Sunday, 2016-07-03

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mithroI'm alive! (kinda)02:41
mithrotumbleweed: I'll be around for the next 8-10 hours I think02:41
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xfxfmithro: so MCEC are being a bit painful (pycon au venue), they're insisting that we shouldn't use HDMI2USB as a passthrough device and they'll supply a scan converter that will give us a HDMI out feed03:12
xfxfthe only way they're willing to proceed is if i basically make them entirely non-responsible for no problems, which is rubbish03:13
xfxfjust checking with you, you absolutely want them as passthrough devices, yes?03:13
mithroxfxf: yes03:13
xfxfare you going to be around to help if we have issues?03:13
mithroxfxf: We will provide them with a 720p HDMI feed03:13
xfxfbecause what they're saying is making me a bit nervous03:13
xfxfyes, i've been through this 5 times03:13
xfxfthey're only willing to proceed if they're taking zero responsibility for issues03:14
xfxfi've told them i'm happy if that's limited to just the HDMI, but ugh03:14
xfxftis fine, i'll keep pushing03:14
xfxfi already tested the box on their systems, worked perfectly03:14
xfxfi have a EDID dump if you want it03:15
mithroxfxf: Why do they even know about the HDMI2USB stuff? You should tell them they are getting the HDMI feed which is their responsibility to get onto the projection screens?03:15
xfxfbecause we don't get access to the rooms until 5am in the morning, so i have to be explicit about how i need things laid out03:15
xfxfwe get access to 1x of the rooms 1 day before though for testing03:16
mithroxfxf: you have a HDMI feed from the podium right?03:16
mithroxfxf: so?03:16
xfxfi'm not sure you're understanding the implication they're giving03:16
xfxfbut it's fine, i'll just push back03:16
xfxfi'm just not going to be able to solve issues with the devices on my own, so wanted to check you'll be around03:17
xfxfi'm fine taking responsibility as long as i know we can solve the problems03:17
xfxfi'm trying to avoid an issue where they completely stop responding to actual AV issues unrelated to the HDMI2USB because 'we are not responsible anymore'03:17
mithroxfxf: How are they suggesting otherwise?03:18
xfxfthey want to use their own scan converter / splitter system which will give us a feed up the back03:18
xfxfto be clear, i don't actually want to do that at all03:19
xfxfbut i keep telling them no, they keep pushing it03:19
xfxfwe're up to conversation 5 or 6 now03:19
mithroxfxf: Why would they think we want a feed up the back?03:19
xfxfprobably because they're used to how most people do this03:19
mithroxfxf: well, I'll leave it in your hands03:23
xfxfyou haven't answered the question i was asking :)  will you be around to help specifically with HDMI2USB issues?03:23
mithroxfxf: but it basically sounds like you've given them to much knowledge under the expectation that it would be helpful and it's backfired03:23
mithroxfxf: yes03:23
mithroxfxf: but I don't think you should be counting on that03:24
xfxfokay, so that makes me nervous03:24
xfxfwe know from LCA the devices aren't at a "just works" state yet03:24
xfxfit's at a "mostly works with caveats" state03:24
xfxfand it isn't a case of too much information.  given our limited access, i booked a time with them to go in specifically to test the devices outputted through their systems OK.  i think not doing that would have been bad.03:26
xfxfre issues, if they're things we can resolve through a power cycle, i'm not phased - i'm just recalling situations where the devices completely stopped working and we had to swap them with different ones, some laptops causing them to hang, etc03:27
xfxfi can setup a HDMI2USB in the corner of an organisers room and have people come and test their device, but we need to have a way to action fixes if we discover issues, or that testing is for moot03:27
mithroxfxf: If this was a piece of proprietary hardware what would you be doing?03:28
xfxfthe proprietary hardware i have (blackmagic devices) don't have these issues03:29
mithroxfxf: What issues?03:29
xfxfi'm using HDMI2USB because i believe in its cause, and want to support open hardware + you - not because they're the solution that has the highest compatibility03:30
xfxfthe things we hit @ LCA03:30
xfxfwhich i believe are totally resolvable03:31
xfxfi just don't solve them myself :)03:31
xfxfer, d/don't/can't/03:31
xfxfagain, things that require a power cycle - not phased03:31
xfxfit was more issues where we had opsis's stop working entirely or had people's laptop cause them to lock up03:31
xfxfi have no idea if that'll be any better now with newer firmware?03:31
xfxfthe stop working thing seems like hardware to me - like i've got two opsis's here which just don't work properly, systems never see them on the USB bus properly03:32
xfxfbut they show a test pattern03:33
xfxfbut without USB can't actually poke at it to test anything else03:33
mithroxfxf: I'd like you to come up with a plan which has action items you would like seen done03:33
xfxfit's difficult for me to give you a concrete action plan when i'm not in a position to test this with hundreds of laptops over the next few weeks03:34
xfxfmy empirical evidence is identical to yours03:35
xfxfi'm not sure i can provide much more than that03:35
mithroxfxf: At the moment you are saying "I have worries that things won't work, please tell me that they will"03:37
xfxfno, it's just more that i'd like to ensure we have a plan so when we hit issues, we're able to resolve them, or have a viable workaround03:38
xfxfi realise you can't magically fix largely unknown things03:38
mithroxfxf: Write down a list of issues you think we might hit, I'll then see if there are things that I think are missing or not concerns and we can come up with plans on how to resolve / work around them03:41
xfxfokay, will do03:43
mithroxfxf: You can also write down a list of things you want to do before PyCon AU and I'll tell you if we can do them03:46
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cr1901_modernmithro: ping when you get the chance05:44
mithrocr1901_modern: If you are around in an hour or two, probably can chat then05:46
mithrocr1901_modern: I saw you said something about the HDMI frequency counter stuff05:46
cr1901_modernmithro: Yes, among other things05:47
cr1901_modernminispartan6 can be properly detected by my NVIDIA graphics card, but the driver doesn't like it/keeps resetting05:47
mithrocr1901_modern: Last you mentioned that you couldn't get a clock from the computer on the HDMI input?05:47
cr1901_modernmithro: I was able to get a clock input when I removed "just the EDID" and clocking modules and uncommented the HDMI input. But there is no way the frequencies I'm reading are in proper range (2-3MHz)05:48
cr1901_modernI'm measuring the pixel_clock*105:49
mithrocr1901_modern: What is pixel clock for 640x480?05:49
tpbTitle: VGA Signal Timing (at
cr1901_modernIdeally? Or what I'm measuring?05:49
mithroLooks like roughly 30MHz05:49
cr1901_modernIt's 25.125Mhz05:49
mithrocr1901_modern: yeah - you should be getting the pixel clock05:49
cr1901_modern25.175*... I was close :P05:50
cr1901_modernMy current theory (will test later today) is that the laptop *is* in fact sending 2-3MHz b/c the display adapter driver keeps malfunctioning05:51
mithrocr1901_modern: There isn't much debugging you can do regarding the EDID problem on Windows05:51
mithrocr1901_modern: Attach litescope or something similar to the I2C lines and see what is going on05:51
mithrocr1901_modern: If you where on Linux you'll probably find it thinks there are lots of hotplug events going on, or it is reading a corrupt EDID or something....05:52
cr1901_modernmithro: I'll see what I can do re: Linux. Unfortunately, the HDMI output is tied to the NVIDIA card05:53
cr1901_modern(I would NOT be using NVIDIA if external monitors we physically connected to the card)05:54
tpbTitle: EDID Related Code · timvideos/HDMI2USB Wiki · GitHub (at
cr1901_modernmithro: So, what I'm seeing, sans the "I'm on Windows" bug, is expected in a sense :P?05:56
cr1901_modern(what I'm seeing == "the display driver doesn't like the new dev board")05:56
mithrocr1901_modern: No, I thought we had fixed all the EDID issues - but we have experienced similar style problems before05:56
mithrocr1901_modern: Make sure you have the EDID lines around the right way too, mixing up the clock+data often gives weird results :P05:57
mithrocr1901_modern: There are probably tools on Windows for reading the EDID from the monitor that you could test too05:57
mithrocr1901_modern: btw you do need to populate the EDID memory with valid data05:58
cr1901_modernmithro: There are, unfortunately, they go through the registry. There are no provisions to read from the monitor directly from user code05:58
tpbTitle: HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware/edid.c at master · timvideos/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
mithroMight take a look at this too05:59
tpbTitle: HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware/ at b1a554cc76a5da36c7182e9aad15b9c7e8b282a9 · timvideos/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
cr1901_modernmithro: The EDID is most likely valid. I am able to get the board to show up as a third monitor, called "HDMI2USB", with 800x600 resolution05:59
mithro# This SoC was used to debug EDID transactions between video sources and the board.05:59
mithrocr1901_modern: It would be good if we got callbacks / notification about EDID state changes06:00
cr1901_modernAfter a while, I can get the board to "behave" for short periods, where I have literally three monitors :P. But the input frequency is wrong.06:00
cr1901_modernBut it's NOT zero, which is something :P.06:00
tpbTitle: Generate a message on the UART when EDID state changes · Issue #39 · timvideos/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
cr1901_modernmithro: Hardly all hope is lost. :D06:01
cr1901_modernmithro: "It would be good if we got callbacks / notification about EDID state changes" <--- I can do that06:01
cr1901_modernWhat I could also do is try one of hamsterwork's demos and see what happenbs06:02
cr1901_modernmithro: Additionally, when I build the "full HMDI input", not the abbreviated version with just the EDID, the CPU will crash occassionally. And ONCE I got a memory check failure when rebooting the board06:03
mithrocr1901_modern: There could be a couple of causes of that06:04
mithrocr1901_modern: _florent_ was saying that you can't execute from memory while also DMAing to/from it06:04
mithrocr1901_modern: but because the minispartan6 doesn't have enough block ram, we need to do that06:05
mithrocr1901_modern: so that might be the problem....06:05
mithrocr1901_modern: _florent_ has just finished doing a rebase of our stuff onto litex which is based off the latest misoc/migen06:06
mithrocr1901_modern: and using litedram instead - which should fix that problem06:06
cr1901_modernmithro: I thought block RAM was used for cache? So there's pretty much a guarantee you'll be grabbing code from DRAM, even during DMA?06:07
mithrocr1901_modern: unknown06:07
cr1901_modernI'll talk to _florent_ about this when he's around. I'm a little bit confused about the memory hierarchy.06:07
mithrocr1901_modern: I'm pretty sure there is block ram uses for cache06:08
cr1901_modernJust makes sense :P06:08
mithrobut I also seem to remeber seeing a "l2_cache=False" or something similar along those lines06:08
cr1901_modernmithro: As I understand it, MiSoC has provisions for onboard ROM, onboard RAM, and offboard RAM. The onboard RAM is separate from the cache, which is provided by the CPU source files. However, I don't know any designs which use both the onboard and offboard RAM simultaneously06:10
cr1901_modernmithro: Want some good news now :P?06:11
mithrocr1901_modern: sure?06:14
cr1901_modernmithro: Once these bugs are fixed, I believe I figured out a way to make input and output work simultaneously on minispartan606:14
mithrocr1901_modern: great!06:15
mithrocr1901_modern: I had some ideas on how to do that, but hadn't actually gotten around to trying anything06:16
cr1901_modernmithro: I believe we can replace the PLL used to generate the system frequency with two DCMs; one DCM synthesizes 5x's frequency, the other takes in the 5x's frequency and will shift it by 270 degrees. And DCMs have provisions to sync the outputs of two of them to each other06:16
cr1901_modernwell 5/2*06:16
mithrocr1901_modern: hrm?06:18
cr1901_modernmithro: Do you know what a DCM is?06:18
mithrocr1901_modern: yes06:19
cr1901_modernAhhh, so what are your concerns then :)?06:19
mithrocr1901_modern: oh, you are talking about generating the RAM/system clock using the DCM06:19
cr1901_modernYes We most certainly need a PLL for the input b/c the  input *will* deviate from ideal. Not sure about the output, but ain't broke don't fix06:20
mithroWe have 2 PLLs06:20
mithro1 for the input, 1 for the system?06:20
cr1901_modernNo, there's a PLL for the output as well06:21
mithroI don't think we actually need a PLL for the output side of things, but might be wrong...06:21
cr1901_modernWhy do we need a PLL for the system? Or are you just describing the current setup?06:21
mithrocr1901_modern: generate a stable clock from the oscillator?06:22
mithrocr1901_modern: I'm no expert on clocking :P06:22
cr1901_modernA DCM can generate a stable clock. It just can't phase lock its output to an unknown input06:23
mithrocr1901_modern: The PLL might be needed on the output to make the SERDES work within the jitter requirements or to allow the ability to program the output frequency?06:24
cr1901_modernmithro: Not sure about the second point (a PLL will lose lock if input is not close to ideal output, and idk how to change that set point), but the first point makes sense.06:26
cr1901_modernI remember you saying that there's benefits to having more than 2 PLLs, but I can't remember if you said that in the context of "minispartan is scarce on resources", or "some gateware beyond the base HDMI2USB" requires it.06:26
cr1901_modernor maybe both :P06:26
mithrocr1901_modern: well, you need a PLL per input06:26
mithrocr1901_modern: if we can make the system work without using an PLLs allowing 4 inputs, that would be awesome06:26
mithrocr1901_modern: we may been a PLL for stable clocking stuff on the DDR....06:27
mithrocr1901_modern: basically, PLLs are really limited on the Spartan 6 series :(06:27
cr1901_modernmithro: I don't THINK no PLLs are possible. The input will require it b/c the PLL will need to deal with deviations from ideal input, and a DCM is not capable of doing this.06:28
mithrocr1901_modern: one of the biggest limiting factors in our designs06:28
cr1901_modernI am not prepared to write an All-Digital PLL either :(06:28
cr1901_modern(Which, isn't going to work anyway now that I think about it, thanks to the multiplier)06:28
mithrocr1901_modern: We set PLL stuff here ->
tpbTitle: HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware/pll.c at master · timvideos/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
cr1901_modernIn any case, I think we should leave the output PLL alone for now, assume inputs require PLLs, and convert the PLL that's used to drive the system clock into two DCMs.06:29
cr1901_modernThat's my recommendation anyway ;D06:30
mithrocr1901_modern: I'm happy with anything which makes it work :)06:30
cr1901_modernI'll make a separate branch for replacing the DCM in my own personal source tree. I'm not comfortable making any more changes than I have to while minispartan is crashing and my graphics driver hates the HDMI2USB :P06:32
cr1901_modernSo... that's the current status of things. Sorry it's been slow going.06:32
mithrocr1901_modern: have you tried removing the output and just keeping the input?06:32
cr1901_modernmithro: Yes, currently I have to thanks to the aforementioned PLL woes06:33
mithrocr1901_modern: It seems like working with that should be good enough for now?06:33
mithrocr1901_modern: and focus on getting the HDMI input working?06:33
cr1901_modernmithro: Oh wait, are you talking about the "full blown hdmi_in" module, or just the bare minimum EDID module?06:33
mithrocr1901_modern: Yeah, I was meaning a full blow hdmi_in module06:35
cr1901_modernI recall you saying "just instantiate an EDID module" and call it a day. Unfortunately, Xilinx will bitch if I don't include the clocking module and the datacapture modules as well. The clocking module requires a PLL. So it probably doesn't make sense to "just" do EDID.06:35
mithrocr1901_modern: That was another potential idea06:35
mithrocr1901_modern: hopefully _florent_ will be around later so we can chat about the rebased stuff - it sounds like that might help solve some of the weirdness you are getting....06:36
cr1901_modernmithro: That's fine, I have the output disabled for now. But just remember that RIGHT now, input/output simultaneously do not work on minispartan06:36
mithrobe back in 30 minutes - going to get some food06:37
cr1901_modernand input doesn't work either for that matter :)06:37
cr1901_modernalright sounds good. I'll be around06:37
mithrosab_123: I believe I have replied to everything outstanding07:55
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sab_123mithro, okay08:18
tumbleweedmithro: I'm out sick, but maybe someone else can do some remote debugging with you08:34
mithrotumbleweed: ahh, that sucks08:35
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mithrotumbleweed: What version of the firmware were you flashing?08:35
mithrotumbleweed: It sounds like the EEPROM might be corrupted...08:35
tumbleweedmithro: c4646dd6ad5ac3be4edb05f08d5f72aa2fcba8d5 (something I had tagged as known-good)08:36
tumbleweed(that's a prebuilt commit)08:36
mithroI had planned to work on the FX2 EEPROM stuff today, but it doesn't seem likely that I'll get to it08:37
mithrotumbleweed: do you know if anyone has attempted to look at packaging modeswitch at all?08:37
mithrocr1901_modern: was there anything more you wanted to discuss?09:22
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ssk1328mithro: Ping!10:01
mithrossk1328: pong! I'm alive barely10:08
ssk1328mithro: I actually don't have question as such to ask right now. But I had pushed in a lot of repositories last week, which are yet to be reviewed.10:10
mithrossk1328: okay10:10
ssk1328mithro: ALso we missed our weekly meeting this week10:10
mithrossk1328: can you send me an email with what you want me to look at / review and I'll try and get to it tomorrow10:11
cr1901_modernmithro: At the moment, no. After fixing the input woes and trying to put sysclk generation onto a DCM, I'll get started with data islands if you wish.10:22
cr1901_modernmithro: When input woes are fixed, I have questions about ci.c. Unfortunately, I don't remember what they were right now XD. So I'll get back to you on that.10:24
mithrocr1901_modern: okay10:24
cr1901_modern(It was related to the defines used to activate certain status messages and debugging info, and me having trouble getting some of them- outputs in particular- to work)10:25
cr1901_modernmithro: Actually one last quick q...10:27
cr1901_modernShould I be worried that status returns a memory bandwidth of about 16-32Mb/sec10:27
cr1901_modern? That sounds kinda low...10:28
mithrocr1901_modern: Is the output enabled?10:28
mithrocr1901_modern: Then the memory bandwidth will be ~010:28
cr1901_modernddr: read:   24Mbps  write:    0Mbps  all:   24Mbps10:28
cr1901_modernI assume that means MegaBITS per second?10:28
mithrocr1901_modern: I think the fact it isn't zero is because you are executing the stuff from ddr ram?10:29
mithrocr1901_modern: This would be a _florent_ question I think....10:29
cr1901_modernAlright, will ask him when he's around. Certainly possible that I'm just not actually exhausting bandwidth. I've discussed all I've needed to for now :).10:31
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mithroPlease of the devil ;) (_florent_)10:42
cr1901_modernHey _florent_, are you there?10:51
cr1901_modernYour presence is requested10:51
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ssk1328mithro: Is there a way to bypass 30mins of make gateware, to test small changes in gateware code12:06
ssk1328mithro: I need this specifically for testing float16 arithmetic with lm3212:07
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mithrossk1328: use the video mixer target rather than the hdmi2usb target12:38
mithrossk1328: that will cut it down to a lot smaller12:38
mithrossk1328: actually, use the base target12:38
mithrossk1328: that should get it down to about 5-10 minutes12:40
shenkimithro: hello12:53
shenkii was setting up the hdmi2usb environment on my new laptop12:53
shenkiand we don't handle secure boot very well12:54
mithroshenki: hrm?12:54
shenkidkms tries to install the vizzini module, fails due to module signing, and then the tty goes all screwy12:54
tpbTitle: Script to get all the enjoy-digital repos and set up a conda environment for using them in · GitHub (at
mithroshenki: well, if you got that uart change upstream, we could ditch that :P12:55
shenkii tried to work out how to discover secure boot mode, but the tool to read efi variables it isn't installed by default12:55
shenkiyeah, i knew you would say that12:55
shenkii thought the same thing :D12:55
mithroshenki: :-P12:55
mithroshenki: You mean disable secure boot mode?12:55
shenkidkms offers that as an option when installing12:55
shenkii didn't want to do that12:56
shenkii was thinking we could detect secure boot and skip the kernel module install step12:56
mithroshenki: well, its required for the Atlys at the moment12:56
mithroshenki: so skipping it just gives you a non-working system12:56
shenkii can't do atlys dev on this machine12:56
shenkibut i have plenty of other boards12:57
mithroshenki: you could make it so if the BOARD= isn't set to the Atlys, then it skips installing the vizzini module or something?12:57
shenkiok, i'll do that12:57
mithroshenki: I was working on updating the docs for setup at
tpbTitle: GitHub - mithro/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware at docs-scripts-update (at
tpbTitle: HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware/scripts at docs-scripts-update · mithro/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
mithroshenki: there are also much better udev rules and improved modeswitch tool at
tpbTitle: GitHub - mithro/HDMI2USB-mode-switch: Tool for switching boards supported by HDMI2USB firmware between multiple different modes (programming, webcam, etc). (at
mithroshenki: I'd like to update HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware makefile to use the modeswitch tool12:59
mithroshenki: so you can just type "make load" after doing a "make load-fx2" and it'll push it back into the jtag mode13:00
mithrobut again, not enough time13:00
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mithroshenki: _florent_ has almost finished the rebase work which hopefully solves a bunch of issues on the miniSpartan13:07
mithroshenki: cr1901_modern has also been playing with the miniSpartan6+13:07
shenkigood to hear13:08
shenkii want to write a spi-romulator in migen on the ms613:09
shenkiso i can do boot testing of ARM systems13:09
mithroshenki: What is a spi-romulator, you mean something which pretends to be a SPI flash?13:09
shenkiwithout risk of bricking13:09
shenkii got the term from someone else:
tpbTitle: GitHub - bunnie/novena-spi-romulator: SPI romulator (at
mithroshenki: I believe the coreboot guys have already created something like this?13:10
shenkiusing migen?13:10
shenkianyway, even if they have13:10
shenkithe purpose is to write migen13:10
mithroshenki: I'm all for you writing more migen :)13:11
mithroshenki: I'd love for you to get back to the Linux porting stuff sometime too13:12
shenkii think i want to get the uart driver done first13:12
shenkithen linux porting13:12
shenkido we need uboot?13:13
shenkii dont think we do. but ive been doing a bunch of uboot hacking recently13:13
mithroshenki: we need uboot if it means you can hack on it at work ;)13:13
mithroshenki: It has always been unclear to me what uboot provides :P13:14
shenkiin our case, nothing13:15
mithroshenki: Do they have a "fileformat" for doing things like storing stuff in SPI flash or something?13:15
shenkiwe're currently going through that now :)13:16
shenkii think we will use FIT images13:16
mithroFIT images?13:16
mithroshenki: :P13:16
tpbTitle: SPI flash should have proper file system or something similar · Issue #253 · timvideos/HDMI2USB-misoc-firmware · GitHub (at
shenkiU-Boot's primary image format is FIT (Flat Image Tree), a very flexible, structured container format which supports multiple kernel images, device trees, ram disks, etc13:17
shenki(i dont really know myself - i will learn this week)13:17
mithroshenki: I believe when _florent_ finishes the rebase we should be able to have Ethernet enabled all the time - which means things like tftp booting new lm32 firmware13:18
shenkiuboot could/would replace the "BIOS" that the project currently uses13:18
shenkisimple menu system, chainloading from flash/serial/net, simple tests13:18
shenkithe upside is we don't have to maintain code13:19
shenkidownside is more complexity than the current code13:19
mithroshenki: when looking into FIT, for our use case we need the image to start with an arbitrary binary blob13:20
shenkiyou mean the start of flash?13:20
mithroshenki: yeah13:20
shenkiok. what is that blob?13:20
mithrothe FPGA gateware13:21
shenkiok. and that needs to be at the start of flash? or just a fixed/known location?13:21
mithroshenki: has to be at position zero13:21
mithroshenki: ideally we should be using MultiBoot in the future ->
mithroshenki: which is basically where the first (minimal) gateware verifies the proper gateware and then gets the FPGA to load that instead13:23
shenkiah yep. that sounds good13:23
mithroshenki: so you keep around a failsafe gateware which you boot too if the normal gateware is borked13:24
shenki"golden image"13:24
shenkikinda, not really i guess13:24
mithroIt's more useful for us if we want to have multi gateware which setup things differently13:25
mithroWell, I'm going to walk home, then eat some dinner13:33
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