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| *** Lennie changes topic to "Next up: GHOP Discussion @ 18.00 UTC - Melange powers the Google Summer of Code 2009 site - Want to contribute? Start here: http://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/GettingStarted - Be a Hero and Fix Some Melange Bugs: Easy Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/dax2j9 & Minimal Effort Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/d97z24 - Demo is running at http://melange-demo.appspot.com - Logs at http://www.thousandparsec.net/~irc/logm/" | 10:26 | |
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| Lennie | hi MatthewWilkes | 11:28 |
|---|---|---|
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| MatthewWilkes | hi Lennie | 11:33 |
| MatthewWilkes | How goes? | 11:33 |
| Lennie | pretty okay | 11:33 |
| Lennie | I'm swamped with work | 11:33 |
| Erant | Liek w0t | 11:34 |
| Lennie | liek bsc project Erant :p | 11:34 |
| Lennie | Pieter and Ot are slave masters :P | 11:34 |
| Erant | pfrt. Got time to eat greasy fat food? | 11:34 |
| Lennie | hmm | 11:34 |
| Lennie | I do, but no thanks | 11:34 |
| Lennie | I had shoarma yesterdya | 11:35 |
| Lennie | and the day before that I had greasy food :P | 11:35 |
| Erant | Aww. But but, my sunday ritual! :P | 11:35 |
| Erant | Oh, ok :P | 11:35 |
| Erant | I don't wanna kill you. Just yet. | 11:35 |
| Lennie | sorry ^^ | 11:35 |
| MatthewWilkes | I just got back from the pub, had an awesomelunch | 11:35 |
| Lennie | MatthewWilkes, english style :P? | 11:35 |
| Erant | Don't worry, I will still DO my sunday ritual ;) | 11:35 |
| Lennie | Erant, maybe next week :D | 11:35 |
| Erant | k ;) | 11:35 |
| Lennie | Erant, ST :D | 11:35 |
| Lennie | Erant, I still have that bottle of wine here :) | 11:36 |
| Erant | oooh | 11:36 |
| Lennie | we'll figure something out | 11:36 |
| Erant | Yeah. Time to clean some of this mess up first. | 11:36 |
| MatthewWilkes | roasted pork belly with crackling, sweet potato mash, roast potatoes, roasted carrots, roasted swede and broccoli sprouds | 11:36 |
| MatthewWilkes | mmmmm | 11:37 |
| MatthewWilkes | sprouts* | 11:37 |
| Lennie | Erant, I had a cleaning crew last Friday lol :D | 11:37 |
| Erant | MatthewWilkes: Crackling, isn't that like, american? Hillbilly american f00d? | 11:37 |
| Lennie | Erant, crew of one, but it wasn't me :D | 11:37 |
| Erant | Lennie: Bitch | 11:37 |
| Lennie | Erant, that's spoiled bitch for you :) | 11:38 |
| Erant | also, 'roasted swede'? Dude... | 11:38 |
| Erant | They might be from sweden, but they're still people... | 11:38 |
| Lennie | isn't that a vegetable? | 11:39 |
| MatthewWilkes | Erant: It's very popular here, especially with the fat still on, deep fried and salted. Whenever we roast pork we make the skin into crackling | 11:39 |
| Erant | Ahk. I always understood it to be from the south. | 11:40 |
| MatthewWilkes | urgh, why on earth does thirdparty/google_appengine not have a setup.py? *grumbles* | 11:42 |
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| lh | solydzajs: greetings | 13:45 |
| lh | madrazr: greetings | 13:45 |
| lh | we're getting started in 15 minutes right? | 13:45 |
| madrazr | lh: Morning | 13:45 |
| madrazr | lh: yeah | 13:45 |
| lh | madrazr: awesome. | 13:45 |
| MatthewWilkes | hi all :) | 13:45 |
| * lh goes to reread ghop document | 13:45 | |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: greetings! :) | 13:46 |
| madrazr | lh: I was a bit scared when you left for a moment now :P | 13:46 |
| lh | madrazr: nah, don't be scared | 13:46 |
| lh | :) | 13:46 |
| madrazr | lh: :) | 13:46 |
| solydzajs | lh: greetings :-) | 13:48 |
| lh | solydzajs: how are you? | 13:48 |
| * lh is checking out ghop document, anything else needed before this meeting? | 13:48 | |
| lh | madrazr: if we are very nice to him, MatthewWilkes was a mentor for ghop last year, he may be able to offer some guidance | 13:49 |
| MatthewWilkes | I am happy to take part in this meeting as a user of the system | 13:49 |
| madrazr | lh: awesome to know. It will really help | 13:49 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: Hi | 13:49 |
| solydzajs | lh: good :-) thank you, you ?;-) Holidays here in Poland | 13:50 |
| madrazr | thanks for all the help in advance | 13:50 |
| lh | solydzajs: very well, thanks. my friends simon and vera are here from berlin. | 13:50 |
| lh | :) | 13:50 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: we really want your guidance | 13:50 |
| MatthewWilkes | madrazr: I'm always happy to help in any way I can, especially in making OSPO programmes better | 13:50 |
| lh | madrazr: once we get through this meeting, we can ask for more help from past participants. :) | 13:50 |
| solydzajs | lh: oh awesome :-) they enjoy CA weather ?;-) | 13:50 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: *hugs* | 13:50 |
| lh | solydzajs: it's raining and overcast here today | 13:50 |
| solydzajs | lh: wow :-) it's sunny in Poland :-) | 13:51 |
| madrazr | lh: coolness! | 13:51 |
| lh | solydzajs: i am jealous | 13:51 |
| lh | madrazr: :) | 13:51 |
| MatthewWilkes | Lovely weather in Bristol too | 13:51 |
| solydzajs | lh: you will have better weather later I'm sure about it :-) | 13:51 |
| solydzajs | lh: when I come :-) it will be sunny :D | 13:51 |
| lh | solydzajs: i know you bring the good weather | 13:51 |
| MatthewWilkes | as we have 10 mins, I'm going to run to the shop, brb | 13:51 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: have fun! | 13:52 |
| MatthewWilkes | caffeine is required | 13:52 |
| *** Lennie|Gone is now known as Lennie | 13:53 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: solydzajs: lh: ping | 14:00 |
| madrazr | woot!!! | 14:00 |
| Lennie | dammit :P | 14:00 |
| Lennie | you beat me to it | 14:00 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: pin | 14:00 |
| lh | madrazr: pong | 14:00 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: ping | 14:00 |
| solydzajs | pong | 14:00 |
| * lh waves to lennie | 14:00 | |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: pong | 14:00 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 14:00 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I pinged at 18:00:00 sharp. LoL!!! | 14:00 |
| madrazr | :D | 14:00 |
| solydzajs | Lennie: would you like to chair this meeting ? | 14:00 |
| *** Lennie changes topic to "In session: GHOP Discussion - Melange powers the Google Summer of Code 2009 site - Want to contribute? Start here: http://code.google.com/p/soc/wiki/GettingStarted - Be a Hero and Fix Some Melange Bugs: Easy Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/dax2j9 & Minimal Effort Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/d97z24 - Demo is running at http://melange-demo.appspot.com - Logs at http://www.thousandparsec.net/~irc/logm/" | 14:00 | |
| Lennie | certainly mister chairman | 14:01 |
| solydzajs | :-) awesome | 14:01 |
| madrazr | ROFL :P | 14:01 |
| Lennie | 6 seconds lag madrazr: [20:00:06] [madrazr] Lennie: solydzajs: lh: ping | 14:01 |
| Lennie | :) | 14:01 |
| solydzajs | Lennie: any agenda ? | 14:01 |
| * lh sits back and waits to be useful | 14:01 | |
| Lennie | getting to it | 14:01 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Oh really, thats too bad :( | 14:01 |
| Lennie | gimmeh a min to type it :) | 14:01 |
| madrazr | Lennie: its sharp 11:30:00 here | 14:01 |
| Lennie | So basically this meeting is going to be about the implementation of a GHOP like workflow into Melange by madrazr. I have asked him to read the material related to this subject and come up with any questions, we will go through those first and see how the discussion fares from there. After that I'm sure others would like to post questions and comments (I also have a few) | 14:04 |
| solydzajs | I would like to answer any questions to GHOP wiki page, anything that is unclear bring it on. | 14:04 |
| Lennie | so, madrazr the stage is yours :D | 14:04 |
| solydzajs | The design and implementation details require more the just a meeting so it should be placed on separate GHOP-ImplementationDesign wiki page | 14:04 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I have prepared a small overview of how the work flow should be implemented as I have understood till now. Shall I start with it, or shall I directly get into question? | 14:05 |
| * lh would like to see the workflow | 14:05 | |
| Lennie | madrazr: The overview would be nice so we can steer where needed | 14:05 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: also any documents you prepare please put them on wiki so we can discuss it there too | 14:05 |
| Lennie | madrazr: It would be nice if you created a seperate wiki page for it as well perhaps after the meeting | 14:06 |
| Lennie | sow e can tweak it :) | 14:06 |
| solydzajs | yep exactly | 14:06 |
| Lennie | discuss it etc | 14:06 |
| madrazr | Lennie: solydzajs: sure. It is all in papers now, not so well organized. I will put them up on the wiki ASAP | 14:06 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: thx | 14:06 |
| lh | madrazr: perfect | 14:06 |
| Lennie | I read your gtalk message, you were writing on paper after a long time :) | 14:07 |
| madrazr | lh: solydzajs: thanks | 14:07 |
| Lennie | paper ftw :D | 14:07 |
| madrazr | Lennie: he he yeah :D | 14:07 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I am still writing on them :P | 14:07 |
| Lennie | okay, gives us the overview :) | 14:07 |
| madrazr | <overview> | 14:07 |
| madrazr | We basically have 5 roles, same as GSoC - Program Admin, Org Admin, Mentor, Student and Public roles | 14:08 |
| lh | madrazr: what do you mean by public roles? | 14:08 |
| Lennie | I'm guessing anyone not belonging to the 4 other groups? | 14:08 |
| madrazr | lh: basically the person need not login or needs to be authenticated for viewing the info | 14:08 |
| madrazr | lh: something like just see the tasks listed by orgs and stuff | 14:08 |
| lh | madrazr: ok, great, got it. | 14:09 |
| madrazr | the program is created by Prog. Admin, it already exists I guess | 14:09 |
| madrazr | PA has a special view, a configuration page where she sets Age limit, Timeline etc | 14:10 |
| * Lennie is writing stuff down I will comment after your story | 14:10 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: sure | 14:10 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: yes correct, this is in Program Settings | 14:10 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: just like it is now for GSoC | 14:10 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: yeah | 14:10 |
| lh | solydzajs: age limit is in program settings? | 14:11 |
| madrazr | then same as GSoC, mentoring organization apply, LH reviews it, selects them and stuff | 14:11 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: and separate timeline for this kind of workflow | 14:11 |
| madrazr | lh: not required? | 14:11 |
| lh | madrazr: it is required, but as far as i know we do age requirement checking manually (solydzajs has been running reports) | 14:11 |
| solydzajs | lh: this will be for GHOP, it's not present for GSoC | 14:11 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: as in? can't we reuse the code i.e used for GSoC | 14:11 |
| lh | solydzajs: got it ok great | 14:11 |
| madrazr | ? | 14:11 |
| Lennie | can we let the boy finish his story please :D? | 14:11 |
| Lennie | irc logs get fragmented this way :) | 14:12 |
| solydzajs | yes we can :P | 14:12 |
| madrazr | Lennie: ha ha LoL! the story is rather big :P | 14:12 |
| solydzajs | ok continue | 14:12 |
| solydzajs | and let us know when you finish | 14:12 |
| madrazr | anyways coming back, after the mentoring organizations are accepted, LH will assign task quota limit | 14:12 |
| madrazr | this must be a bit different from slots | 14:12 |
| madrazr | in GSoC since, LH must be able to change it when ever required during the program | 14:13 |
| madrazr | lh: makes sense? | 14:13 |
| Lennie | you mean GHOP? | 14:13 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yeah | 14:13 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: why it must be different ? | 14:13 |
| lh | madrazr: yes, this makes perfect sense. | 14:13 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: since you cannot change the GSoC slots once they are frozen? | 14:13 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: task limit quotas are different from slots in that sense | 14:13 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: well not really, there is no limitation to change or add new slots during the program | 14:14 |
| lh | madrazr is right - task quotas can change if we decide later to do so. slots are frozen when we say they are frozen. also, slots are based on popularity among other things - for ghop, we just decide how many tasks an organization can have | 14:14 |
| solydzajs | well ok | 14:15 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: Oh it is not enforced now? :P | 14:15 |
| madrazr | continuing, Org Admins/Mentors will have sign up options etc etc... same as GHOP. Then Org Admin will have a view to add new tasks | 14:15 |
| solydzajs | ok lets say there is different view for assigning tasks amount for orgs | 14:15 |
| solydzajs | I'm ok with it | 14:15 |
| madrazr | set task type and task tag (initial tag) | 14:15 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: Ok fine yeah | 14:15 |
| solydzajs | add/delete/edit/list ? | 14:16 |
| Lennie | we were talking about overview solydzajs | 14:16 |
| Lennie | keep going madrazr :) | 14:16 |
| solydzajs | why only org admin ? | 14:16 |
| solydzajs | mentors should be able to add new tasks too | 14:16 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: yes sure. I just forgot to add it | 14:17 |
| MatthewWilkes | Mentors should be able to add tasks with admin approving | 14:17 |
| * lh agrees with MatthewWilkes | 14:17 | |
| MatthewWilkes | GHOP mentors are often tightly connected community members, often working on fringe projects | 14:17 |
| * madrazr makes a note of it | 14:17 | |
| MatthewWilkes | PSF especially had individual python-based projects providing a couple of tasks | 14:18 |
| solydzajs | I need to leave for 2 minutes | 14:18 |
| madrazr | Org Admins/Mentors then have text boxes to set additional arbitrary tags | 14:18 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: ooh, I dig :) | 14:18 |
| Lennie | madrazr, will there be a collection of preset tags to :)? | 14:18 |
| madrazr | Lennie: no as of now, but Task States and Task Types are also considered as tags right? | 14:19 |
| madrazr | if so they are the only preset tags | 14:19 |
| * lh agrees with madrazr | 14:19 | |
| Lennie | ok | 14:19 |
| Lennie | idd | 14:19 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I think we need an entire meeting to discuss about tags itself, if we have time we will do it today | 14:20 |
| madrazr | :) | 14:20 |
| madrazr | Lennie: is it Ok? | 14:20 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: dig? | 14:20 |
| Lennie | madrazr: depends on how long this meeting is going to take, keep going with your story :) | 14:20 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: like, +1? :P | 14:20 |
| SRabbelier | digg.com? :P | 14:20 |
| madrazr | fine proceeding, OA/Mentors will also be given option to set the difficulty level and deadline for the task (not known how the deadline should be specified. Open Question: "2 days" or "31-05-2009") | 14:21 |
| MatthewWilkes | it's duration from when it's assigned | 14:22 |
| madrazr | they are given options for subscribing to these individial tasks | 14:22 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: cool! | 14:22 |
| madrazr | noted | 14:22 |
| Lennie | MatthewWilkes :) | 14:22 |
| madrazr | then coming to student's part, he will be able to view the tasks | 14:22 |
| madrazr | quite a good number of filters will be given to view this list, I will talk about this in Public view | 14:23 |
| madrazr | then he will be able to claim that (Question: should this be a check box or a text box?) | 14:23 |
| madrazr | once the task is claimed he will wait for the OA/Mentor to assign it to him (they do this by changing the Task State) | 14:24 |
| Lennie | hold it :) | 14:24 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yes | 14:24 |
| Lennie | lets take a moment for that question | 14:24 |
| lh | Lennie: can i chatter a bit here? | 14:24 |
| Lennie | do we want every student oa/mentor being able to post comments like it was in last years GHOP? | 14:24 |
| Lennie | yes lh | 14:24 |
| madrazr | lh: sad, you ask permission :( | 14:24 |
| lh | madrazr: it's lennie's meeting | 14:25 |
| Lennie | ^_^ | 14:25 |
| lh | Lennie: k thanks. i do think we want every student, oa/mentor commenting | 14:25 |
| lh | and | 14:25 |
| lh | to be really clear about this just in case it has not been before | 14:25 |
| lh | a student cannot "claim" a task, only request to claim it. a mentor/oa must change state to claim | 14:25 |
| lh | optimal in my mind for this | 14:25 |
| lh | is a student "requests to claim a task" - maybe a checkbox | 14:25 |
| lh | this generates notification (email ?) to org admin and tasks assigned mentor | 14:26 |
| lh | they then set status to claimed | 14:26 |
| madrazr | lh: yes if he has subscribed only | 14:26 |
| lh | in the interim | 14:26 |
| SRabbelier | lh: I think a button is better, checkboxes have proven to be confusing before? | 14:26 |
| lh | madrazr: ok. | 14:26 |
| lh | SRabbelier: true. | 14:26 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: depends on if we allow commenting | 14:26 |
| lh | however, something we did not have in ghop before | 14:26 |
| lh | it would be great if a student has requested to claim a task that the following happens | 14:26 |
| madrazr | lh: Lennie: are we allowing GSoC like commenting infrastructure? | 14:27 |
| lh | 1) task is in locked down state, meaning no one else can try to claim it | 14:27 |
| lh | madrazr: that's up to you. i think it is useful to have | 14:27 |
| madrazr | lh: continue with your points, sorry for stopping you | 14:27 |
| lh | 2) student can only request to claim/have claimed one tasks at a time | 14:27 |
| lh | madrazr: all good | 14:27 |
| lh | madrazr: do i need to further explain anything i just said? | 14:27 |
| madrazr | lh: no | 14:27 |
| madrazr | lh: I am getting it | 14:28 |
| lh | madrazr: awesome. | 14:28 |
| lh | that's all i had to say about this part of the workflow. it's very important to get this part right from the perspective of legal stuff. | 14:28 |
| MatthewWilkes | lh: What's the usecase for mentors rejecting claims? | 14:28 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: honestly, it's never come up. | 14:28 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: what has come up is | 14:28 |
| lh | students says "i want this task" | 14:29 |
| lh | mentor says "ok, this student has claimed this task" | 14:29 |
| madrazr | lh: Oh I think I have a question now, by lock you mean you don't want other students to claim too, even if the request is not assigned? | 14:29 |
| lh | student fails to deliver work | 14:29 |
| lh | madrazr: that is correct. | 14:29 |
| lh | mentor sets task status to reopened | 14:29 |
| Lennie | lh: I dont think we just want to cut off that usecase, someone has to be able to clear a task from its claimed state without assigning it to the student | 14:29 |
| lh | i can see a use case in which a student was a total troll on a project list or forum and mentors do not want her to do any work for them | 14:29 |
| madrazr | lh: what if a student wants to give up before it is assigned to him? | 14:30 |
| lh | and it is necessary to implement this | 14:30 |
| lh | madrazr: then mentor simply set it to reopened | 14:30 |
| *** Merio has joined #melange | 14:30 | |
| lh | Lennie: i agree, mistakes can happen. | 14:30 |
| madrazr | lh: effectively by locking, we did not allow a 2nd student who wanted to claim the task | 14:30 |
| Lennie | Student should be allowed to withdraw their claim aswell, madrazr/lh | 14:30 |
| lh | Lennie: in the scenario you describe, i would simply set task state from "claim requested" to "open" | 14:30 |
| lh | madrazr: correct | 14:30 |
| lh | Lennie: agreed. | 14:30 |
| madrazr | lh: thats a bit unfair no? | 14:31 |
| lh | madrazr: how so? | 14:31 |
| madrazr | lh: the 2nd student won't no, what is happening in this task? | 14:31 |
| solydzajs | i'm back | 14:31 |
| MatthewWilkes | lh: Would a blacklist not do that? | 14:31 |
| solydzajs | sorry | 14:31 |
| solydzajs | reading backlog | 14:31 |
| lh | madrazr: 2nd student should be able to see that task is in "claim requested" state | 14:31 |
| madrazr | s/no/know/ | 14:31 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: i am not sure what you mean by blacklist, please explain | 14:31 |
| Lennie | lh: anyone should be able to see that right, it's all happening in the open | 14:32 |
| Lennie | ? | 14:32 |
| madrazr | lh: the 1st student withdraws before it is assigned but after 2nd student saw that the claim was requested but not yet assigned | 14:32 |
| lh | Lennie: correct | 14:32 |
| lh | madrazr: i think the only way around this is to let folks follow/subscribe to tasks | 14:32 |
| lh | which seems really complicated | 14:32 |
| Lennie | madrazr, what would be your suggestion to solve this madrazr? | 14:32 |
| lh | it is a contest, part of the contest is too keep your eye out for stuff you want to do | 14:32 |
| MatthewWilkes | lh: As in, block students who are a problem from participating in your programme | 14:33 |
| MatthewWilkes | err, org | 14:33 |
| * lh sits back, is quiet and waits for answer to lennie's question | 14:33 | |
| *** Merio has quit IRC | 14:33 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: allow any number of students to claim it, but inform them that you are number # in the list to request before it is assigned. Effectively it is like a waiting list | 14:33 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: i am not sure how that works from a legal implication perspective. need to check into that. | 14:33 |
| MatthewWilkes | ok | 14:34 |
| madrazr | Lennie: if the 1st n student have withdrawn, the mentor/OA assings it to n+1th students | 14:34 |
| Lennie | madrazr: the system should assign it to the next student | 14:34 |
| *** dr__house has joined #melange | 14:34 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: is that too ambitious? | 14:34 |
| Lennie | madrazr: atleast the mentors should not have the ability to choose :p | 14:34 |
| lh | Lennie: the next student may already have a task claimed | 14:34 |
| lh | and | 14:34 |
| lh | this introduce complexity of | 14:34 |
| madrazr | lh: of course yeah | 14:34 |
| SRabbelier | lh: but how can they? | 14:35 |
| SRabbelier | lh: they can only claim one at a time? | 14:35 |
| lh | i am a student, i get on the waiting list for a task. then i go decide i am really way more excited about another one | 14:35 |
| SRabbelier | lh: so all on the waiting list are guaranteed to be "available" | 14:35 |
| lh | SRabbelier: request to claim ! = claimed | 14:35 |
| SRabbelier | lh: oh, you can request to claim more than one? | 14:35 |
| lh | i bet that's not written correctly either | 14:35 |
| SRabbelier | lh: (no space between ! and =, but aside from that, it was :P) | 14:35 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: ROFLMAO | 14:35 |
| madrazr | :D :D :D | 14:35 |
| lh | SRabbelier: that's what we need to decide. i think if we are going to systematically enqueue requests to claim rather than making students do the legwork to keep an eye on tasks | 14:36 |
| lh | then we need to allow students to both waitlist their desire for a task *and* claim another in the interim | 14:36 |
| lh | if i am #4 on the waiting list for a task, i dont want to wait for it to open up, i want to go work on another one in the meantime | 14:36 |
| madrazr | lh: waitlist feature is upto you Lennie and all others to decide, it was just my suggestion | 14:36 |
| Lennie | lh: if you claim that other task you automatically get removed from the waiting list on others | 14:37 |
| Lennie | lh: since you can only subscribe to the ammount specified in the settings | 14:37 |
| lh | Lennie: then why have a wait list at all? | 14:37 |
| Lennie | *claim | 14:37 |
| lh | i guarantee if you are a student in a contest | 14:37 |
| lh | you want to get something done. now. so you get prizes. | 14:37 |
| MatthewWilkes | +1 - they were really pushing us to do code reviews more quickly last time | 14:38 |
| MatthewWilkes | even a few hours matters massively to these guys | 14:38 |
| lh | so they could go on to the next task | 14:38 |
| MatthewWilkes | yup | 14:38 |
| Lennie | okay so | 14:38 |
| lh | what may be more interesting | 14:38 |
| lh | and this is just a suggestion | 14:38 |
| Lennie | k, go ahead lh | 14:38 |
| lh | is the ability for students to say "i like this task" | 14:38 |
| lh | so that | 14:38 |
| lh | a) if orgs want to go to ghop students later and say, hey we have stuff to do in this area, not part of ghop, are you interested? they know who to go to | 14:39 |
| lh | and | 14:39 |
| lh | b) mentors can ping ghop students and say "hey i noticed you were interested in task foo. we just added a new task like foo, would you like to take a look at it?" | 14:39 |
| MatthewWilkes | similar to b - it gives us feedback on our tasks | 14:40 |
| MatthewWilkes | We can switch less popular ones out for more popular types | 14:40 |
| lh | this however is pretty darn ambitious and not strictly required for ghop, so i dont want to add work to an already full plate. | 14:40 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: that's an excellent point. | 14:40 |
| Lennie | sounds like something we should write down in the wiki but as a low priority | 14:40 |
| lh | Lennie: +1 | 14:40 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I have noted down | 14:40 |
| lh | madrazr: whatcha think? | 14:40 |
| solydzajs | Lennie: are you going to post notes from this meeting ? | 14:40 |
| * lh notes madrazr has noted | 14:40 | |
| Lennie | madrazr, the waitinlist idea sounds nice but it's not really suited for GHOP | 14:40 |
| madrazr | lh: yes I agree | 14:40 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yeah got it | 14:41 |
| Lennie | madrazr, will you update the wiki, it's your design doc :) | 14:41 |
| Lennie | solydzajs: yes | 14:41 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yes I have to. I will be doing it :) | 14:41 |
| solydzajs | Lennie: ok great | 14:41 |
| Lennie | madrazr, awesome lets keep going then | 14:41 |
| Lennie | so a student said he wanted to claim a task | 14:41 |
| Lennie | and what's next? | 14:41 |
| madrazr | Lennie: student works on the task | 14:41 |
| madrazr | and uploads his work as a file preferably (if this can be added in the timeline, issue 44 I guess) | 14:42 |
| * lh goes to look at issue 44 | 14:42 | |
| lh | one quick note | 14:42 |
| lh | task complete by times should be in hours. that way it's clear how long someone has to do something from the time the set was set as claimed. | 14:42 |
| Lennie | lh: how's legal with that? | 14:42 |
| madrazr | Lennie: lh said not to worry about legal issues for now, just go ahead and she will check with that | 14:43 |
| lh | Lennie: with the hours to complete task? they're fine with that, their requirement is we need a time limit, how we do that they dont care | 14:43 |
| madrazr | Lennie: it is said in the GHOP wiki | 14:43 |
| Lennie | lh: talking about uploading :) | 14:43 |
| Lennie | madrazr: I must have missed that, keep going | 14:43 |
| lh | Lennie: source code, unknown, have to find out but i think they will be OK with it. | 14:43 |
| lh | in the cases of large files, then it is OK to include a note saying that the work for this task is housed here | 14:44 |
| lh | provide a link | 14:44 |
| Lennie | lh: we'll have to 1MB limit for GAE | 14:44 |
| lh | and that suffices as turning in the work. but only in cases where the system cannot handle the actual work submitted. | 14:44 |
| Lennie | madrazr: So madrazr, I submit my work for review does something happen with the status of the task? | 14:44 |
| lh | in some cases, for example, work may be to correct all broken links on a wiki page. there is no work to upload then, so we just ask for a link to the corrected page with notes, e.g. Link A was broken, now points to www.example.com, which is the correct link | 14:44 |
| solydzajs | lh: if somebody cannot upload some work he should be able to link to it | 14:45 |
| lh | Lennie: i can see presentations, etc. being too big for that upload limit | 14:45 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: we could store files in parts? :P | 14:45 |
| lh | solydzajs: yes | 14:45 |
| solydzajs | SRabbelier: too much work | 14:45 |
| lh | SRabbelier: i love this idea for melange overall but agree with solydzajs that this is too ambitious for now | 14:45 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: rather I will put the question differently | 14:45 |
| SRabbelier | solydzajs: I think madrazr and Lennie should investigate this, rather than saying it's too much work right away, if it's at all possible to have something like that it could be very useful for Melange in general, right? | 14:46 |
| * lh holds up small sign "we have 15 minutes left for this meeting" | 14:46 | |
| Lennie | madrazr: So madrazr, I submit my work for review does something happen with the status of the task? | 14:46 |
| Lennie | we'll discuss files later! | 14:46 |
| lh | Lennie: +1 | 14:46 |
| madrazr | Lennie: no, just a notification is sent to who ever has subscirbed | 14:46 |
| Lennie | hmm | 14:47 |
| solydzajs | SRabbelier: I think that uploading of work is low priority right now, we should focus first on getting tagging, tasks etc and then investigate upload | 14:47 |
| lh | Lennie, madrazr: the way i see this working is | 14:47 |
| Lennie | madrazr: So no NeedsReview status? | 14:47 |
| lh | student submits work for review, sets status to needsreview | 14:47 |
| Lennie | that will help orgs track down what needs to be reviewed | 14:47 |
| lh | this pings mentors subscribed and org admin regardless of being subscribed or not | 14:48 |
| lh | to go take a look at the work and review it | 14:48 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Oh fine, I will note down that point. Did not think about it | 14:48 |
| madrazr | lh: ^ | 14:48 |
| lh | madrazr: kk, keep going | 14:48 |
| Lennie | madrazr: Okay the works needs review | 14:48 |
| Lennie | madrazr: two possible options, explain your ideas :) | 14:48 |
| madrazr | some automagic stuff should work here, they are already discussed | 14:48 |
| madrazr | setting restrictions to work on only 1 task per student and stuff | 14:49 |
| madrazr | finally the public view | 14:49 |
| madrazr | every one should be able to see all the tasks, and this view must have quite a good number of filters | 14:49 |
| madrazr | I will list the filters I have thought about till now | 14:49 |
| madrazr | 1. By Organization. 2. Difficulty level. 3. Type of Task 4. State of Task 5. Time required for completing it | 14:50 |
| madrazr | Newly Added? | 14:50 |
| madrazr | 6th one that is? | 14:50 |
| lh | madrazr: newly added is a great one | 14:50 |
| madrazr | lh: Lennie: also filter by student? | 14:50 |
| lh | madrazr: especially for "public" users - students will want to see what is new so they can decide what to work on | 14:50 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: the resrtiction to work on one task at a time should be configurable via Program Settings | 14:50 |
| Lennie | madrazr: explain? | 14:50 |
| lh | madrazr: let's ask MatthewWilkes - that was never important to me | 14:51 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: this is GHOP requirements but other program may have different role | 14:51 |
| solydzajs | rule | 14:51 |
| * MatthewWilkes tries to parse what the question is | 14:51 | |
| madrazr | solydzajs: ah Ok, but how do we implement it as a configurable option? | 14:51 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: filter the tasks by students was the question | 14:51 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: similar as we have it now for GSoC, let me explain | 14:51 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: is it required? | 14:51 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: would it be useful for you to be able to filter by student working on a particular task? | 14:51 |
| Lennie | madrazr: it's in the program model, lets keep talking about filters | 14:51 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: sure | 14:51 |
| MatthewWilkes | As long as we can see our lists, it should be fine | 14:52 |
| MatthewWilkes | An export in CSV format would be good | 14:52 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: we have property where you can define how many proposals can student submit and it's 20 for GSoC | 14:52 |
| madrazr | MatthewWilkes: I am asking for general public view | 14:52 |
| MatthewWilkes | ah, I see, not a big deal for me | 14:52 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: we can reuse this property to say how many tasks can student work on at a time | 14:52 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: Oh Ok got it. | 14:52 |
| lh | madrazr: ah, that's a different question than the one i thought you were asking. i would say no, do not display who is working on what in a public view page. | 14:52 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: is it also required to set no limit? | 14:52 |
| lh | no wait. | 14:52 |
| MatthewWilkes | That view would only be useful for pimping a student's participation | 14:52 |
| * lh needs to talk to legal about this | 14:52 | |
| solydzajs | madrazr: no limit of what ? | 14:53 |
| madrazr | lh: Oh Ok | 14:53 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: oh tasks ? | 14:53 |
| lh | we do need to publicize student participation, but it is tricky since they are minors. i will find out. | 14:53 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: yes | 14:53 |
| MatthewWilkes | So useful for picking grandprize winners or news stories, but I think we're fine doing that ourself | 14:53 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: yep 0 is no limit | 14:53 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: coolness! | 14:53 |
| madrazr | Lennie: btw I am done with my huge huge huge story :P | 14:53 |
| Lennie | madrazr: thanks give me a min to take it all in :) | 14:54 |
| lh | madrazr: for public view, we should also be able to filter tasks by organizations, e.g. maybe i only want to see ghop tasks for melange, but not for plone | 14:54 |
| * SRabbelier imitates the Lennie progress bar: stewing.... [========== ] 75% | 14:54 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: TBH it is just 20% of the 7 pages notes I have written down from yesterday evening :P | 14:54 |
| lh | madrazr: though some folks, like the press, will want to see all tasks and what is going on with them | 14:54 |
| * lh notes that madrazr is a design machine | 14:54 | |
| Lennie | lh: see his listing of views by org is number 1` | 14:54 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: are they in English? :P | 14:54 |
| madrazr | lh: yes thats included, see the first filter option | 14:55 |
| * lh reads scrollback | 14:55 | |
| lh | yes very good sorry i missed that | 14:55 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: yes, I can write tech things only in English :D | 14:55 |
| madrazr | lh: hope I get converted to coding machine too soon :P | 14:55 |
| Lennie | okay to summarize a bit it seems like the way to claim a task is a hot topic | 14:56 |
| lh | madrazr: i have faith in you | 14:56 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: sweet :), makes it easier to put it on a wiki :) | 14:56 |
| madrazr | lh: thanks | 14:56 |
| * madrazr listens to Lennie | 14:56 | |
| Lennie | oh the world will end according to christel :) | 14:56 |
| madrazr | ROFL :D | 14:56 |
| * SRabbelier is confused | 14:56 | |
| * SRabbelier does not want to die :( | 14:57 | |
| lh | lennie, christel the freenode admin? | 14:57 |
| Lennie | yes | 14:57 |
| Lennie | global notice | 14:57 |
| Lennie | anyhow | 14:57 |
| SRabbelier | why didn I get this notice :( | 14:57 |
| lh | me either | 14:57 |
| lh | Lennie: apparently the world ends only for you | 14:57 |
| MatthewWilkes | Might be in a different window, I got it | 14:57 |
| Lennie | madrazr will update the wiki and open up new ones where he finds necessary | 14:57 |
| madrazr | lh: SRabbelier: you are not my mentors thats why :P | 14:57 |
| * SRabbelier nods sagely | 14:58 | |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: that must be it | 14:58 |
| * lh nods with SRabbelier | 14:58 | |
| madrazr | HA HA :D | 14:58 |
| Lennie | so we can comment on it where we find necessary :) | 14:58 |
| * lh likes this idea | 14:58 | |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: please to add wiki ToC thingies ktnx? :D | 14:58 |
| Lennie | There is one thing I would like to discuss about the workflow that I've missed | 14:58 |
| Lennie | or atleast something that is unclear to me | 14:58 |
| Lennie | when a student has submitted work | 14:59 |
| Lennie | the tasks needsreview | 14:59 |
| solydzajs | yes | 14:59 |
| Lennie | we will allow for 3 possible outcomes of these (excluding a lazy org who takes no action) | 14:59 |
| Lennie | 1. succeed student can claim another task | 14:59 |
| Lennie | 2. Failure, the tasks needs some more work by the same student (possibly the NeedsWork tag) | 15:00 |
| Lennie | the student cannot claim another task | 15:00 |
| lh | Lennie: student cannot claim new task until state is set from needs review to closed | 15:00 |
| * lh realizes this is what lennie said, shuts up | 15:00 | |
| Lennie | 3. complete failure orgs want someone else to try, putting it on reopen | 15:00 |
| Lennie | right? | 15:01 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: can we call state 3 EpicFailure? pretty please? with cherries on top? (A) | 15:01 |
| Lennie | :D | 15:01 |
| lh | Lennie: yes. | 15:01 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:01 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: see, lh agrees! :P | 15:01 |
| Lennie | madrazr, you got that :)? | 15:01 |
| lh | SRabbelier: no we cannot. these are kids. we want them to feel good. | 15:01 |
| * SRabbelier pouts | 15:01 | |
| lh | SRabbelier: pout all you want. | 15:01 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I am reading 1 min | 15:01 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I did not get your 3rd point | 15:01 |
| madrazr | explain again please | 15:01 |
| SRabbelier | lh: :D you protect your kids, I know :) | 15:01 |
| lh | my guests are falling asleep. :) | 15:02 |
| MatthewWilkes | Lennie: State 2 also can go to extending the deadline by 24 hours | 15:02 |
| MatthewWilkes | (optionally) | 15:02 |
| lh | SRabbelier: yes yes i do. | 15:02 |
| *** mak89 has joined #melange | 15:02 | |
| Lennie | MatthewWilkes, how about optional ammount of hours? | 15:02 |
| MatthewWilkes | I think it's 24 or nothing | 15:02 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: it is 24 or nothing. | 15:02 |
| Lennie | shouldn't orgs be able to decide this? | 15:02 |
| lh | the reason why is | 15:02 |
| lh | no! | 15:02 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:02 |
| Lennie | ^_ ^ | 15:02 |
| lh | so let's say i am flake smith | 15:02 |
| lh | i claim a task | 15:02 |
| lh | it has a time limit of 48 hours | 15:02 |
| lh | 48 hours comes by | 15:02 |
| lh | mentor sets to needsreview | 15:02 |
| lh | must see something within 24 hours | 15:03 |
| lh | i, flakey smith, do not submit anything | 15:03 |
| lh | mentor reopens taks | 15:03 |
| Lennie | you lost me there... | 15:03 |
| Lennie | 48h go by and then a MENTOR has to set it to needsreview? | 15:03 |
| lh | this keeps students from claiming tasks and never doing anything about it | 15:03 |
| madrazr | me too :P | 15:03 |
| MatthewWilkes | I think "needsreview" was "ActionNeeded" | 15:03 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: correct, sorry | 15:03 |
| lh | madrazr, Lennie ^^ | 15:03 |
| Lennie | NeedsWork == ActionNeeded? | 15:04 |
| madrazr | lh: Ok | 15:04 |
| * lh makes note, 4 cups of coffee is not enough | 15:04 | |
| lh | needswork = work submitted was good, but needs more | 15:04 |
| lh | actionneeded = where the heck is the work for this? | 15:04 |
| Lennie | they both do a 24h extension? | 15:04 |
| madrazr | lh: shouldn't what you told be automated? | 15:04 |
| lh | needswork = extension # of hours that the org wants | 15:04 |
| lh | madrazr: the where the heck is the work for this should be automated, yes. | 15:04 |
| * lh forgot we can now automate things. praise melange. | 15:05 | |
| Lennie | [21:02:32] [@Lennie] shouldn't orgs be able to decide this? | 15:05 |
| Lennie | [21:02:33] [@lh] the reason why is | 15:05 |
| Lennie | [21:02:36] [@lh] no! | 15:05 |
| SRabbelier | lh: but ActionNeeded is just 24h extension? | 15:05 |
| Lennie | hmm, I was talking about option 2 where the work suckedd :P | 15:05 |
| lh | ActionNeeded = 24 hours to turn something in, correct. | 15:05 |
| Lennie | and you said no | 15:05 |
| MatthewWilkes | Hold on, ActionNeeded isn't always an extension | 15:05 |
| MatthewWilkes | It means "24 hours before we close your ass down" | 15:05 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: but technically that is a 24 hour extension. but your synopsis is correct. | 15:05 |
| MatthewWilkes | that can happen automatically at T-24hours | 15:05 |
| lh | correct. | 15:06 |
| SRabbelier | no wait | 15:06 |
| madrazr | lh: MatthewWilkes: 24hrs is a hard set limit, or mentors/OA's can decide it? | 15:06 |
| lh | Lennie: ok, now i see what you are saying. it is up to the orgs to say how much more time to give a student where the work does not meet expectations but is getting there | 15:06 |
| SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: is talking about setting to ActionNeeded at T-24 | 15:06 |
| MatthewWilkes | Last year we had no automatics, so he way we did extensions was to set ActionNeeded later | 15:06 |
| lh | madrazr: in the "we are going to shut your ass down" case, it's 24 hours. period. | 15:06 |
| SRabbelier | lh: is talking about setting to ActionNeeded at T0 | 15:06 |
| lh | NeedsMore = org sets time limit. | 15:07 |
| Lennie | summary: Student does not submit work before deadline, ActionNeeded+24h extension? | 15:07 |
| lh | ActionNeeded = give me something within 24 hours or this task isn't yours anymore | 15:07 |
| lh | Lennie: correct. | 15:07 |
| Lennie | Student submits work that's not there yet, X hours extension decided by the one reviewing the work | 15:07 |
| lh | correct | 15:07 |
| MatthewWilkes | ok | 15:07 |
| MatthewWilkes | Sounds good | 15:07 |
| madrazr | lh: Lennie: cool! | 15:07 |
| *** mak89 has left #melange | 15:08 | |
| lh | Lennie: excellent summary of my disjointed thoughts, thank you. | 15:08 |
| madrazr | Oh we scared him ^ :D | 15:08 |
| lh | melange is not for the faint of heart. nor are gsoc and ghop. | 15:08 |
| madrazr | he was one of the students whom I had tricked to contribute to Melange :P | 15:08 |
| lh | madrazr: crap. | 15:09 |
| lh | mak89, come back!! | 15:09 |
| lh | we will send chocolates. | 15:09 |
| madrazr | lh: anyways continue | 15:09 |
| * SRabbelier chuckles | 15:09 | |
| lh | madrazr: i didn't have anything else to say. | 15:09 |
| lh | Lennie: your meeting, what next? | 15:09 |
| * Lennie grabs his notebook | 15:09 | |
| Lennie | ah yeah, priorities | 15:10 |
| Lennie | we'll talk more about that later on | 15:10 |
| Lennie | but what we'd expect after your project is the following | 15:10 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yeah? | 15:10 |
| Lennie | GHOP workflow implementation including notificiation where needed | 15:11 |
| Lennie | + access controls for the views that come with it | 15:11 |
| Lennie | including the X maximum number of claimed tasks | 15:11 |
| Lennie | and the discussed public view :) | 15:11 |
| Lennie | *including the X maximum number of claimed tasks per student | 15:12 |
| Lennie | those are the priorities :D | 15:12 |
| Lennie | we can do feature fest later on | 15:12 |
| lh | X maximum number of claimed tasks per student = 1 at a time | 15:12 |
| Lennie | yeah for GHOP | 15:12 |
| Lennie | but it's a setting :) | 15:12 |
| madrazr | lh: customizable in LH View page :P | 15:13 |
| lh | Lennie: ah, brilliant. dank u well. | 15:13 |
| lh | madrazr: beautiful. | 15:13 |
| Lennie | one l too much, but thanks :D | 15:13 |
| lh | i tried. | 15:13 |
| Lennie | lh: I'm correct in saying we want something that can run GSoC atleast as good as last year with the ability to grow into more right? | 15:14 |
| SRabbelier | lh: s/well/wel/, *ducks* | 15:14 |
| lh | Lennie: correct. | 15:14 |
| lh | Lennie: where gsoc here means ghop right? :) | 15:14 |
| Lennie | o yeah :P | 15:14 |
| Lennie | fial | 15:14 |
| Lennie | fail* | 15:14 |
| * SRabbelier rofls | 15:14 | |
| lh | i knew what you meant. | 15:14 |
| Lennie | :) | 15:14 |
| Lennie | madrazr, any questions now? | 15:14 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: be glad lh has amazing mind-reading powerzz beyond all that is known to man! :P | 15:14 |
| madrazr | Lennie: there were around 10 I had written down, let me see which are not answered yet | 15:15 |
| lh | SRabbelier: that's because i am a girl dude. comes with the territory. | 15:15 |
| madrazr | Lennie: 1 min | 15:15 |
| Lennie | okay awesome madrazr | 15:15 |
| *** penyaskito has quit IRC | 15:15 | |
| MatthewWilkes | lh: I call sexism! | 15:15 |
| SRabbelier | lh: ah, made of win then, we need more of these girl wonders! :P | 15:15 |
| madrazr | Q1. Should we allow students to add arbit tags? | 15:15 |
| SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: bewarlol | 15:16 |
| madrazr | also what about mentors? | 15:16 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: okay fine, it is not because i am a girl, it's because i am a people geek. happy now. | 15:16 |
| MatthewWilkes | lh: Very :) | 15:16 |
| lh | madrazr: what about them? | 15:16 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: done then, yw. | 15:16 |
| SRabbelier | lh: in that case, we need more of these people geek wonders! :P | 15:16 |
| lh | SRabbelier: good luck, i have no idea how i got them. | 15:16 |
| madrazr | lh: should we allow students to add arbitrary tags? the text box for tags I was telling in the beginning | 15:16 |
| madrazr | ? | 15:16 |
| lh | madrazr: no i do not think we should allow students to add arbitrary tags. | 15:17 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes, solydzajs: you've also done this before. thoughts? | 15:17 |
| * lh has visions of awful tags like "FuckYou" popping into her head | 15:17 | |
| madrazr | lh: should we allow mentors to add those tags? | 15:17 |
| lh | madrazr: yes, definitely. | 15:17 |
| solydzajs | lh: we shouldn't allow students to add arbitrary tags | 15:17 |
| SRabbelier | lh: proposed tags then? | 15:17 |
| SRabbelier | lh: that mentors can they click on so that theyŕe added? | 15:18 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: Ok cool thanks | 15:18 |
| lh | SRabbelier: this is possible, but what is the use case for students adding tags? | 15:18 |
| SRabbelier | lh: wiki style ftw | 15:18 |
| lh | SRabbelier: i think this just creates more work for the mentors to approve these tags | 15:18 |
| solydzajs | yes lets keep it simple | 15:18 |
| lh | SRabbelier: i think this just adds complexity while not adding a lot of value. if a student really wants to see a tag added, they can ask a mentor to do it. | 15:18 |
| SRabbelier | lh: ok :) | 15:18 |
| madrazr | ready for Q2? :P | 15:19 |
| * lh thinks mentors did a really good job of tagging before and adding tags when needed and asked to | 15:19 | |
| lh | madrazr: go | 15:19 |
| madrazr | lh: how should we handle mentors assignment to tasks? Should org admins be able to assign them as soon as the task is created? | 15:20 |
| madrazr | also like in GSoC, should mentors be able to click a button reading, "I am willing to mentor this task" | 15:20 |
| madrazr | ? | 15:20 |
| lh | madrazr: optimal is that the task is assigned to whomever creates it. | 15:20 |
| lh | so if i am a mentor | 15:20 |
| lh | i want to submit a certain task | 15:20 |
| lh | much easier if it is just assigned to me | 15:20 |
| lh | however, org admin should also be able to assign a task to a particular mentor | 15:21 |
| lh | and in this case | 15:21 |
| lh | i am not sure that we need to have mentors volunteer on a per task basis. | 15:21 |
| *** Merio has joined #melange | 15:21 | |
| MatthewWilkes | I'm with solydzajs - students don't need to tag tasks | 15:21 |
| lh | Lennie: is now a good time to bring up autoupload of a task list? | 15:21 |
| Lennie | lh: rather not :) | 15:22 |
| lh | a lot of folks wanted to create tasks list in a spreadsheet and then do bulk upload. this may or may not be possible. | 15:22 |
| lh | Lennie: done, i am shutting the f up | 15:22 |
| Lennie | lh: add it to the wiki please | 15:22 |
| lh | Lennie: will do. | 15:22 |
| Lennie | lh: so we can refine and discuss it there, we are talking about task mentoring | 15:22 |
| lh | done | 15:22 |
| Lennie | each task should have a mentor right? Some sort of guidance/contact point to which students can go | 15:23 |
| madrazr | lh: it is better to put it on the roadmap, along with all the Calendar, GDocs intergration stuff I think | 15:23 |
| madrazr | Lennie: solydzajs: SRabbelier: what do you think? ^ | 15:23 |
| lh | So org admins for ghop should just be able to assign tasks to a mentor. the mentor step to claim willingness to mentor is extra overhead which is not necessary here i think | 15:23 |
| lh | madrazr: will do. | 15:23 |
| lh | wait. | 15:23 |
| lh | madrazr: this is pretty ghop specific though. just a thought. | 15:23 |
| madrazr | lh: Ok fine. I will put it in GHOP doc then | 15:24 |
| Lennie | put it under GHOP for now | 15:24 |
| madrazr | fine | 15:24 |
| solydzajs | we should think about uploading CSV by organization and processing it with Jobs later | 15:24 |
| solydzajs | that way we can solve bulk upload of tasks | 15:24 |
| solydzajs | just a thought | 15:24 |
| lh | madrazr: i will add notes there. | 15:24 |
| solydzajs | but I think it's important | 15:24 |
| lh | solydzajs: agreed. will add notes to wiki. | 15:25 |
| Lennie | just not in the scope of this meeting | 15:25 |
| Lennie | each task should have a mentor right? Some sort of guidance/contact point to which students can go | 15:25 |
| lh | Lennie: agreed, sorry i added this distraction. let's move on. | 15:25 |
| madrazr | Lennie: it is an NTH? | 15:25 |
| lh | Lennie: that is correct. | 15:25 |
| Lennie | madrazr, yes certainly it is not a <MUST> | 15:25 |
| Lennie | but high up on the NTH :) | 15:25 |
| madrazr | Lennie: cool | 15:25 |
| madrazr | heh OK :D | 15:25 |
| Lennie | since tasks can become cumbersome | 15:26 |
| madrazr | ok | 15:26 |
| Lennie | madrazr, all tasks should have a mentor assigned upon creation | 15:26 |
| Lennie | just to make it clear it seems like we decided on three power levels within orgs at the start of the meeting | 15:26 |
| Lennie | org admins: Can create task and assign to everyone | 15:27 |
| Lennie | mentors with some special power: create task assigned only to themself | 15:27 |
| Lennie | mentors: can be a mentor cannot create task | 15:27 |
| lh | Lennie: i think we should only have one class of mentors. likely easier. | 15:28 |
| Lennie | this 3-way split seemed to be what was suggested? | 15:28 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:28 |
| Lennie | all mentors should be able to create tasks then? | 15:28 |
| Lennie | only assigned to themself | 15:28 |
| Lennie | or none? | 15:28 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I think MatthewWilkes suggested that tasks can be created by all mentors but must be approved by org admins | 15:28 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:28 |
| Lennie | MatthewWilkes, is that a correct summary of what you want? | 15:28 |
| * lh read it that way before | 15:28 | |
| Lennie | *blames language barrier*, I brought it up for a reason :) | 15:29 |
| Lennie | while we wait for a response | 15:29 |
| Lennie | I have one more possible issue to address | 15:29 |
| MatthewWilkes | Lennie: Yes,that's right | 15:29 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:29 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yeah? | 15:29 |
| Lennie | so we'll give mentors the ability to create a task | 15:29 |
| Lennie | that needs approval by org admins | 15:29 |
| solydzajs | orgs needs to have a bulk accept button for tasks then | 15:30 |
| lh | +1 | 15:30 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: noted | 15:30 |
| Lennie | lh: +1 on... | 15:30 |
| lh | Lennie: +1 on bulk accept for tasks by org admins. for example | 15:30 |
| lh | if you know Mentor 1 really well, why not just bulk accept? but if you dont know mentor 2 as well, you may want to review all tasks submitted by her on a task by task basis | 15:31 |
| Lennie | so you want the ability to bulk accept per mentor | 15:31 |
| Lennie | that's more specific than what was suggested :) | 15:31 |
| lh | Lennie: if it's too hard to do it that way, then don't do it. | 15:31 |
| kblin | Lennie: checkboxes? | 15:31 |
| lh | kblin: good suggestion | 15:32 |
| MatthewWilkes | checkboxes would be my preferred option | 15:32 |
| Lennie | kblin, lovely | 15:32 |
| MatthewWilkes | better than per-mentoer | 15:32 |
| lh | actually i think it's a great idea to do both | 15:32 |
| lh | for example | 15:32 |
| lh | checkboxes for all tasks | 15:32 |
| lh | with a button | 15:32 |
| lh | select all tasks for mentor = name | 15:32 |
| * Lennie notes that whatever solves issue 201 must be able to display HTML elements as well | 15:32 | |
| lh | then you can bulk accept on a per mentor basis | 15:32 |
| lh | but still easily do individual reviews | 15:33 |
| lh | would this be reasonable? | 15:33 |
| madrazr | Lennie: is not possible to add checkboxes until 201 is solved? | 15:33 |
| Lennie | madrazr, it is | 15:33 |
| * lh goes to take another look at issue 201 | 15:33 | |
| SRabbelier | lh: ajaxy talbe views | 15:33 |
| Lennie | madrazr, just saying that the ajaxy list should not break this functionality :) | 15:33 |
| lh | SRabbelier: i knew it. | 15:33 |
| madrazr | Lennie: ah Ok | 15:33 |
| madrazr | lh: you must be knowing. This is Melange's most popular issue :P | 15:34 |
| lh | madrazr: it's my most popular issue too. | 15:34 |
| Lennie | yeah, I've asked Merio to reply to the latest thread ont he mailing list about it | 15:34 |
| Lennie | so | 15:34 |
| Lennie | this acceptance list | 15:34 |
| Lennie | should be high up the list of things to havee | 15:35 |
| Lennie | but should not be a showstopper :D | 15:35 |
| Lennie | workflow basics go first afaiac | 15:35 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Ok | 15:35 |
| Lennie | as far as I am concerned :) | 15:35 |
| Lennie | we'll need to define these priorities within the next weeks | 15:36 |
| madrazr | sure, I have noted down the priorities you mentioned very early in this meeting :P | 15:36 |
| Lennie | ^^ | 15:36 |
| Lennie | awesome | 15:36 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:36 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Ok | 15:36 |
| lh | Lennie: correct. if a problem can be solved by social means, in my book any code becomes a nice to have. | 15:36 |
| Lennie | one last issue I wanted to address | 15:36 |
| Lennie | so | 15:36 |
| Lennie | we have students | 15:36 |
| Lennie | stating that they want to claim a task | 15:36 |
| Lennie | which locks out any other student from claiming the same task | 15:36 |
| Lennie | how will we safeguard against annoying students who keep claiming the same tasks that orgs dont want that person to take anymore? | 15:37 |
| Lennie | (this is why I liked the waiting list idea) | 15:37 |
| lh | Lennie: that's a social problem. mentors have to talk to the students. | 15:38 |
| lh | in this case, here's where the grand prize comes in handy | 15:38 |
| Lennie | okay you want to leave that to social conventions? | 15:38 |
| lh | if you are being annoying and not doing what your mentors ask, chances are pretty darn good that you aren't going to get the grand prize. so why would you piss off your mentors? | 15:38 |
| lh | you are disincentivized to do so. | 15:38 |
| lh | Lennie: i think we can leave that to social convention, yes. | 15:38 |
| Lennie | okay fine | 15:39 |
| SRabbelier | lh: what about destructive students in general, do we need some sort of "ban from program" feature? | 15:39 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: those rare cases we can handle through datastore I think | 15:39 |
| madrazr | lh: but still, by locking down other students are at loss | 15:39 |
| lh | SRabbelier: good question. they could always just create a new google account and come back. let it ride. solve socially. | 15:39 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: put them on inactive :) | 15:39 |
| Lennie | and idd google accounts are free :P | 15:39 |
| madrazr | lh: we need some way of stopping the annoying students | 15:39 |
| SRabbelier | lh: ok, for sure :) | 15:39 |
| Lennie | we are not IP-banning :D | 15:39 |
| solydzajs | yep, we didn't have that kind of problem in last year GHOP | 15:39 |
| lh | madrazr: it's only one task that is effected. it is suboptimal, but unlikely to happen also. | 15:40 |
| madrazr | Lennie: LoL! | 15:40 |
| solydzajs | if I remember correctly | 15:40 |
| Lennie | madrazr: we can ban users in melange dont worry | 15:40 |
| Lennie | any more questions madrazr? | 15:40 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yes 2 more | 15:40 |
| Lennie | ok | 15:40 |
| madrazr | lh: do we have upper age limit for students? | 15:41 |
| Lennie | *do we want to enforce this limit | 15:41 |
| Lennie | through code | 15:41 |
| lh | madrazr: one sec | 15:41 |
| Lennie | you mean? | 15:41 |
| madrazr | Lennie: if yes that is | 15:41 |
| madrazr | :P | 15:41 |
| madrazr | Lennie: If upper limit exists, I wanted to ask that question | 15:41 |
| solydzajs | i dont think it does | 15:42 |
| * Lennie is back in 1 min | 15:42 | |
| lh | madrazr: have to be at least 13 years of age and enrolled in pre-university educational program, we do not have upper age limit afaict in rules but still looking | 15:42 |
| Lennie | do we want to enforce the lower age limit? | 15:43 |
| Lennie | through code | 15:43 |
| Lennie | instead of running reports | 15:43 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yes I think | 15:43 |
| madrazr | Lennie: it is mentioned in the Wiki page | 15:43 |
| madrazr | Lennie: GHOP Melange should have a special configuration page where you can setup dates like : dates: when contest begins , when contest ends, what is the age (range) of the students that can participate for example: thirteen (13) years of age or older on November 27, 2007 (this date would be setup in configuration page and once student fill in profile data you can automagically check whether he can participate in contest | 15:43 |
| lh | Lennie: you have to, no choice | 15:43 |
| Lennie | okay | 15:44 |
| Lennie | so that's a yes :) | 15:44 |
| Lennie | anything else madrazr? | 15:44 |
| madrazr | last question ... | 15:44 |
| madrazr | What should list of participating org list contain | 15:45 |
| madrazr | ? | 15:45 |
| madrazr | like for GSoC we had links pointing to ideas page | 15:45 |
| lh | madrazr: a simple overview page would be good, which also has a list of tasks on it. | 15:46 |
| lh | something like the organization home pages i would think, but there may be a much better way to do this | 15:46 |
| madrazr | lh: you want to point those list items to somewhere? | 15:46 |
| Lennie | list of tasks I guess | 15:47 |
| madrazr | Lennie: filtered by Organization? | 15:47 |
| lh | madrazr: list of tasks --> each tasks listing | 15:47 |
| madrazr | Ok | 15:47 |
| Lennie | yes for the specific org you clicked on | 15:47 |
| lh | think this page | 15:47 |
| Lennie | right...? | 15:47 |
| lh | http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/google | 15:47 |
| tpb | <http://ln-s.net/3:++> (at socghop.appspot.com) | 15:47 |
| lh | but instead of a list of accepted projects on it, there's a task list | 15:48 |
| lh | we would also need a page doing nothing but listing all tasks, an aggregated list from each org | 15:48 |
| madrazr | lh: fine | 15:48 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I am done with my questions ... | 15:48 |
| madrazr | </overview> | 15:48 |
| madrazr | :D | 15:48 |
| Lennie | any questions from the audience then? SRabbelier, solydzajs, lh | 15:48 |
| Lennie | or anybody else for that matter :D | 15:49 |
| * lh is hapy | 15:49 | |
| lh | happy even | 15:49 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: looks like you guys have this worked out :D | 15:49 |
| Lennie | SRabbelier: not there yet, but you cant do it all in one go | 15:49 |
| Lennie | madrazr, looking awesome! | 15:49 |
| SRabbelier | Lennie: the part that we just talked about that is | 15:49 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: yes, you know right, what Lennie is ... An horror movie actor :P | 15:49 |
| madrazr | he used to scare me :D | 15:49 |
| Lennie | :D | 15:49 |
| Lennie | indeed | 15:50 |
| MatthewWilkes | :) | 15:50 |
| Lennie | MatthewWilkes, you has a happy :D? | 15:50 |
| Lennie | madrazr, when will you have updated the wiki? 48h good enough? | 15:50 |
| MatthewWilkes | Lennie: I am indeed! | 15:50 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I think so | 15:50 |
| madrazr | Lennie: hopefully nothing else comes in between | 15:50 |
| Lennie | I will post the meeting notes within the next 48h since I'm quite busy tomorrow | 15:51 |
| * lh will get a meeting with legal this week | 15:51 | |
| Lennie | madrazr, lets hope not I like to see the updates :) | 15:51 |
| Lennie | dont forget | 15:51 |
| Lennie | we got a conference call tomorrow @ 18.00 UTC | 15:51 |
| solydzajs | Lennie: no more questions from me :-) | 15:51 |
| Lennie | all students are welcome to join in :) | 15:51 |
| madrazr | Lennie: sure, but PulseAudio sucks!!! | 15:51 |
| * madrazr runs | 15:51 | |
| Lennie | Skype kinda required :D | 15:51 |
| madrazr | Lennie: LoL! kinda? | 15:52 |
| Lennie | I hereby close this meeting, next meeting about GHOP will be schelduled within next two weeks (probably sooner depending on progress/discussion within the Wiki) | 15:52 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 15:52 |
| solydzajs | ok so the meeting is over ? | 15:53 |
| lh | Lennie: i will make it as long as i am not in los angeles | 15:53 |
| solydzajs | ok | 15:53 |
| Lennie | lh: okay | 15:53 |
| solydzajs | :-) | 15:53 |
| Lennie | lh: you are open for mails by madrazr right? | 15:53 |
| lh | Lennie: always. | 15:53 |
| Lennie | lh: good | 15:53 |
| madrazr | lh: awesome! | 15:53 |
| lh | Lennie: can't guarantee that i will check mail while in LAX, but will totally try | 15:53 |
| solydzajs | ok ttyl guys | 15:53 |
| lh | i hate to be a pita | 15:53 |
| * madrazr wishes to visit LA once at least :P | 15:53 | |
| lh | but whenever possible | 15:53 |
| Lennie | ttyl solydzajs | 15:53 |
| lh | emails on list! | 15:53 |
| lh | i am not the only one who knows stuff | 15:53 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes knows stuff too. so do a lot of other ghop people | 15:53 |
| Lennie | yeah but you are the customer :D | 15:54 |
| Lennie | some questions should go to you | 15:54 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: thanks a lot | 15:54 |
| *** solydzajs has quit IRC | 15:54 | |
| Lennie | others should be on the list | 15:54 |
| Lennie | atleast that's my pov | 15:54 |
| lh | Lennie: i am going to invite them to join the discussions :) | 15:54 |
| Lennie | madrazr, we'll have to discuss tags later | 15:54 |
| lh | it's on my to do list | 15:54 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Oh yeah | 15:54 |
| madrazr | Lennie: and work submissions too | 15:55 |
| Lennie | madrazr, having meetings +2h is not productive | 15:55 |
| Lennie | heck +1h is close to losing attention :) | 15:55 |
| MatthewWilkes | LA is nice - there's a restaurant that does a cookie pizza | 15:55 |
| Lennie | madrazr, okay noted | 15:55 |
| MatthewWilkes | i.e. a pizza with a cookie base and sweet toppings | 15:55 |
| * lh is going for class reunion | 15:55 | |
| lh | okay folks, i gotta jam. sorry. have houseguests. | 15:55 |
| lh | will take care of my action items. | 15:55 |
| lh | :) | 15:55 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I already lost it quite a few times :P | 15:55 |
| MatthewWilkes | have fun, lh | 15:55 |
| Lennie | we'll have to wait for legal about submission | 15:55 |
| lh | MatthewWilkes: thank you | 15:55 |
| madrazr | lh: see you thanks a lot | 15:55 |
| madrazr | lh: have a nice day! | 15:55 |
| lh | Lennie: i can have an answer for you on that stuff in days | 15:55 |
| madrazr | Lennie: yeah Ok | 15:56 |
| lh | madrazr: thank you, sleep well my frined | 15:56 |
| lh | thanks all! | 15:56 |
| *** lh has left #melange | 15:56 | |
| madrazr | Lennie: we will discuss about tags whenever you are free | 15:56 |
| Lennie | yeah | 15:56 |
| Lennie | hmm | 15:56 |
| Lennie | bleh | 15:57 |
| Lennie | slap me tomorrow :) | 15:57 |
| Lennie | then we can discuss when :P | 15:57 |
| madrazr | Lennie: LoL! :D | 15:57 |
| Lennie | I have other issues to deal with atm :D | 15:57 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Ok | 15:57 |
| madrazr | Lennie: other as in? outside Melange? | 15:57 |
| Lennie | hmm | 15:57 |
| Lennie | both | 15:57 |
| madrazr | Lennie: Ok | 15:57 |
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| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o solydzajs | 16:04 | |
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| madrazr | solydzajs: how about starting a common calendar for all Melange meetings? or as SRabbelier suggested the other day use the GOSPO calendar? | 16:09 |
| solydzajs | lh: replied to your email | 16:09 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: Lennie: ^ if you are around | 16:09 |
| solydzajs | madrazr: yes like I said it's on my todo list, be patient | 16:09 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: I like :) | 16:09 |
| madrazr | solydzajs: Oh sorry for being impatient | 16:09 |
| * madrazr wants to steal some patience from SRabbelier :P | 16:10 | |
| * dr__house hands madrazr some patience pills! | 16:10 | |
| madrazr | dr__house: no I know how to take it. I will steal from SRabbelier :D | 16:10 |
| dr__house | btw, I'd like to introduce myself as madrazr's "No Power" friend :P | 16:10 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: Heh, I don have a lot :P | 16:10 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: like Ando before he became the crimson arc? :P | 16:11 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: what ever you have is enough already :P | 16:11 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: whats that? | 16:11 |
| madrazr | dr__house: Lennie is not around I guess, he was the one who named you as my "No power" friend :P | 16:12 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: you don watch Heroes? | 16:12 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: no | 16:12 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: for shame! | 16:12 |
| dr__house | madrazr: too bad :P | 16:12 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: LoL! | 16:12 |
| madrazr | dr__house: you watch? | 16:12 |
| dr__house | SRabbelier: he doesn't watch TV, he is insanely workaholic | 16:12 |
| dr__house | madrazr: not Heroes | 16:13 |
| dr__house | no | 16:13 |
| madrazr | dr__house: stupid | 16:13 |
| * SRabbelier chuckles | 16:13 | |
| dr__house | SRabbelier: yeah that too | 16:13 |
| Lennie | hi | 16:14 |
| Lennie | hi mister no power :D | 16:14 |
| dr__house | Lennie: hi | 16:15 |
| dr__house | :) | 16:15 |
| madrazr | Lennie: LoL!!! | 16:15 |
| Lennie | dr house? | 16:15 |
| Lennie | awesome :D | 16:15 |
| Lennie | Can I be Chase :P? | 16:15 |
| dr__house | Lennie: I am a huge fan | 16:15 |
| Lennie | wicked | 16:15 |
| Lennie | so am I :D | 16:15 |
| dr__house | Lennie: sure :D | 16:15 |
| Lennie | the whole world lies! | 16:15 |
| dr__house | Lennie: who's Cameron ;) | 16:16 |
| Lennie | lh :) | 16:16 |
| dr__house | Lennie: LOL! | 16:16 |
| Lennie | or she can be thirtheen :D | 16:16 |
| * dr__house searches for a Cuddy on the channel ;) | 16:16 | |
| Lennie | hahah | 16:16 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: you too House? :P | 16:16 |
| Lennie | lh can be cuddy too, she's can be the boss :D | 16:17 |
| Lennie | versatile lh :) | 16:17 |
| dr__house | Lennie: LOL!!:D:D | 16:17 |
| dr__house | Lennie: too bad someone had already taken drhouse and drHouse :( so I had to settle with the awkward dr__house | 16:17 |
| dr__house | :P | 16:17 |
| madrazr | Lennie: I am just going thru the logs, as to what to write in Notes. Hopefully I won't go mad and write this discussion of yours about House too :P | 16:18 |
| dr__house | madrazr: how much more mad can you get? | 16:18 |
| madrazr | dr__house: no actually __ is magic | 16:18 |
| madrazr | dr__house: Python ftw :P | 16:18 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: yup, I watch House too :P | 16:18 |
| madrazr | dr__house: but it should have been __drhouse__ actually :P | 16:18 |
| madrazr | SRabbelier: LoL! Ok. This becomes a Melange House gang then. | 16:19 |
| SRabbelier | madrazr: lol :D | 16:19 |
| madrazr | dr__house: first start contributing to Melange :P | 16:19 |
| Lennie | madrazr, you are making notes? | 16:19 |
| Lennie | madrazr, as in I dont have to post them | 16:19 |
| Lennie | ? | 16:19 |
| madrazr | Lennie: no no, I meant the design things | 16:19 |
| dr__house | madrazr: I thought people on this channel wished for Melange's success :P | 16:19 |
| madrazr | Lennie: to be put up on the wiki | 16:20 |
| Lennie | madrazr, okay :) | 16:20 |
| dr__house | madrazr: and you are asking me to contribute :P | 16:20 |
| madrazr | dr__house: Oh no, I realize now! Thanks goodness. Melange is saved. | 16:20 |
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| dr__house | moreover, I am not a champion of multitasking like you, madrazr | 16:22 |
| madrazr | dr__house: Ok enough period | 16:23 |
| * dr__house senses embarrassment in madrazr's words :P | 16:23 | |
| madrazr | :( | 16:24 |
| dr__house | ok enough of spamming the channel | 16:24 |
| * dr__house returns to work :P | 16:24 | |
| madrazr | dr__house: good to know | 16:25 |
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| Lennie | madrazr, ttyl :0 | 16:47 |
| Lennie | nn | 16:47 |
| madrazr | Lennie: good night | 16:47 |
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| MatthewWilkes | SRabbelier: I've just been playing with Melange a bit re functional testing. I've managed to get a setup going where there's a testcase which causes melange to start up a dev_appserver that everything's importable from and serves on 8080, but uses an ephemeral datastore. (doesn't touch the existing user's one) | 17:09 |
| MatthewWilkes | SRabbelier: Is that something that might end up being useful? | 17:09 |
| MatthewWilkes | SRabbelier: looks like http://pastie.textmate.org/467028 | 17:11 |
| tpb | Title: #467028 by Matthew Wilkes (matthewwilkes) - Pastie (at pastie.textmate.org) | 17:11 |
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| SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: sounds cute | 17:18 |
| SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: but, isn there an option to dev_appserver to specify which datastore to use? | 17:18 |
| SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: e.g., dev_appserver.py --datastore_path or such | 17:19 |
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| jamtoday | SRabbelier: there's history_path and datastore_path. | 17:56 |
| MatthewWilkes | jamtoday: Yes, but this sets the datastore to be a NamedTemporaryFile on each invocation of the unittest, there's no command line options, and no starting of a second process just to do ftests | 18:03 |
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