Tuesday, 2009-05-05

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theethHi, I'm having an authentication problem with the app, can anyone help a bit?11:26
theethI'm a mentor for Blender.11:26
theethI've added a gmail address to my google account (which wasn't registered with one previously) and now it's like the GSOC app doesn't recognize me anymore11:27
theethit asks me to register again.11:27
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MatthewWilkestheeth: Email solydzajs  from both accounts and he'll fix it11:54
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theethMatthewWilkes: it's the same google account though, all other apps (like Calendar) didn't have this issue12:07
theethMatthewWilkes: but thanks, I'll email him12:07
MatthewWilkestheeth: Yes, but google app engine didn't provide a stable id until the newest revision, which we haven't upgraded to yet (it's been out a couple of weeks)12:09
theethah, that explains it12:09
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SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: well, we did upgrade to that version, we're just not using the id yet ;)13:48
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Ah, right13:55
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: but good that you brought it up, we should probably do something with/about that soon :P13:56
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: While I've got you here, the idea of that test case is it loads all the stubs and starts serving a real HTTP server, so it tests the whole stack. AFAICT (and people in here have said similar) in run.py you only set up enough stuff to be able to make python calls around melange13:56
* SRabbelier goes off to write an email13:56
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: ah, mhhhh13:57
SRabbelierdurin42: can you confirm what MatthewWilkes said, I'm not sure tbh13:57
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MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: And, to be clear, I'm not asking for this patch to be applied, it's just this discussion that I wanted for now before I go further on it13:58
durin42SRabbelier: what's the question?13:59
SRabbelierdurin42: whether run.py starts a full-fledged server (that is capable of serving HTTP requests) or not13:59
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: *nod*, aye13:59
durin42That's *just* the nosetests, if it is starting a webserver that's a bug IMO14:00
SRabbelierdurin42: ah, ok, gotcha then14:00
SRabbelierdurin42: so it doesn't use dev_appserver?14:00
durin42Not that I'm aware.14:00
durin42That is for unit tests, not functional tests.14:01
MatthewWilkesdurin42: So, would you agree that tests/run.py is insufficient for full functional tests that look at HTML output around the site?14:01
SRabbelierdurin42: clear, thanks for clarifying14:01
SRabbelierdurin42, MatthewWilkes: could either of you send this explanation to melange-soc-dev so it's available to all?14:01
durin42MatthewWilkes: correct, I would build a separate testsuite that uses something like twill to do that14:01
durin42Personally, I would use twill14:01
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I dislike twill, it doesn't support doctests sensibly14:02
durin42MatthewWilkes: http://blip.tv/search?q=functional+testing+twill&x=0&y=014:02
tpb<http://ln-s.net/3:_p> (at blip.tv)14:02
durin42MatthewWilkes: Why on earth would you be doing functional testing with *twill*?14:02
durin42Also, it sounds like you're using doctests wrongly.14:02
durin42doctest is for *short* tests that are primarily *documentation*, and thus ones that require minimal to no setup/teardown stuff.14:03
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I've sent a series of RFC patches to the mailing list that provide a unittest.TestCase compatible testcase that will start the dev_appserver, which is the context14:03
MatthewWilkesdurin42: Yep, but sometimes with webapps you need to do that with a testbrowser14:03
MatthewWilkesor, at least, it's better14:04
durin42MatthewWilkes: How is doctest's failure mode better?14:04
MatthewWilkesOf course you could mock up a request, etc, but that's not the point14:04
durin42Right, but I'm still unclear why you think doctest is appropriate for large-scale tests14:06
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I never said it was, I'm saying that the fact that doctests are short and document the functionality does not preclude them being functional tests, it depends on context14:06
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I never said it was14:06
MatthewWilkeshm, said that twice :P14:07
durin42Functional tests definitionally depend on a large part of the stack though14:07
MatthewWilkesdurin42: Yes, but some features depend on a large part of the stack.  Again, I'm not saying we should write doctests for everything, but I don't like testing tools that make those decisions for you14:07
MatthewWilkesand twill does not play well with doctests14:07
durin42Sounds like a good reason to submit patches to twill14:08
durin42Titus is only mostly an ironfisted dictator.14:08
MatthewWilkesdurin42: Oh, is it Titus's?  I have perfectly adequate tools, no interest in using Twill if it's not an improvement on what I have14:09
durin42Titus Brown, yeah14:09
durin42MatthewWilkes: what are you using?14:09
MatthewWilkesdurin42: zope.testbrowser - it's a wrapper around mechanize14:10
durin42ah, yeah, mechanize is good stuff14:11
durin42I always avoid zope.* like the plague because I don't want to pick up fun extra dependencies for minimal reason14:11
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I have write on the zope repo, often clean out deps14:12
MatthewWilkesSo not so much a problem for me ;)14:12
durin42Right, but once you get zope involved a lot of Python devs twitch, even if it's not always warranted14:13
durin42(I mean, really? zope.schema for a test browser? ditto zope.interface...)14:13
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* SRabbelier notices the signs of a religious war?14:14
MatthewWilkesdurin42: Yeah, +114:14
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: Nah, people are too sensitive14:15
durin42SRabbelier: I'll point out that the zope guy agrees with me14:15
MatthewWilkesWe're trying to be better citizens, part of that is unfucking our deps14:15
SRabbelierhonestly, I don't care either way :)14:15
durin42so to pull in a layer over mechanize, you get zope.event, zope.i18nmessageid, zope.interface, zope.schema, and zope.testing :)14:15
durin42SRabbelier: I'm one of those people that's allergic to tons of dependencies14:16
SRabbelier*cough* Django  *cough* AppEngine *cough*?14:16
MatthewWilkesdurin42: I could strip out most of that given an hour's work, I'll do that tonight if I get a chance14:16
durin42MatthewWilkes: yeah, zope is getting less entangled these days, it's a good thing to see14:16
durin42SRabbelier: I don't really like Django all that much. But it also doesn't *claim* to have multiple components.14:17
durin42Django's admin interface is cool.14:17
SRabbelierdurin42: mhh, like that, ok14:17
durin42If you're not gonna use the admin interface, Werkzeug+WTForms+Jinja2+Elixir seems like a compelling substitute.14:18
MatthewWilkesdurin42: We (Plone) will be jumping ship from zope in a few years14:19
MatthewWilkesWe're moving to full WSGI using Repoze in a year or so14:19
durin42<3 WSGI14:19
MatthewWilkesand the aim for a few major releases is to drop loads of it and bring more externals in14:19
MatthewWilkesHells yes14:20
MatthewWilkesIt's awesome, but so much middleware misbehaves14:20
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: so in the light of durin42's comments, how do you look at your own patches?14:20
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: they are still useful, no?14:20
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: perhaps, except for the zope part?14:20
MatthewWilkesSRabbelier: I think so, the Zope part isn't a dep of my patches anyway14:20
durin42MatthewWilkes: in all seriousness, drop me a line when you break the deps for that zope testbrowser, I might use that on projects at work if it was less entangled14:21
MatthewWilkesdurin42: as far as I can tell from a quick look it's for component architecture wanking, Cookies don't need to be a zca interface, it's silly14:22
MatthewWilkesI'll have to debate in on zope-dev, but I doubt anyone but architecture astronauts would mind14:23
durin42bonus points for the phrase "component architecture wanking"14:23
MatthewWilkesdurin42: As I say, we want to be better at it, #zope has 70 users, #repoze (slicing up zope into wsgi middlewares and utils) has 6114:26
durin42Yeah, that sounds awesome.14:26
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jamtodayDoes anyone know how to overwrite a property definition when you're inheriting a model class?18:00
jamtodayWithout raising exceptions, ideally :)18:01
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