refers to me from my first name :P14:57
dhansSRabbelier: present:)14:57
dr__housemadrazr: Gregory is Dr. House's first name14:57
madrazrdr__house: I must anyways say that we must shut up :P there is a meeting at 00:30 our time14:57
dr__house:P14:57
madrazrdr__house: he he Ok14:57
dr__housemadrazr: ouch! didn't know that, sorry14:57
madrazrdr__house: NP actually :P14:58
madrazrbut I just told you :)14:58
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SRabbelierMhhhh15:00
SRabbelierLet's wait 5 more mins for Pawel15:00
solydzajsI'm back15:00
* James--Crook waves to pawel15:01
solydzajsrest room quickly and brb15:01
SRabbeliersolydzajs: wb then :)15:01
* SRabbelier will brb as well15:02
James--CrookHi Merio! What URL?  (last year's stats)?15:03
madrazrI would like to take this time to thank James--Crook15:03
madrazrJames--Crook: thanks so much! probably I cannot stop telling that :P15:03
madrazrfor all the GHOP related wiki updates!15:04
MerioHi James--Crook!15:04
James--Crook'tis the wiki way :-)15:04
madrazrJames--Crook: :)15:04
James--CrookHi Merio.  Thanks for the e-mail.15:04
James--CrookHi Daniel!15:04
solydzajsok i'm back15:04
solydzajsdhans: ping15:04
solydzajsMerio: ping15:04
dhansJames-Crook: Hello:)15:05
dhanssolydzajs: pong15:05
James--Crookand we're off...!15:05
solydzajsok lets wait for Sverre and we are good to go15:05
Meriosolydzajs: pong15:05
* SRabbelier is back15:06
solydzajsok15:07
James--CrookSo, what are the decisions that need to be made?15:07
SRabbelierJames--Crook: good question!15:07
SRabbeliersolydzajs: do we have an agenda?15:07
solydzajshow we are going to gather the stats data, where to store then in what format, how long to cache (we are going to use Jobs for that purpose for sure)15:08
solydzajsprobably saving data in some model as JSON object15:08
solydzajsfor easy processing later15:08
Lenniewe are talking implementation?15:09
LennieDo the two gentlemen even know what they will be doing :)?15:09
SRabbelierLennie: +many15:09
solydzajswe need to decide what kind of stats are required15:09
SRabbeliersolydzajs: you didn't get around to sending the email to Merio and Daniel, right?15:09
solydzajslike:15:09
James--CrookYes.  And can we add some specific questions, from Daniel, about what the improtant stats are, and a general one about display.  Should easily keep us busy for the hour :-)15:09
solydzajsstudents per country15:09
solydzajsstudents per school15:09
solydzajsmentors per country15:10
solydzajsamount of mentors/students/org admins15:10
SRabbeliersolydzajs: mhhh, can we save the 'what stats do we want to gater' part for later?15:10
solydzajssure15:10
solydzajsthis should go on the wiki15:10
SRabbeliersolydzajs: yes, but I think we have other things to discuss first :)15:10
Lenniemy plan would be, figure out who is doing what. Then let them write a wiki on what they are going to gather15:10
James--CrookRight, and this one has some discussion of stats too in the comments: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/two-top-10s-for-google-summer-of-code.html15:10
solydzajssure bring them on then15:10
tpb<http://ln-s.net/36Nx> (at google-opensource.blogspot.com)15:10
Lennierefine on that15:10
James--CrookLennie: Sounds good.  Go for it.15:11
solydzajshttp://opentouch.info/tmp/ghop/ghop-stats.html15:11
tpbTitle: GHOP Statistics (at opentouch.info)15:11
SRabbelier(ftr, I invited James--Crook to share his view on things, similar to how we had Matthew comment during our earlier meeting on GHOP)15:11
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I think it's important that we first get the who-does-what worked out; we've promised to do this for a few weeks now, so let's get that out of the way15:13
MerioSRabbelier: agree ... looking forward to it :)15:13
solydzajsMerio and dhans need to start working on way of gathering the stats data first15:14
solydzajsso we need a wiki page15:14
* Merio is probably a little bit lagged...15:14
SRabbeliersolydzajs: mhhh, ok, but we need to be more specific15:14
SRabbeliersolydzajs: we should scope that down a bit more I think to say... a few days of work15:14
solydzajsif you want to be more specific then we go into design of how this should work15:14
SRabbeliersolydzajs: no, I don't mean implementation details15:15
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I mean more like, functional requirements15:15
solydzajsSRabbelier: design is not implementation15:15
SRabbeliersolydzajs: what exactly does this part of the system need to do15:15
SRabbeliersolydzajs: (not the how should it do it)15:15
James--CrookSo, perhaps lats start with stats that don't need the 1000 record solution, if there are any such?  Let's say we want to do a repeat of, http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/two-top-10s-for-google-summer-of-code.html15:16
tpb<http://ln-s.net/36Nx> (at google-opensource.blogspot.com)15:16
solydzajsJames--Crook: 1000 record solution is not a problem here15:17
James--Crook...go on?15:17
SRabbelierJames--Crook: we plan to use Jobs, to batch-process the data15:17
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SRabbelierJames--Crook: (say, in chunks of 50 entities at a time)15:18
dhansJames:afaik we'wll use Jobs15:18
solydzajsok lets start with a little description15:18
SRabbelierI was thinking about something like15:18
solydzajswe need stats module to display all sort of stats tables, charts and visualizations15:18
solydzajswe need Jobs to gather the data and save that data into some Stats Model15:19
SRabbelierA basic framework for gathering statistics, setting up a system that executes regularly, process a chunk of data, writes it out, lather rinse repeat15:19
solydzajsthis is one part of the system15:19
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solydzajsthose Jobs will basically fetch all the necessary for processing data15:19
* SRabbelier resumes15:19
SRabbelierOn the frontend we want a system that can accept a set of statistics, and display it to the user in a relevant way15:20
James--Crookdhans do you have a good picture of what that would entail?  Good enough to write something up for it on a wiki page?15:20
solydzajsyes in form of table, chart (using Chart API, so static image) or Visualization API15:20
James--Crook(by that I mean the jobs data collection)15:20
SRabbelierThis "relevant way" should be easily configurable (e.g., making it easy to change the type of the visualization), so preferrably not something hard-coded into a page15:20
dhansJames--Crook: I read something about the Jobs (it's preety new in GAE), but I think I could do it15:21
solydzajsthe stats will be collected on Dashboard pages15:21
solydzajsOrg admin/Mentor/Program Admin/Developer dashboards15:21
SRabbeliersolydzajs: ping15:22
solydzajsSRabbelier: pong ?15:22
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I want to take a higher-level overview first, I feel you're focussing on the details too early already15:22
SRabbeliersolydzajs: there's always time to work things out, taking a birds view is something you can't do later on15:23
SRabbeliersolydzajs: (well, you can, but usually it's too late to change things by then)15:23
solydzajsSRabbelier: go ahead15:23
James--Crookdhans: so need to decide what the job does and where it puts the results.  Could be memcache, could be GAE entity/property.  I am not sure.  How would we decide?15:23
MerioSRabbelier: do you mean talking about frontend features?15:23
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I didn't mean I wanted to take the word, the opposite, I'd prefer to hear your oppinion on this15:23
SRabbelierMerio: no, I mean talking about design first15:24
solydzajsJames--Crook: it needs to be in some GAE model and cached too15:24
dhansJames-Crook: I thought about GAE entities at first, but solydzajs tells something about some JSON objects15:24
James--Crookso both, no decision needed :-)  Cool with that.15:24
SRabbelierdhans, Merio: Pawel and I think it's important that you two work together on part of the system for the first few days (say, up to a week)15:24
solydzajsSRabbelier: no no if you know what you want to say go ahead, I will talk when you finish15:24
MerioSRabbelier: so, I don't know much about the Python end, but we can cache the data on the JS end sending JSON objects, and then switch the visualization as desired with the same data15:25
James--CrookMerio: Nice.15:25
SRabbelierdhans, Merio: so that, after that part of the system is finished, you two won't get into one another's way as much15:25
SRabbelierMerio: that sounds like a good solution15:26
SRabbelierwhat I want to get clear is a description of this "first week" system15:26
SRabbelieras said, something basic that you two can work from15:26
solydzajsbut we also need to use GAE memcache I think15:26
solydzajswhat we first need is python module that will use Jobs for fetching all the necesarry data15:27
solydzajsfrontend we can work on later15:27
SRabbelierdhans, Merio: from my descripion earlier, do you two understand what I mean with what that system should do?15:27
James--Crooksolydzajs: so wiki page should sketch out what we want to store in the memcache...15:27
solydzajsJames--Crook: yes15:27
MerioSRabbelier: for the first week you mean something that handles all the roundtrip or just collect some data?15:28
SRabbelierMerio: the former15:28
SRabbelierMerio: something that you both can use and improve on in your code15:28
SRabbelierMerio: without duplicating any work if at all possible :)15:28
James--Crookand as part of testing it we want some front end, and it might be easy to do say a pie chart without too much jscript so it is doable as a spike solution??15:28
SRabbelierdhans: ping?15:29
solydzajsI think right now the most important it to collect the data save it in some model as JSON15:29
dhanspong15:29
solydzajsand display that data in raw format15:29
James--Crooksolydzajs: OK and we can view raw.15:29
SRabbelierdhans: same question to you15:29
James--CrookYes.15:29
solydzajslater we will worry about charts etc15:29
solydzajsI think we should focus on this backend first15:29
MerioJames--Crook: Well... actually I think it's plain easy to get one chart from the JSON object, dont' know about the real complexity on getting that JSON on the Python end15:30
solydzajssince this will be the "core" of the stats module15:30
dhansSRabbelier: I think I understand15:30
James--CrookMerio: Yes, I know.  Agree.  Focus is still on collection.  It's harder, at this stage.15:30
SRabbelierdhans: can you give a short description in your own words?15:30
James--CrookMerio: Later javascript gets harder as we add more sophistication to it.15:30
dhanscan I copy/paste what Merio wrote? :P15:31
* SRabbelier kicks dhans :P15:31
MerioJames--Crook: I love hard JavaScript ^__^ :P15:31
James--CrookMerio: Just for record we could also have gone down a route with no jobs, and javascript doing multiple requests.  (Might still in the end, but it's not the first route into it)15:31
dhansI undestand that what we need to do at first is to collect the data using Jobs and put them in some kind of model15:31
dhansas we just decided it will be some JSON objects15:32
SRabbelierdhans: go on :)15:32
James--Crookdhans: keep talking...15:32
solydzajsJames--Crook: it will take too long15:32
Meriosolydzajs: also with the async calls as done in the duplicate script?15:32
solydzajsMerio: yes, when you request the stats view you should get it right away that's why we want to use Jobs, memcache etc so it's fast15:33
James--Crooksolydzajs: anyway what is decided is we go with the jobs solution first.15:33
solydzajsJames--Crook: that will be the only solution we will use15:34
solydzajsJames--Crook: I really don't see any other efficient options15:34
SRabbelierdhans: I do would like it if you two can work together on some client side stuff too though15:35
SRabbelierdhans, Merio: perhaps you will want to do a work-together week later on, when you work on the client side the first time?15:35
dhansit's possible15:35
MerioSRabbelier: working on different things (say, dashboard functionalities and charts) or focusing on same thing both of us?15:35
SRabbelierMerio: working on getting the basics down, so you two don't end up doing the same thing twice ;)15:36
James--Crooksolydzajs: discussion on wiki page?  Jobs will certainly give a faster answer where stats have already been collected and there has to be some cache as you say because we do not want this to happen on every query!15:36
SRabbelierJames--Crook: what to happen?15:36
MerioSRabbelier: I think (for the frontend) we can work together on some JS module or object that can do some common work on the data. Furthermore... well the dashboard skeleton should be the same for every type of user15:38
solydzajsSRabbelier: fetching of data from stats model15:38
James--CrookSRabbelier: Multiple slow queries to Melange...15:38
SRabbelierJames--Crook: ah, but the queries should be fast15:38
SRabbelierJames--Crook: the jobs collect data in the background15:38
James--Crookexactly.15:38
SRabbelierJames--Crook: (as in, all the time, even when there's no requests)15:38
James--Crookwhat solydzajs said.15:38
SRabbelierah, well that shouldn't be slow15:38
James--Crookhmmm...  no I think not...15:38
SRabbelierfetching data from one entity is really fast15:38
James--Crookmost of the data is static.15:39
James--Crooksolydzajs: opinion...  do the jobs keep running collecting data?15:39
James--Crookeven when nothing is changing?15:39
SRabbelierJames--Crook: we can easily set the interval15:39
James--Crook(easier...)15:39
SRabbelierJames--Crook: (they're already runnign atm)15:39
MerioActually some jobs can be stopped... e.g. when students get accepted... => number of accepted students are fixed that time15:39
SRabbelierJames--Crook: (we have 10 pokes each minute)15:39
SRabbelierJames--Crook: (it's barely causing any load atm)15:40
MerioSo we can have something that starts and stops jobs dinamically depending on which part of the timeline we are into15:40
James--CrookFine.  Ok.15:40
James--Crook(to SRabbelier)15:40
SRabbelierMerio: yes, indeed15:40
SRabbelierdhaun: what's your view on this?15:40
SRabbeliersolydzajs: and you?15:40
James--Crookaha...  so multiple jobs for different stats then?15:40
solydzajsyes I think there should be some Stats Settings view15:41
James--Crookseems to me simpler to have just one job type that collects all the stats.15:41
solydzajswhere you can define what stats you want to collect in what interval15:41
SRabbelierJames--Crook: we have different priority groups atm15:42
SRabbelierJames--Crook: so that makes it possibel to define various types of stats gatherers, that have different priorities15:42
James--CrookSo what is this json object going to llok like, (stop me if this is asking too much detail)15:42
MerioJames--Crook.., but then you will come gathering stats that are fixed like, as said formerly, accepted students by country. Waste of work to me15:42
dhansdon't we have this restriction that one application may have up to 20 scheduled tasks?15:42
SRabbelierMerio: no, not like that15:43
LennieSRabbelier: I rather see the prio groups being used for high level purposes ^_^15:43
SRabbelierMerio: we can create such jobs once15:43
MerioJames--Crook: I think it would be a different structure depending on what we'll found useful to iterating through15:43
SRabbelierMerio: and then once they're done, they won't run again15:43
Lenniedhans, we work arround that look into our job system :)15:43
dhansLennie: ok:)15:43
SRabbelierMerio: but we can have a general "statistics gatherer" job run regularaly, to gather any statistics that are outdated15:43
MerioSRabbelier: sorry, what does mean?15:43
SRabbelierMerio: does what I just said explain?15:44
James--CrookThe most extreme option is that we could build up a json object with all the data (minus proposal details) in our sweeps, and put it in memcache.15:44
James--CrookThen we deliver extracts from that.15:44
Lenniedhans, basically we have 10 cron jobs calling the same URL every 1 minute, this URL calls code that fetches a "job" to be done and then executes it. Therefore 1 url can do all kinds off jobs15:44
James--CrookNot sure if that is a good plan or not.15:44
MerioSRabbelier: ah great.. but then we can have that job gathering data depending on the timeline15:44
SRabbelierMerio: correct15:44
dhanslennie: good to know that15:44
SRabbelierJames--Crook: I would rather cache the statistics themselves15:45
SRabbelierJames--Crook: and keep track of when we last gathered statistics15:45
SRabbelierJames--Crook: and then update our records based on what changed15:45
James--CrookSo for spike solution, lets decide on some stats.15:45
SRabbelierJames--Crook: I am thinking something really simple15:45
SRabbelierJames--Crook: like, what we can do in the interactive console in 5 minutes15:46
James--Crookexample?15:46
SRabbelierJames--Crook: like, how many students there are per country15:47
James--CrookOK.  So that's our first target.15:48
James--CrookDo we push a button to set it collecting?15:49
MerioSRabbelier: so you mean focusing on a particular statistic instead of working together on something more general?15:49
James--CrookI see two pages.  The dashboard page (set it running) and the results page (raw json)15:49
SRabbelierMerio: nono15:50
SRabbelierMerio: I mean that you should work on the general framework first15:50
SRabbelierMerio: but that to work on that, it might be easy to use an easy stat like that to test it15:50
MerioSRabbelier: ah ok, agree completely15:50
SRabbelierJames--Crook: yes, I think we should have some sort of admin interaface there15:50
James--CrookOK.  So if we have that one, we can then add applicants-by-country.15:50
James--CrookThen we can have two push buttons, or tick boxes or some such.15:51
James--Crook...and build on that.15:51
SRabbelierJames--Crook: mhhh, I'd be fine with having a simple page with two buttons/urls on it for now :)15:52
James--Crookdhans: Is there enough information so far as to the design of the collection task?15:52
James--CrookMerio: Is there enough information so far as to the design of the pages (and their likely future development)?15:52
dhansJames--Crook: I think I get what we want to achieve15:52
James--Crookdhans: Will you write that up on wiki?15:53
James--Crook(after meeting)15:53
SRabbeliersolydzajs: you're real quiet, is something bothering you?15:53
solydzajsSRabbelier: no no just reading what you guys write :-) takes time :-)15:54
dhansJames: I'll try, but I may end up posting it tomorrow15:54
SRabbeliersolydzajs: ok, no worries then, just don't want anyone to feel excluded and all15:54
James--Crooknp.15:54
MerioJames--Crook: actually I have some other ideas for the design of the pages, so perhaps I can write a wiki page on it to show the ideas, or just write something in a PDF and send to the list... or wel.. just discuss it now :)15:54
James--Crookgreat!15:54
solydzajsSRabbelier: I think it will be best to post my ideas how this should work on the wiki, we will not achieve anything during this meeting I think15:54
SRabbeliersolydzajs: to the contrary15:55
solydzajsMerio: dhans : I suggest you create the wiki page and start thinking about Jobs , data collecting part of the Stats project15:55
Meriosolydzajs: agree, we should discuss on something more defined... but however this meeting it's good for brainstorming to me ATM :)15:55
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I think we achieved a great deal in getting clear to dhans and Merio what we expect from them the next few weeks15:55
solydzajsSRabbelier: ok cool :-) next few weeks is community bonding period so I expect wiki page from them only cause they need to work on testing too15:57
dhanswhat's not clear for me: what did we decide? are we going to store the data in json object and then memcache it or not? :)15:57
James--Crookdhans: I understood we memcache it as a json object.15:58
James--Crooksolydzajs: check?15:58
SRabbelierdhans: we'll store a JSON string in the datastore containing the statistics15:58
Merioand then served to JS when needed15:58
SRabbelierdhans: I suggested that we also cache that same string15:58
dhansJames--Crook: ok, now it makes more sense:)15:59
solydzajsyep :-) we store the JSON string in some stats model and also cache it using memcache15:59
MerioSo for the moment just wiki pages and working on testing... perhaps something more detailed to work together on with Daniel will come up from that wiki pages too :P16:00
solydzajsok16:00
James--Crooksounds good.16:00
solydzajsMerio: dhans : so you are guys good ? you know what you need to put in the wiki page ?16:00
Meriosolydzajs: do you mean a stats model that holds the whole JSON string, so?16:01
dhansI'll describe the data gathering process16:01
Meriosolydzajs: I was thinking also for some model with timed collected JSON... for the animated graphs if we want some16:01
solydzajsMerio: what kind of animated graphs you are talking about ?16:02
James--CrookMerio: Wiki page for the win!16:02
Meriosolydzajs: actually I've talked about them in my proposal. Say proposals submitted by country per day in a world view map... :)16:03
James--CrookMerio: Would be very cool.  Section on wikipage for 'animation'?16:03
solydzajsMerio: oh ok got it, yep put your suggestions on the wiki16:04
Meriosolydzajs, James--Crook: ok!16:04
dhansMerio: what did you mean by 'timed collected' JSON?16:04
Meriodhans: I mean (actually not expressing myself too well... :P) to say e.g. [JSON object, day]16:05
dhansMerio: clear now :)16:05
solydzajsok anything else to discuss right now ?16:05
Meriodhans: ok, sorry for the bad former description :P16:05
dhansMerio: np :)16:06
Meriosolydzajs: it's ok to work together with dhans on the wiki page, to exchange ideas etc...?16:06
Meriosolydzajs: I think it would be great for brainstorming also between us to have a common vision on it16:06
SRabbeliersolydzajs: I think we can brainstorm  a bit about what kind of stats we want to gather, but that can happen after you close the meeting :)16:06
* SRabbelier will be idle for a bit16:07
SRabbelierfeel free to continue talking :)16:07
solydzajsMerio: yes it's ok16:07
Meriosolydzajs: great. dhans: so, let's keep us posted by mail :)16:08
dhansMerio: sure :)16:08
James--CrookThanks everyone.  I felt that was very productive.  I'll give a hand on the wiki as soon as there is any content there.16:09
LennieJames--Crook, awesome :)16:09
dhansJames-Crook: thank you:)16:09
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solydzajsSRabbelier: i'm closing it now :-)16:11
solydzajsbb in 1h16:12
MerioSRabbelier: do we want to talk about the stats.. or ... well.. back to housewarming? :PpP ;)16:16
SRabbelierMerio: go back to your housewarming :)16:16
SRabbelierMerio: we can talk later too16:16
Lenniedhans16:16
Lennieiirc your proposal defined some interesting stats16:17
MerioSRabbelier: well... if it's better now than let's do it now, just to know if go away from the PC or not :P16:17
Lenniemaybe worth putting them up on the wiki?16:17
SRabbelierMerio: go ;)16:21
SRabbelierMerio: I'm busy anyway :)16:21
MerioSRabbelier: ok ^__^ ... c u all ^__^16:21
SRabbelierMerio: have fun :)16:21
MerioSRabbelier: thx :)16:22
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