Thursday, 2009-04-30

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ErantSRabbelier: Something is wrong with the space-time continuum.04:18
SRabbelierErant: oh dear, you passed a class again?04:18
SRabbelierErant: me got a 704:19
SRabbelierErant: you?04:19
ErantI'm starting to get scared :(04:19
SRabbelierErant: nice04:19
ErantOh well. I'll enjoy the good fortune while it lasts. It can't last long. :P04:20
ErantI'm just kinda wondering what our m$-fanboi got.04:21
SRabbelierErant: d'ya think we passed the ethics paper too?04:21
SRabbelierErant: lol, yes04:21
ErantI think so, 'cuz there's no extra entries for this course in the ISP thingy04:21
ErantWM0328IN: ICT-Orientatie 4: Ethiek en recht voor informatici403-04-2009704:21
ErantThat's it.04:22
SRabbelierErant: hehe, woopdiedoo? :P04:22
ErantSo yay. :P04:22
Erantbtw, Fox IT looks like Google O_o04:22
ErantThere's like, food everywhere. And coffee.04:23
SRabbelierErant: pretty sweet, 20% time? :P04:24
ErantDepends on the workload04:24
SRabbelierErant: hehe04:26
ErantBut I wanna look at Festo first. Or BMW, or Mercedes.04:26
ErantI gotta talk to that Operating Systems guy. He was saying a lot of stuff about automotive, if I remember correctly.04:26
SRabbelierErant: lol, you want to make big money, no? :P04:28
ErantNot really.04:30
ErantI don't much care about money :)04:30
SRabbelierErant: I see :P04:32
SRabbelier*cough* spain *cough*04:32
SRabbelierErant: or was that not about the money? :P04:32
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ErantThat was different. :P04:34
solydzajsyo guys05:07
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solydzajsErant: I found nice sanitizer for HTML (including XSS)05:08
solydzajsErant: and all the javascript in href , src etc05:08
solydzajsErant: Festo looks interesting, I would go with BMW instead of Mercedes05:09
solydzajsErant: I think they innovative much more05:09
ErantThere's also Volvo, who does a lot of innovation.05:13
ErantNice work on the javascript btw :)05:13
ErantI'll have a go at doing some malformed tags.05:14
solydzajsErant: you are looking for a job or internship ?05:18
ErantI'm kinda doubting what I want to do though.05:20
ErantSecurity or mechatronics05:21
ErantSRabbelier: So now that we have ethics, we should discuss the ethical side of Melange.05:40
ErantOr possibly my ethics.05:42
SRabbelierErant: or possibly that you're not ethical? :p06:01
ErantThat's not a point of discussion.06:06
ErantThat's a fact. :P06:06
SRabbelierErant: true enough :P06:09
kblinErant: festo? aren't they into automation and hydraulics and stuff?06:12
kblinthat name somehow rings a bell06:13
SRabbelierkblin: they are06:15
Erantkblin: Yup.06:19
kblinso I guess the gf talked about them :)06:20
ErantShe an engineer?06:22
kblinstudying to be one, yes06:24
SRabbelierdanderson: GUI: HostKey could not be changed (2.2.0 regression, bugĀ #3689)06:34
SRabbelierdanderson: they fixed that in latest VirtualBox release, so I'm not entirely insane :P06:35
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tpb<> (at
SRabbelierErant: yeah, I read07:04
SRabbelierErant: seconded07:05
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madrazrSRabbelier: Hi08:42
SRabbeliermadrazr: heya!08:42
mithroSRabbelier: still no luck :(08:55
SRabbeliermithro: oh?09:05
SRabbeliermithro: ping09:07
mithroSRabbelier: pong09:07
SRabbeliermithro: I added tansell earlier, you don't have your accounts linked?09:07
mithroSRabbelier: no, I have a personal account and a work account09:08
SRabbeliermithro: ah, ok, added mithro too then09:08
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jameslevybrainstorming the specifications for the news feed framework, and the goal is to do it in an elegant and generalized manner so a bunch of rules and exceptions won't need to be hacked on later14:06
* jameslevy is quickly uploading a screengrab...14:06
jameslevy this is a simple concept mockup14:07
SRabbelierjameslevy: nice, do you have it past-... ah, nice14:07
SRabbelierjameslevy: what did you use to create this mockup? any code behind it, or just raw html?14:08
jameslevyNone that produced this html :)14:08
jameslevyAlthough I've been working on a decorator that can be added to a handler to add any entitity changes to the news feed14:09
jameslevyI'm not sure yet if that would be the best method14:09
SRabbelierjameslevy: you should probably do that in _onCreate/_onModify in logic14:09
SRabbelierjameslevy: what kind of speficiations were you thinking on?14:10
jameslevythose are in helpers?14:10
SRabbelierjameslevy: they're defined and hooked in soc.logic.models.base14:12
jameslevySRabbelier: Yes this would make sense for a good place for the hooks14:14
jameslevyIt doesn't look like there's an auto-updating modified property for entities, but maybe they're not defined in the models classes?14:15
SRabbelierjameslevy: methinks  the default _onCreate/_onModify methods we have now can add a call to some logic that checks if any feeds need to be updated14:15
SRabbelierjameslevy: they're not yet, no, but I was thinking of adding one, it's very convenient when wanting to keep up to date14:15
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jameslevyAssuming that it'll be relatively straightforward to add the hook to entity updates, the next step is permissions14:18
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SRabbelierjameslevy: make a 'spike solution' for that14:18
jameslevyThe easiest way to do this would be to create a master news feed, and then add logic to the news feed view regarding permissions14:18
SRabbelierjameslevy: just try hooking something in _onCreate/_onModify and see if it works as expected14:19
SRabbelierjameslevy: I think that's the only way it'd ever scale well14:19
SRabbelierjameslevy: (rather than having each change to a document have to update multiple feeds at once)14:19
jameslevySRabbelier: Absolutely agree14:19
jameslevyAnd then finally there's the possibility of allowing HTML templates to be used for customized story templates, but I think that can wait for now...ill just comment in how that would be implemented14:20
SRabbelierjameslevy: so what about acl?14:20
jameslevyI've worked with Django Granular Permissions before...thinking something like that14:21
jameslevyI want to design it to keep in the spirit of the existing methodologies of the codebase14:22
jameslevySo the permission could be accessed as a property of the model class14:23
jameslevywith the type of entity as the argument14:23
SRabbelierjameslevy: I don't understand your last line, the type of entity as argument to what?14:24
* SRabbelier will brb14:24
jameslevystudent = soc.models.student.Student14:25
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jameslevystudent.feed_permission(program) # returns False or student.feed_permission(program, True) # sets to True14:26
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jameslevyA lot of this can be modeled after notifications, but essentially the news feed would contain all changes unless you don't have permission to see them14:30
jameslevyAnother problem I'm concerned with is that the news feed will get flooded with unimportant information, and this is a bit harder to deal with than simple user permissions14:33
jameslevyAnd one solution is to limit the amount of news feed items for a particular entity to one every x hours. So if you update a document 10 times in an hour, it will only show the latest change14:35
* jameslevy will be back in ~ 15 minutes14:37
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SRabbelierwell that took a bit longer than expected14:57
SRabbelierjameslevy: ping14:57
SRabbelierjameslevy: we have all our logic code in the logic module, so it would be feed_logic.has_permission(student, program) and feed_logic.set_permission(student, program)15:04
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jameslevySRabbelier: So something like logic/feeds.py15:13
SRabbelierjameslevy: yes, or perhaps just logic/models/feeds.py15:13
SRabbelierjameslevy: we have more model-specific logic in some of the logic.models modules already anyway15:14
jameslevyRight. That makes sense. Would you recommend I go ahead and code a prototype?15:14
jameslevyThat would probably be the best way for me to discover any issues I haven't yet thought of15:15
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SRabbelierjameslevy: I think it'd be good to at least hook in the model, logic, and view, you should be able to do that in a day or so, there's not a lot of "boilerplate" code needed to add a new entity :)15:19
SRabbelierjameslevy: it wouldn't be able to do much ofcourse, mostly just create/edit/list/delete functionality with a form15:20
jameslevySRabbelier: Why would a form be necessary?15:21
jameslevyYou just mean any form related to a document?15:22
SRabbelierjameslevy: it's not, you get it for free :P15:22
SRabbelierjameslevy: (the kind of form you get when editing a Melange document, or student profile, etc)15:22
jameslevySRabbelier: Okay, just wanted to make sure I understood15:24
SRabbelierjameslevy: np15:24
jameslevyOkay so this should be reasonably straightforward...and I'll ping you if I have any other questions....15:26
SRabbelierjameslevy: ok, would you be ok with scheduling a meeting tomorrow evening to discuss the scope and aim of your GSoC project (wrt Quiz/Surveys)?15:28
jameslevySame time?15:31
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SRabbelierjameslevy: around now probably, let me check15:33
SRabbelierjameslevy: how about the usual meeting time, 6pm UTC (which is when we started our 'brainstorm' meeting)15:35
SRabbelierjameslevy: do you use Google Calendar?15:35
jameslevyI do15:36
SRabbelierjameslevy: what account should I send the invite to?15:36
SRabbelierjameslevy: (you can pm me)15:36
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dandersondurin42: seen ?16:24
tpbTitle: Hg-Git Mercurial Plugin (at
durin42danderson: look at the commit history ;)16:26
durin42I'm in on it.16:26
dandersonYou're at github?!16:26
danderson"This plugin was developed by the folks at GitHub"16:27
dandersonwhich is why I'm confused :)16:27
durin42I'm the world expert in "bolt random VCS tool onto hg"16:27
durin42and thus make nothing in consulting fees, but get shiny tools by answering questions16:27
durin42Scott has said he owes me a truckload of beer16:27
durin42because I'm the one writing tests16:27
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durin42danderson: they're doing the grunt work, so I don't mind them taking credit for now16:29
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SRabbelierdurin42: for now? xD16:38
durin42SRabbelier: long term, the hg community will likely own this16:39
SRabbelierdurin42: aah, that would be good :)16:39
durin42It'll probably ship with mercurial, and be an hgext.git= away16:40
SRabbelierdurin42: +many :)16:43
* lh makes note - bug james levy 17:38
SRabbelierlh: what about?17:40
SRabbelierlh: I've talked to him today17:40
lhSRabbelier: i have questions about how feeds work17:42
lhyou use the twitter yah?17:43
SRabbelierlh: yes17:43
lhso with twitter it is possible to aggregate tweets from multiple users provided they include a particular hash tag17:43
lhlike #gsoc17:43
lhwhat i want to know is17:43
ArthurLiulh, we have a system at debian to do that17:43
lhis it possible to aggregate tweets and dents (posts to in the same feed given current apis and tools for both systems17:44
tpbTitle: Twitter : Debian Project (at
lhArthurLiu: yes, i have the tool to do twitter in mind. :)17:44
SRabbelierArthurLiu: that's pretty damn sweet ;)17:44
lhand if it is not possible to automagically integrate feeds from both services17:44
MatthewWilkes+1 - that's awesome!17:44
lhArthurLiu: did you use17:45
SRabbelierlh: you want to pull posts from twitter and into one feed?17:45
* lh tries to find mail from erica jay17:45
lhSRabbelier: correct17:45
SRabbelierlh: hmmmm, displaying them underneath one another is not a solution?17:45
lhSRabbelier: it is. but, if we can have one stream, more sexy17:45
lhwell crap.17:46
SRabbelierlh: there's no blog widget that has that17:46
ArthurLiuit uses gpg signed messages, but it can be simplified to adapt it to our uses17:46
* lh cannot find recommended tool17:46
SRabbelierArthurLiu: I saw that, very nice17:46
lhArthurLiu: what tool did y'all use or did you roll your own?17:46
ArthurLiurolled our own17:46
ArthurLiuthe source is available17:46
lhArthurLiu: thanks.17:46
* lh wonders if requiring GPG key is overkill for our needs17:47
lhprolly not17:47
ArthurLiubut I doubt gpg is a good idea for the general population, maybe bolt in google account api ?17:47
lhArthurLiu: not a bad idea17:47
* lh makes note17:47
SRabbelierlh: but, this is not what you are referring to ;)17:48
SRabbelierlh: ArthurLiu's tool allows all of us developers to post to one twitter account17:48
lhSRabbelier: no it is not but it is good to know what tools are around for these purposes17:48
SRabbelierlh: what you want, is to have multiple feeds aggregated into one feed17:48
lhSRabbelier: correct.17:48
SRabbelierlh: that's true, of course17:48
ArthurLiualthough I imagine that a much simpler idea would be to have students type in their twitter/identica account into their melange profile17:48
SRabbelierlh: we could do it server-side btw17:49
ArthurLiuand have an app follow them and RT when triggered by a hashtag17:49
SRabbelierlh: fetch both feeds, and 'zip' them17:49
SRabbelierlh: and then serve the result as one feed17:49
lhArthurLiu: it would be awesome if this could be done automatically, i am thinking of a way to do this now even though it means much manual adding.17:49
* lh shudders at the manual adding, takes heart17:49
SRabbelierlh: but that would put extra load on our servers to serve those feeds17:49
lhSRabbelier: i think that using twitter/'s servers is good for this.17:50
ArthurLiuthere shouldn't be any manual adding, twitter/identica APIs are pretty good for this purpose17:50
SRabbelierlh: what you should be doing is poking ;)17:50
SRabbelierlh: for them to add a feature to pull in tweets :P17:51
SRabbelierlh: (assuming you were serious about wanting to use twitter/'s servers for this)17:51
lhSRabbelier: afaik they want to. :)17:51
SRabbelierlh: just no manpower to code that ?17:51
lhyou assume the twitter gods want this to be done.17:51
lhSRabbelier: ^^17:51
* lh should really just ask evan17:52
ArthurLiuSRabbelier, would it too hard to code such an autoretweeter ?17:52
SRabbelierArthurLiu: From the Melange side, or the twitter/ side?17:52
ArthurLiuI wouldn't count on twitter/identica to do that17:53
lhso you can use to publish to twitter17:54
lhi do17:54
* lh avoids twitter like the plague17:54
lhtime. sink.17:54
lhso it is possible that if a gsocer is only an user that we could still capture their feeds pretty easily if they were wiling to open a twitter account17:55
lhi happen to think this idea sucks a bit though17:55
lh1) if you are die hard free software, you are not going to use twitter17:55
lhemphasis on die hard free sw17:55
lh2) this forces creation of yet another account (barf)17:55
lhso much easier to munge the streams17:56
lhwhat happens when someone is an user who updates twitter via identi.ca17:56
ArthurLiuI sense an infinite loop :D17:57
lhdo we get their tweets twice then (once via twitter and once via that then pushes to twitter)17:57
lhi like not this idea.17:57
lhso ......17:57
lhare we stuck with twitter since that's the one with the largest user base?17:57
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ArthurLiuI didn't follow the beginning, but basically, we want to aggregate gsoc students submitted tweets/dents and broadcast it somewhere, somehow ?17:59
lhArthurLiu: correct, while avoiding17:59
lh1) duplicate messages17:59
lh2) strain on servers due to limitations around GAE17:59
lh3) manual add process (nice to have but think this is not feasible at this time)17:59
lhand we would like to broadcast on front page of socghop.appspot.com18:00
ArthurLiu1) can be avoided through duplicate detection (largest common substring, etc)18:00
ArthurLiu2) should be ok because we can have either rss or api streams of an hashtag search or 'all friends' feed18:01
lhhashtag search seems most sane because we do not want to aggregate all tweets, just gsoc related tweets. does not seem useful to know that i am eating soup, for example.18:01
ArthurLiu3) the hashtag approach would be the simplest for students18:01
Erantomnomnom soup.18:02
SRabbelierErant: lots tasteh18:02
lhArthurLiu: correct. however on 318:02
Erantlh: Out of sheer interest, does anyone genuinely want to know what you're eating, and when?18:02
ArthurLiuof course we want to detect when someone retweets an hashtagged tweet18:02
lhErant: this is a use case example from twitter's website, i sh*t you not18:03
* lh thinks that is truly bad marketing, but ok18:03
lhafaik most tools that do exist to aggregate tweets require you to "own" the aggregate group and to add people to the group18:03
ArthurLiuthis can be done automatically18:04
lhif this can be done simply and effectively without the need for manual intervention18:04
lhoh hallelujah18:04
lhArthurLiu: tell me more18:04
ArthurLiujust get a list of accounts through a melange profile field18:04
ArthurLiuand use the twitter api to mass follow/unfollow18:04
ArthurLiuactually, you don't really need to follow18:04
ArthurLiujust have an hashtag search feed and cross it with the accounts list18:05
lhArthurLiu: i love this idea.18:05
ArthurLiuto only retain gsoc students18:05
lhlove it!18:05
* lh wants mentors too18:05
lhy'all have a debian tweet stream18:05
ArthurLiubut it's good practice for these bots to follow those that are retweeted18:05
lhwhy not just add that to the aggregator18:05
lhi take it there is a good reason, such as not all groups have these tweet streams18:06
ArthurLiuonly a subgroup of debian developers actually use our twitter aggregator18:06
lhthat is a good reason right there18:06
ArthurLiuactually are like "what's this twitter stuff, get off my lawn!"18:06
lhlolz18:07 ftw18:07
lhor um, like, what's a microblog dude and why do i need one?18:07
* lh silently curses social media18:07
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lhArthurLiu: please to comment here18:12
tpb<> (at
lhjames crook wants your input18:12
* lh goes back to triage18:12
ArthurLiulet me see this18:12
MatthewWilkesHmm, to clarify, is #melangedev now officially lurker-friendly?18:14
lhMatthewWilkes: lurk away my dear friend18:14
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: go wild18:15
* MatthewWilkes does as SRabbelier instructs18:15
MatthewWilkeshmm, I think that's the last channel I can join before my client starts wrapping the tabs18:16
SRabbelierMatthewWilkes: lol18:16
MatthewWilkesI clealy spend too much time on IRC!18:16
ArthurLiulh, yes, he contacted me a few days ago, asking for the list of students I scrapped, but it was incomplete (openicc and metabrainz missing for example)18:17
lhMatthewWilkes: holy. crap.18:18
lhArthurLiu: because they have not created org home pages yet.18:18
ArthurLiusince you have a csv of everything, just excise whatever should be kept private and put it somewhere ?18:18
lhgood to know.18:18
ArthurLiuthat's all james wanted to know afaik18:18
lhArthurLiu: this is also possible, but it doesn't really solve the problem of needing to search in the application easily.18:19
MatthewWilkeslh: They're all needed.  All of them ;)18:19
lheh, whatever, putting out on the dev list18:19
lhMatthewWilkes: i believe you.18:19
ArthurLiuSRabbelier, can't we do a basic substring search in the public fields of the profiles ?18:20
SRabbelierArthurLiu: ?18:21
tpb<> (at
ArthurLiuthey wanted to search for a student profile give name18:21
lhor mentor18:22
lhor chicken18:22
lhall system users :)18:22
lhSRabbelier: ping. patch reviewed?
tpb<> (at
SRabbelierlh: working on it, had some hg hickups in trying to fix my earlier failure18:28
lhSRabbelier: ok, all good.18:28
* lh goes on to next issue18:28
SRabbelierlh: ok :)18:29
* lh distributes tasty iced tea18:29
lhdude, when did we add patch received to the issue tracker and who do i hug for adding it?18:41
* lh updates issue tracking wiki page on melange18:41
SRabbelierlh: me did18:50
SRabbelierMek: and I mailed the list about adding it too18:50
SRabbelierlh: 4 days ago, subject of mail "New issue tracker status" <--- you replied!18:51
SRabbelierlh: have that Amnesia checked ;)18:51
* lh hugs SRabbelier18:51
SRabbelierlh: yay ^^18:52
lhSRabbelier: so many emails, so few brain cells18:52
SRabbelierlh: heheh :P18:52
SRabbelierlh: reviewed and commited19:00
lhSRabbelier: you are the hotness.19:00
SRabbelierlh: durin42 has been a great help in learning how to use hg19:01
lhdurin42: fantastic. thank you much. :)19:02
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* SRabbelier is off to bed19:39
SRabbelierg'night all19:39
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